Do people realise this is a new game?

[Dantragk]

The people saying that gamers now aren't willing to give it a chance are missing a very huge point. I believe that as long as a game has a very strong foundation that people will give it plenty of time and will be patient. But TOR does not have a strong foundation. That is why I'm not willing to wait around and keep "giving it time".

[knightblaster]

 

A develloper now has the choice: do I want to provide something for that shallow ma/ess (which happens to present the biggest customer potential) or do I want to provide quality that will only attract a few?

 

Which is why I say that the best chance for innovation is indie developers with smaller budget games.

 

When you're spending 100m+ making a game, clearly you can't have as your goal attracting "a few". The shareholders would have your head for that, and rightly so -- you're not a charity, you're in business to make a return on your investment as quickly as possible. This is the key problem with AAA-budget MMOs. They are really only cost/time justified if they hit the ball out of the park -- otherwise they become a sunk development cost that doesn't pay for itself for quite some time.

 

If you're a company like EA, you're basically looking for an MMO in your portfolio that will provide a substantial steady revenue stream to complement the "lumpy" revenue that they get from box sales (which is most of their revenue). That's why they're so interested in having a successful MMO -- in part to compete with their rival Activision, but also in part to get a piece of the action in terms of having regular revenues from a game -- that is kind of the El Dorado of game publishing, really. So a company like EA is not going to "settle for" a hundred thousand subscribers in a game that took 200 million to make - it doesn't pencil quickly enough to make that a good use of the company's working capital. It's looking for a big hit, which means swinging for the seats, which means Warhammer and TOR.

 

The only hope for "core" MMO fans is indie developers, I think.

[marshalleck]

The only hope for "core" MMO fans is indie developers, I think.

 

Not really a new insight, but true.

[Goreson]

You don't get the point with these 7 years...

 

It's like this: Current lv cap in WoW? Still 85? Doesn't matter. So you can lv 35 more levels in WoW which is still faster than leveling in swtor. So, your maxlv, what can you do? In WoW, you have some raids for lv 85, other things like dailies, dungeons, reputation, achievements etc but nobody cares anymore about any content from 60-80 besides leveling there. All these 7 years of content are unsued for the most part exept some achievement junkies that will take a day or two to complete some grinding stuff which is not really considered content.

 

It's the small things people care and complain about... the obvious things, lfg tool or at least a lv 50 worldwide char like Rift had it in the beginning, addons or at least more sutomization options for the UI (Rift had that, too and it was a somewhat recent launch). Swtor lacks all the small obvious things and is completely out of date, this 2012, the programming standart is more like 2004 at best.

 

Say you want to start making a basketball game with the NBA and whatnot, you'd also have to compete with 2K, and I asure you nobody will give a damn how 2K did things 7 years ago, they will compare your new game to their new game and if you'r is like theirs was 7 years ago, what's the point? For the most part this game still stays alive because of the story and because it's Star Wars, they need to work very hard in order to compete or give it up and just cater to the SW fans, which will probably still beprofitable enough, but they can't compete with WoW (and I think it'S their intention to equal their sub.numbers some day) by staying 7 years behind all the time.. hell, this game is programmed worse than Rift which was made by a way smaller company with very little budget, this is unaccaptable, heads would roll if I had anything to say about it @ BW for failing so hard thus far.

 

Hm... can you please educate me what people are actually doing then in WoW?

(Sorry, I could never be bothered to go past the character creation screen the 2 times I actually had WoW on my PCs over the last 6 years... Instead I fell back upon pre-WoW games I played as well as some other newer games...)

 

I mean IF (as you claim) they are really just using the same (updated) content the game had 7 years ago... wouldn't that be a *** boring? 'Hey, let us kill boss X! Didn't we do that last week? And 3 times the month before? And 12 times over the 3 months before that? And 48 times the year before? ...'

 

A game usually progresses over time: Updates, expansions, events... I bet that if you get a gamer today who played at the initial release of WoW and just give him the base game (no expansions!) he will not stick with WoW for more than 30 - 60 days! Because there is probably very little changed in the base content... and all addition to the content could not be taken into consideration just as obviously you don't allow SWTOR to mature over 7 years, our bet won't allow WoW to go outside the initial release...

[JerokTalram]

You don't get the point with these 7 years...

 

It's like this: Current lv cap in WoW? Still 85? Doesn't matter. So you can lv 35 more levels in WoW which is still faster than leveling in swtor. So, your maxlv, what can you do? In WoW, you have some raids for lv 85, other things like dailies, dungeons, reputation, achievements etc but nobody cares anymore about any content from 60-80 besides leveling there. All these 7 years of content are unsued for the most part exept some achievement junkies that will take a day or two to complete some grinding stuff which is not really considered content.

 

It's the small things people care and complain about... the obvious things, lfg tool or at least a lv 50 worldwide char like Rift had it in the beginning, addons or at least more sutomization options for the UI (Rift had that, too and it was a somewhat recent launch). Swtor lacks all the small obvious things and is completely out of date, this 2012, the programming standart is more like 2004 at best.

 

Say you want to start making a basketball game with the NBA and whatnot, you'd also have to compete with 2K, and I asure you nobody will give a damn how 2K did things 7 years ago, they will compare your new game to their new game and if you'r is like theirs was 7 years ago, what's the point? For the most part this game still stays alive because of the story and because it's Star Wars, they need to work very hard in order to compete or give it up and just cater to the SW fans, which will probably still beprofitable enough, but they can't compete with WoW (and I think it'S their intention to equal their sub.numbers some day) by staying 7 years behind all the time.. hell, this game is programmed worse than Rift which was made by a way smaller company with very little budget, this is unaccaptable, heads would roll if I had anything to say about it @ BW for failing so hard thus far.

 

All I'm saying is it takes time to add features. Just because it's 7 years later doesn't mean that SWTOR had the development time to include 7 years of new features that Wow has had. Wow has had 7 years to add those features sure they also spent time on new content. My point is you can't expect a new MMO to have everything other established MMO have. Period.

 

As for Rift, yes they had more features but they have far less content.

 

Personally I would prefer a game to spend time on content before addons like a LFG tool.

 

Now the one feature they probably should have included in launch was a customizable UI. I was surprised when I played the beta and couldn't move stuff around. It was something that I expected because it's been in every MMO I've ever played prior to SWTOR.

Edited February 12, 2012 by JerokTalram

[Goreson]

It may be a new MMO, but its the same ol, same ol, "big budget" MMO, and hardly feels "new" at all. And now, they add more of the same 'ol... great!

 

I've done all this.

 

For me it boring and tired.

 

Theres others to play that step outside the box some.

 

Please name 5 (five) that ARE released (not beta!)

[Tic-]

Please name 5 (five) that ARE released (not beta!)

 

I believe that MMORPG.com has some 500+ MMOs listed, if you would like to check.

 

what exactly is your point?

[Goreson]

A lot of the MMO old school community know what to expect.... this game was far worse than what was expected. More bugs, glitches, balance issues than should have been released.

 

MMOers are fickle now, we expect better from a company. And it will only be tougher in the future for companies.

 

Stone wheel... wooden wheel.... metal wheel... rubber wheel.... The shape doesn't really change, but the materials used to make it does.... a stone wheel covered in rubber just doesn't cut it.

 

Right, stupid question but what gives you the 'right' to speak for the 'MMO old school community'?

 

I've been playing MMOS for close to 11 years now, and I've seen launches far worse (and yes, better as well!) in these years...

 

Maybe it's your modern day MMO community doesn't know better?

[Rynis]

OP, that's exactly how I feel! Constructive criticism is nice, but constant bashing is just annoying. If you honestly hate the game, get off the forums and stop playing! LOL

 

They are addressing issues and creating new content that I can't wait for .

 

May the force be with you!

[Lazzer]

Right, stupid question but what gives you the 'right' to speak for the 'MMO old school community'?

 

I've been playing MMOS for close to 11 years now, and I've seen launches far worse (and yes, better as well!) in these years...

 

Maybe it's your modern day MMO community doesn't know better?

 

There is the issue to some "old school" is someone that has been playing for 5 or 6 years, to me "old school" is someone that was playing MUDs or started in MMORPGs just after the Ultima Online period.

[JumperPenn]

Check youtube the core of this game is years old and it launched with not all that much and many missing, incomplete, terrible, or plain broken features. Most of which were in existence back in beta (I can only go back to October but others were testing way before that).

 

They've had plenty of time to address these things and haven't either they can't fix them, won't fix them OR have and are holding them back to have more stuff to release in their 'expansions'.

 

"It's new" isn't an excuse for poor game design when many other games have shown them the better way or at least the way you don't want to do things. For a game that is basically copying popular mmo's and not really innovating much why are there so many backward features?

 

New doesn't excuse you from releasing an inferior product because you have a hook (VO/story) as that is a gimmick that runs out when the real mmo kicks in after all that story stuff ends. Then you are basically playing any other mmo out there with less features or ones that work worse than the competition and for some people like have nothing interesting to do anymore.

[Goreson]

So to recap Goreson's fanboy defense:

 

1) it's the players' fault for not liking bugs and shoddy/outdated designs which didn't work well in other games years ago

 

2) we should be "married" to a game, in terms of commitment. Despite the fact that we're paying for a product, and not a pairing of mutual consent. I wonder if Goreson is paying someone to be his wife?

 

Ah, yes, of course, the 'fanbhoy card'...

 

I like the game, yes... because I had pretty much no real problems with it...

 

And no, obviously it's not the players' fault for not liking bugs... probably everybody would prefer to play a game the is bug-free...

 

As to 'shoddy/outdated designs'... care to elaborate?

 

But before you do so: Are you familiar with the concept of 3 factions in MMOs? Please name 5 games other than DAoC that have a system with more than 2 factions!

 

Because I'd bet on it that EVERYBODY who ever played DAoC will thell you that a 3+ faction system is the best way for MMOs...

 

And I think that makes pretty much most MMO releases over the last couple of years rather 'shoddy and outdated designs'...

 

As to marriage and paying for it... I take it you are not married? Well kiddo, me neither... but I got enough friends that are... and believe me in some way or the other they are paying by far more than $15 a month for that pleasure (or 'pleasure'?)

Edited February 12, 2012 by Sejia
edit for rude

[Goreson]

expecting the same content would be foolish, the same features is not.

 

Right... I expect all MMOs since DAoC to actually have good RvR... which is a feature...

 

so far they all failed...

 

fools!

 

Edited February 12, 2012 by Goreson

[Goreson]

I believe that MMORPG.com has some 500+ MMOs listed, if you would like to check.

 

what exactly is your point?

 

Wow, fantastic, Tic-, you can't even read your own posting when I quote it?

 

Okay, let's try that again:

 

Originally Posted by Tic-

It may be a new MMO, but its the same ol, same ol, "big budget" MMO, and hardly feels "new" at all. And now, they add more of the same 'ol... great!

 

I've done all this.

 

For me it boring and tired.

 

Theres others to play that step outside the box some.[/QUOTE]

 

So, if there are 500+ games over at MMORPG.com that 'step outside the box some', I'm sure you have no problem naming 10 then? Or 20? 50?

 

Or should you already fail at 5?

 

Waiting for reply... but not holding my breath

[Tic-]

Wow, fantastic, Tic-, you can't even read your own posting when I quote it?

 

Okay, let's try that again:

 

Originally Posted by Tic-

It may be a new MMO, but its the same ol, same ol, "big budget" MMO, and hardly feels "new" at all. And now, they add more of the same 'ol... great!

 

I've done all this.

 

For me it boring and tired.

 

Theres others to play that step outside the box some.[/QUOTE]

 

So, if there are 500+ games over at MMORPG.com that 'step outside the box some', I'm sure you have no problem naming 10 then? Or 20? 50?

 

Or should you already fail at 5?

 

Waiting for reply... but not holding my breath

 

This is going places, i can tell...

 

I can read it just fine, my point was, I'm not your secretary, if you want them go check, i'm sure with dilligence you'll come up with a few all on your own, or, you could just simply make your point..

 

personally i play EvE, started Uncharted Waters Online, and dabble in Xsyon.

 

All of which step outside the box of cookie cutter MMO #6..

 

So again, whats your point?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Tic-

[Coiffio]

I've been looking over the forums to get a feel for my class, possible alts and the game in general and am amazed how quickly people have written this game off. Its a brand new game, barely 2 months into its life. People are already writing it off and looking for the next Fix.

 

I played WoW from day 1, it was not perferct in any way shape or form, nor were any of the other games to come out since, why did WoW get given the oppurtunity to change and progress and yet none since have been afforded the same opputrunity, regardless of the game we seem to want it to be perfect from day one or thats it on to the next one?

 

I find it funny that everyone goes on about how great WoW, or EQ or SWG, etc, etc, etc were and yet you all came here. The game has some fantastic unique features, the dialogue quests and storyline being one of the biggest. Is it perfect, no, but then is any game at Launch?

 

Why are people so quick to write games off these days rather than give the developers the time to take what was, in essence, a relativly smooth and successful launch and build upon it with increasing content to cover each player types preferences, weather that be additional PvP options, extended storylines, more proffesion linked options or indeed additional FP's etc?

 

It's simple human expectation. For example, when you watch your favorite movie, then a sequel is announced, do you want that sequel to just be sub par or worse than the first movie? Same with video games, the mmo market is saturated, and every now and then a great one rises above the mediocrity. Love or hate warcraft, but you can't deny they got some things right. Naturally it set a standard, so when folks tire of wow, they want something else that can either raise the bar, or at the very minimum be as good as the competition. True swtor is a new game, but it's had time to watch the competition, learn what the players want, so there is really little excuse to be substandard. Example, how could they not have things like target of target, or an adjustable UI from launch? These seem like common things to have in this age of mmo gaming, especially when there is such a heavy focus on raiding and what not.

 

I'm all for giving a game a chance to evolve, because as you pointed out, other games were far from perfect at launch. However, as I already stated, newer games have the benefit of looking back at these games and avoiding the same pitfalls,

[marshalleck]

As to 'shoddy/outdated designs'... care to elaborate?

 

But before you do so: Are you familiar with the concept of 3 factions in MMOs? Please name 5 games other than DAoC that have a system with more than 2 factions!

 

Why should I? RVR isn't the point of this thread. I can think of other games with multiple warring/allied factions, but not all implemented exactly as DAoC did it. Anarchy Online, Fallen Earth, and Ryzom all spring to my mind immediately, and I am sure there are others.

 

Shoddy/outdated design in TOR:

 

No UI customization at all.

Animations taking priority over the action queue, e.g. delayed abilities, falling off your speeder if you try to move just as the cast bar ends, etc.

GTN interface is a mess

PVP rewards system is a convoluted mess

lol Ilum

Chat box doesn't filter junk data sent to it

 

etc. etc, basically every complaint we've all heard a million times on this forum

Edited February 12, 2012 by marshalleck

[Goreson]

The people saying that gamers now aren't willing to give it a chance are missing a very huge point. I believe that as long as a game has a very strong foundation that people will give it plenty of time and will be patient. But TOR does not have a strong foundation. That is why I'm not willing to wait around and keep "giving it time".

 

Well, obviously whether you are sticking around or not is your choice.

 

And yes, I have a problem with SWTOR... I mean, well, I'm not really sure if I would call it the foundation... or maybe just the windows... or potentially the layout... the roof...

 

the flaw I see is that not enough grind is force upon people!

 

Of course, many 'instant gratification' gamers will bail out when by day 29 they haven't gotten to 'endgame'... that's the way they are... *shrug*

 

But if SWTOR had slowed down your progress to 1/4 XP (to take a random number), looking at all features that are in place before 'endgame', would you still say that SWTOR doesn't have a good foundation? Because these are the features that you would actually be playing with right now!

[JumperPenn]

Because players have become less tolerant & patient over the years, like you I started wow 7 years ago and compared to Swtor it was nothing. Give Swtor 7 years and it will be amazing in my opinion. But the sad fact is many players wont allow BW the opportunity, we are refering to the now crowd who wants everything perfect and they want it now.

 

Players have more options now, why should they stick with something that is inferior to other products out now? When they had little choice it made sense to stick with the few options you had but now there are numerous options for gamers. It is the developer's job to 'corner' a segment of the market and swtor will do this, perhaps not as a large as they hyped they would, as it isn't a terrible game. As it is it has a 'short life' for most people who play regularly, not just hardcore gamers with 6+hrs a day to play.

 

Players aren't the ones who need to give BW permission or the opportunity to make a game that is worth playing for 7 more years. That is on BW for releasing a mediocre product in a sea of other MMO's that are competing for players. BW chose to release a game with many flaws and is slow to update/fix it or are holding back content to buy themselves more time. Probably banking on the average time people subscribe and/or leave mmo's, I'm sure some of the 3-6month subs helped that too.

 

I do want a perfect product and I want it when I buy it not an insane 7 years later after I've been supporting it the entire time. Who wants to pay for some work in progress unless you stand to benefit from it when you're done paying to develop it? If I'm investing to make the next great doodad I'll pay for it for years so long as I get my money back and then some. But that isn't what an MMO is we pay for a good experience that entertains not to have them make something good 2 years from now or great 5 years from now. Everyone is free to do as they please and if you want to support them go ahead but don't believe your money is making the game better. Either they want to do that or they don't and if they don't they just want your money making it better only happens if your money is needed or can't be expected if they don't improve it.

 

I'd be fine with problems but not when they've existed for months, and fine they couldn't be fixed at launch but why not a month after, or how about 2 months after? That just shows they aren't interested in fixing those issues, can't, or are so busy with other things. Other things could be new content, meaning they accept their bugs and expect to lure in new people to replace the ones leaving which is a stupid cycle of replace the quitters while making the game worse with more buggy content. OR they are working on critical issues to the game, again this is 'bad' because it means they didn't know about them or couldn't deal with them before going live.

 

It all points to poor management decisions or maybe worse a lack of investment in the product to do it right. Neither are good for the game and are worse for the players investing their time and money into the game because you get nothing but access to the game for your money no guarantees of anything else.

[Shingara]

Ow everyone knows this is a new game, some like to say things like it doesnt have this that or the other, expectations are high amongst alot and others never had any intention of loving and enjoying this game and only set out to try and destroy or implant hate, fear or uncertainty amongst the playerbase for there soul enjoyment of feeling like they have this type of power. Meglomaniacs is a good name for them and they can be spotted very easily. Others understand that its new and have played in mmos when they 1st launch and understand not everything comes out right off the bat. we get the basic game then they add on and on and on until they have what they want as full retail with the minimum bugs as possible.

 

This is why you see alot of oldschool hardcore mmo'ers who when asked if there going for a new game they normally say, nah gonna wait till its been out a few months', thats because an mmo is never really at full retail until its been live a few months and the bugs that always show up under the 1st real mass stress test happens which is the games launch.

 

Some like to say that the game is old and has been in development for x years, wow was in development for 5 years but that came out with basically nothing. the reason for this is a simple fact. Certain bugs can only be found once in the mainstream and played by the masses on a mass of different machines and isps all linking into a server hub.

 

Major content we are seeing thats coming out in the next few months wasnt started to be created since the launch, its been in development from upto possibly a year ago. The amount of code that is in the game now is massive and they have to let it out bit by bit to see how it reacts under the stresses of full retail.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Shingara

[gregordunbar]

I suggest everyone go to the AoC, EQ 2 and LoTRo forums and read some of those posts that havent changed on bit over the years.

 

There is nothing wrong with the game.

Anyone saying anything bad about the game should quit and go back to WoW.

The company is working on the game so you have no reason to complain.

 

All are F2P, have 1/10th the playerbase it did at release and they sound just like many people here...blinders, they will stay on until the game is dead instead of actually HELPING get Bioware to listen to players and try to improve the game.

 

A complaint, doesnt mean the person HATES the game and wants it to FAIL. A request or demand for some kind of content is not a reason for you to complain they are asking for it.

 

Take the blinders off, work WITH people to improve the game...its YOUR game as well and YOU stand to benefit from it also.,,but you can also suffer for it by trying to stop people from getting Bioware to actually start LISTENING to what is being said. They havent throughout beta, ignored a TON for over a YEAR...if you allow it to continue, you are only hurting yourself.

 

This game needs a lot of content, the kind many games release with.

 

The time for excuses is over.

[Coiffio]

Well, obviously whether you are sticking around or not is your choice.

 

And yes, I have a problem with SWTOR... I mean, well, I'm not really sure if I would call it the foundation... or maybe just the windows... or potentially the layout... the roof...

 

the flaw I see is that not enough grind is force upon people!

 

Of course, many 'instant gratification' gamers will bail out when by day 29 they haven't gotten to 'endgame'... that's the way they are... *shrug*

 

But if SWTOR had slowed down your progress to 1/4 XP (to take a random number), looking at all features that are in place before 'endgame', would you still say that SWTOR doesn't have a good foundation? Because these are the features that you would actually be playing with right now!

 

I never much cared for the endgame in mmos myself, and I see this as a silly idea. The questing in this game (outside of the entertaining voice work that is) is dreadfully dull, slowing that down, to a quarter no less would just go so far beyond being a bad idea that one would have to invent a new word or term to describe it. However I will agree that things happen too fast in this game, only a couple months in and already we have several 50s who have roflstomped the end game content. I don't think questing should be slowed, but there should be gates in place to slow up end game a bit. For example, the necessity to gear up before tackling harder content. Quests or other barricades to cross in order to unlock instances and such, stretch things out a bit to give the game longevity.

[asbalana]

I've been looking over the forums to get a feel for my class, possible alts and the game in general and am amazed how quickly people have written this game off. Its a brand new game, barely 2 months into its life. People are already writing it off and looking for the next Fix.

 

I played WoW from day 1, it was not perferct in any way shape or form, nor were any of the other games to come out since, why did WoW get given the oppurtunity to change and progress and yet none since have been afforded the same opputrunity, regardless of the game we seem to want it to be perfect from day one or thats it on to the next one?

 

I find it funny that everyone goes on about how great WoW, or EQ or SWG, etc, etc, etc were and yet you all came here. The game has some fantastic unique features, the dialogue quests and storyline being one of the biggest. Is it perfect, no, but then is any game at Launch?

 

Why are people so quick to write games off these days rather than give the developers the time to take what was, in essence, a relativly smooth and successful launch and build upon it with increasing content to cover each player types preferences, weather that be additional PvP options, extended storylines, more proffesion linked options or indeed additional FP's etc?

 

I agree with many things that you have said but not in the conclusion implied by your question.

 

The launch was pretty good. The game itself has many wonderful things about it that make it well worth playing (for a while).

 

But it was launched broken, limited, and has more bugs in key areas than should have existed. So some people will indeed write it off. Some will do this quickly because of frustration over a product that they anticipated for a long time and for which they bought a great deal of the hype and yet did not deliver. Some are frustrated because they are use to smooth quality game play with a good feel (whether they liked the game itself) and swtor has not provided that. Some are frustrated by what they percieve as a lack of communication from the devs. And some have watched BW fumble around with some issues and have concluded that the company has problems.

 

We all react differently and I do understand those who have quickly written the game off or decided that it is not for them. I find it very flawed but much fun at this point and am enjoying my time in the swtor universe. I have the sad feeling that swtor is a good game that has a limited play life for me and it could have been great and a game that I could have played for years.

[Goreson]

If you're a company like EA, you're basically looking for an MMO in your portfolio that will provide a substantial steady revenue stream to complement the "lumpy" revenue that they get from box sales (which is most of their revenue). That's why they're so interested in having a successful MMO -- in part to compete with their rival Activision, but also in part to get a piece of the action in terms of having regular revenues from a game -- that is kind of the El Dorado of game publishing, really. So a company like EA is not going to "settle for" a hundred thousand subscribers in a game that took 200 million to make - it doesn't pencil quickly enough to make that a good use of the company's working capital. It's looking for a big hit, which means swinging for the seats, which means Warhammer and TOR.

 

well... I invite you to actually look at what is running under BioWare's umbrella (and thereby under EA's):

 

There is a 'little' game called Dark Age of Camelot.

 

Since EA purchase Mythic in the summer of 2006 we have seen a strong start with WAR (and the following crash of it) and a steady fall in subscribers to DAoC.

 

Since EA merged Mythic into the BioWare group in the summer of 2009, WAR has pretty much turned into a F2P game (with WoH actually being f2p) and DAoC's subscription number (supposedly) being as low as 5,000 (July 2011).

 

Now, why have neither BioWare nor EA closed down Mythic? They are not working on new projects (as far as I'm aware), very little money (relatively speaking) is actually generated by WAR and DAoC thru subscriptions...

 

is it because the Warhammer IP thru WoH just went beta and EA is hoping for big money thru WoH's item store?

 

Wouldn't really give them a reason to keep DAoC alive (and actually rather well taken care of, thank you!)...

 

So, is it maybe because DAoC is a prestige game?

 

But 'prestige' doesn't really reflect into EA's corporate books... does it?

 

They could probably have gone f2p with it by now, which rather likely would draw quite a crowd (I'd imagine close to what L2 saw when they went f2p, potentially even more), but they didn't... is it because the numbers have (supposedly) gone up again? Somehow I doubt that... (not the rise in numbers but that the numbers make DAoC a strong competitor in the p2p market)

 

so, sometimes numbers aren't all that matters...

[Goreson]

This is going places, i can tell...

 

I can read it just fine, my point was, I'm not your secretary, if you want them go check, i'm sure with dilligence you'll come up with a few all on your own, or, you could just simply make your point..

 

personally i play EvE, started Uncharted Waters Online, and dabble in Xsyon.

 

All of which step outside the box of cookie cutter MMO #6..

 

So again, whats your point?

 

Wow, so you were able to name 3 (three!) games out of 500+ games (over at MMORPG.com) that according to you 'step outside the box some'?

 

I'm impressed... not!

 

And before you tell me to look for myself and find games over at MMORPG.com that 'step outside the box some', guess what: I don't have to... I can just stay here in this very same forum and name one: SWTOR... because there are no Elves and Orcs in it!

 

So, next time, better be prepared to back up your claim!