The Pro-Toggle Thread for same gender content.

[Althena]

I almost completely agree. I would almost be completely satisfied with a simple "turn off all flirts" toggle, and in this case almost would be good enough for me. The funny thing is the idea of a pre-toggle preference menu is an idea I came up with on behalf of the people who want this content in their game. One would think it would be better, if you read the OP, for people to get exactly the content they want, then even LGBT wouldn't have to deal with straight-prompts. The fact that people are more concerned that everyone should have to deal with all prompts instead of everyone getting to choose what side-story flirt prompts make them happiest is troublesome because it shows that people are more concerned about what is going on in someone else's game, than what they get to enjoy in theirs.

 

Speaking for myself and as someone who fits into the category of LGBT, seeing straight prompts doesn't phase me at all. The replies I get in the conversations are almost always amusing/comical. It isn't as if some hardcore scene breaks out in front of me!

 

My only thought/concern about having a listing of different toggles is that it can spark the argument of, "There is nothing wrong with being gay, so why do you have to make it a toggle as if it's a bad thing," since it would be completely obvious as to why it's there (even though it would be harmless). Almost like an invitation for more trouble.

The people who are complaining about having to see same-sex content would still complain because they would also see the toggle label if they went searching for it and it could somehow horrifically taint and scar their naive children's minds, or their own, I guess. (I think that is what their issue with this is?)

 

Either way, there will always be someone unhappy!

 

I just hope it gets added, even with a toggle, as it is discriminatory that it is not available.. that and my sorcerer would look cute with Ashara Zavros. Hah

[Comfterbilly]

y only thought/concern about having a listing of different toggles is that it can spark the argument of, "There is nothing wrong with being gay, so why do you have to make it a toggle as if it's a bad thing," since it would be completely obvious as to why it's there (even though it would be harmless). Almost like an invitation for more trouble.

The people who are complaining about having to see same-sex content would still complain because they would also see the toggle label if they went searching for it and it could somehow horrifically taint and scar their naive children's minds, or their own, I guess. (I think that is what their issue with this is?)

 

For me, having a toggle isn't about morality at all, and especially not about religious issues, its about the game.

 

I am reading through the forum and the outrage that anti-toggle players keep assuming is out there, just isn't there. I complain strictly from a game immersion standpoint, this subject being fresh in the news, that I would rather not have to read it like a headline every time I'm talking to NPC's, companions or otherwise. I may not have a problem with what other people want in their games, but that doesn't mean I can enjoy the game with this constant reminder of social politics.

 

Having a toggle doesn't mean its a bad thing it just means r/l social issues are distracting and having them thrust on us with no recourse is aggravating.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Arzhanin
Inappropriate content

[Comfterbilly]

I'd just really like to point out again that your entire argument is that homophobes shouldn't have to be confronted with the option to flirt with same sex NPCs.

 

You're wrong from the get go. What you need to recognize is that there are valid reasons for wanting a toggle for the flirts that have nothing to do with homophobia, morality, or any other ethical issue.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[Demaio-J]

You're wrong from the get go. What you need to recognize is that there are valid reasons for wanting a toggle for the flirts that have nothing to do with homophobia.

 

See, that's the thing. You've stated why you don't want to see it, because you don't want to be confronted with politics. Here's the problem though, this game is chock full of politics, the very core of the game is the conflict between the light and dark side of the force, or if we paraphrase, socialism and libertarianism. The Republic vs the Empire, Democracy vs Fascism. The entire game is based on opposing political views and the quests reference this constantly. Kotor 2's plot literally revolved around the pointlessness of extremism in any political leaning.

 

The fact is, your argument makes no sense. You have no issue with any other political statements this game and this company have made so we're left wondering why this one in particular is such a problem for you.

[Comfterbilly]

See, that's the thing. You've stated why you don't want to see it, because you don't want to be confronted with politics. Here's the problem though, this game is chock full of politics, the very core of the game is the conflict between the light and dark side of the force, or if we paraphrase, socialism and libertarianism. The Republic vs the Empire, Democracy vs Fascism. The entire game is based on opposing political views and the quests reference this constantly. Kotor 2's plot literally revolved around the pointlessness of extremism in any political leaning.

 

The fact is, your argument makes no sense. You have no issue with any other political statements this game and this company have made so we're left wondering why this one in particular is such a problem for you.

 

You're not talking about game politics as the story context for the game you are talking about r/l social politics and other players inability to toggle off that content, because it is a game breaker.

 

How about an NPC quest about two same gender NPC's, like a cool Romeo and Juliet story with dudes or something? Fine with me, I will play that quest. Environmentalists make me sick but as a subplot of the story context I can hold my nose and play it. That's a lot different than having the game essentially, via flirts and prompts, ask my character if he's gay every time I talk to my ship's crew, for the duration of my participation in this game, which in that case would be short - without a toggle that is.

 

I don't want to deal with r/l social politics because some people, with a very weak grasp of the word, are inclined to call it "fair". I play this game to get away from the P.C. police; if they take over the game I'm not going to play it.

[Demaio-J]

That's a lot different than having the game essentially, via flirts and prompts, ask my character if he's gay every time I talk to my ship's crew, for the duration of my participation in this game, which in that case would be short - without a toggle that is.

 

I'm curious about exactly how you feel this would play out in game. Flirt options tend to be few and far between, especially with the crew, and if you don't use them in a few select conversations they disappear all together. There's no reason to think it would be any different.

[JTShadow]

If you choose a Sith Warrior, do they send you to Dantooine to complete your Jedi training? No? Because you're not a Jedi. As a Sith warrior, I don't want to go to Dantooine to complete my Jedi training, because I'm not a Jedi, get it? I don't even want prompts asking me if I want to go to Dantooine to complete my Jedi training, and this part is not a metaphor: because I despise the Republic.

 

The metaphor doesn't even hold its own weight. Why as a Sith would you have any reason to do any Jedi training? Let alone a chance to complete it. I do see some logic in your arguement though.

 

The only point I can concede that this thread has made me realize is this. If this is truly so important to people, the only option that would make ANY sense is not a toggle in preferences, or a option on installation. The only logical answer would be Character Creation.

 

During character creation, I would concede that it could make sense to choose on a character by character basis if they have any sexual preference. Since the flirt options are options that would come up as options of what you would say, you could set your limitations ahead of time.

 

Although if this were to be the case, I would also demand to see other such options treated the same way. At character creation I would demand that you also set in stone whether you were going lightside or darkside. Whether you would make silly comments or always be serious. I would like all choices to be removed just as you would have the first choice removed, therefore when I play the game I wont see options I don't agree with either.

 

In the end is that all best for the game? Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with politics, yet thats all anyone wants to relate it too. Same gender interactions has been around longer than our current political situation, but then again so has intolerance, hate and prejudice.

[Pink_Saber]

You're wrong from the get go. What you need to recognize is that there are valid reasons for wanting a toggle for the flirts that have nothing to do with homophobia, morality, or any other ethical issue.

 

I have yet to hear one.

 

Why else would you want to make any sign of the existence of non-straight people disappear? It's not like the people calling for same-gender romances are asking to be able to toggle off heterosexual flirt options.

 

The only reason for a toggle like this would be because someone thinks there is something so wrong with same-gender flirt options that they need to disappear. Why else would someone want that unless they are irrationally afraid of them, or object to those people's choices on moral grounds?

 

There's just no other believable reason for a toggle that I can think of. Saying it's about politics is a joke. Flirting is not politics, and never has been. If you honestly think the only reason anyone would be inclusive in their romance options is for political reasons, that's your issue, not Bioware's, and there's no reason they should have to code in discriminatory, redundant systems just to save you from your own faulty logic.

 

I mean, there's a toggle already on the opposite-gender romance options: Don't use them. It works very well, and happens to be the same system used in the real world. If that's not good enough, then I don't know what is. A toggle would be completely redundant, and I don't get how anyone can ask for them and say with a straight face that it's not about homophobia or morality. Of course it is.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[HelinCarnate]

I have yet to hear one.

 

Why else would you want to make any sign of the existence of non-straight people disappear? It's not like the people calling for same-gender romances are asking to be able to toggle off heterosexual flirt options.

 

The only reason for a toggle like this would be because someone thinks there is something so wrong with same-gender flirt options that they need to disappear. Why else would someone want that unless they are irrationally afraid of them, or object to those people's choices on moral grounds?

 

There's just no other believable reason for a toggle that I can think of. Saying it's about politics is a joke. Flirting is not politics, and never has been. If you honestly think the only reason anyone would be inclusive in their romance options is for political reasons, that's your issue, not Bioware's, and there's no reason they should have to code in discriminatory, redundant systems just to save you from your own faulty logic.

 

I mean, there's a toggle already on the opposite-gender romance options: Don't use them. It works very well, and happens to be the same system used in the real world. If that's not good enough, then I don't know what is. A toggle would be completely redundant, and I don't get how anyone can ask for them and say with a straight face that it's not about homophobia or morality. Of course it is.

 

There are homosexuals that find even the idea of flirting with the opposite sex repulsive.

 

There are hederosexual that find even the idea of flirting with the same sex repulsive.

 

Is it better to have something in the game that both sets of people find repulsive or that both sets of people enjoy?

 

Now me personally I don't care either way, it is quite difficult to offend me. Dev time can be used for better things than trying to make this crap work to please a few people. But if BW finds that it is cost effective to do so, life goes on.

Edited February 12, 2012 by HelinCarnate

[Sapphix]

I would like to keep playing the game as it is now. I do not want my choices to be limited in any way with options I have no intention in choosing. I don't see how a toggle would hurt anyone and I think it would be best for everyone involved.

 

I support the toggle, this way we all get to choose what content we would like to see.

[MJHoyle]

I have watched Star Was IV, V and VI from as young as I remember back in the early 80s, I watched the remake, the HD remake, and the new ones I, II, and III. In all of those there was never any same-sex relationship. Why should this game be an exception? They're just PIXELS. Why do we have to enforce our own ethics onto a virtual reality where it never existed in the films or in the expanded universe? Keep your same-sex ethics where they belong in the real world.

 

Oh, and for the record I'm bi, but I still think that same-sex relationships should be kept out of the Star Wars universe.

Edited February 12, 2012 by MJHoyle

[Artania]

I personally think it sounds like a great idea. This way everyone gets what they want, and can choose to change at any time. Please note that I probably would not use this for myself, unless I experimented with it a little to see if they did it well. So it wouldn't affect me at all if it weren't implemented, and barely affect me if it were. Remember..... choices are a good thing!

[Sabarok]

I have watched Star Was IV, V and VI from as young as I remember back in the early 80s, I watched the remake, the HD remake, and the new ones I, II, and III. In all of those there was never any same-sex relationship. Why should this game be an exception? They're just PIXELS. Why do we have to enforce our own ethics onto a virtual reality where it never existed in the films or in the expanded universe? Keep your same-sex ethics where they belong in the real world.

 

Oh, and for the record I'm bi, but I still think that same-sex relationships should be kept out of the Star Wars universe.

 

SWTOR is full of stuff that was never in the movies, and since it takes place thousands of years earlier, there's almost nothing in the movies that's in SWTOR. There's no characters from the movies, none of the ships, no death star. The only thing we have from the movies are the locations, species, technology, and the force. Even the Jedi & Sith orders aren't the exact same ones from the movies since they will undergo changes in the timeline between SWTOR and the movies.

 

The original trilogy never went beyond flirting & 2 kisses, and one of those was between siblings who hadn't yet found out. I also don't recall seeing any romantic interest at all from a non-human in any of the movies, so does that mean SWTOR should only have romance options available to humans?

 

If you're looking for things that are based solely on the original trilogy and doesn't add anything new, this isn't SWG. Just because it hasn't been in any movies or books yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the universe. Bioware has brought many new things to Star Wars with KOTOR & SWTOR that weren't in the movies.

 

Keeping same-gender stuff out is what would qualify as "enforce our own ethics onto a virtual reality". So, yes, "Keep your same-sex ethics where they belong in the real world." by leaving your opposition to the content at the door. There is no ethical issue at all in making something available to all characters. When a male character flirts with a female character, the dialog is already written and voiced. Where is the ethical issue in taking that same dialog and having it voiced by a female actress so that the dialog is exactly the same to all characters regardless of gender. It's not an ethical issue, it's a technical one. The ones bringing ethics into it are the ones fighting to keep it out.

 

We already have murder, genocide, & torture; it's a little late to bring up ethics.

[Comfterbilly]

Keeping same-gender stuff out is what would qualify as "enforce our own ethics onto a virtual reality". So, yes, "Keep your same-sex ethics where they belong in the real world." by leaving your opposition to the content at the door. There is no ethical issue at all in making something available to all characters. When a male character flirts with a female character, the dialog is already written and voiced. Where is the ethical issue in taking that same dialog and having it voiced by a female actress so that the dialog is exactly the same to all characters regardless of gender. It's not an ethical issue, it's a technical one. The ones bringing ethics into it are the ones fighting to keep it out.

 

We already have murder, genocide, & torture; it's a little late to bring up ethics.

 

She says she's bi and you go out of your way to treat her like a homophobe - Fabulous! She goes out on a limb to offer an olive branch, and you cut down the tree, kick her in the face and still expect her to want to pay to play this game with you. Are all anti-toggle players so honorable?

 

Pro-toggle players aren't trying to omit content from your game. Anti-toggle players are trying to omit choices from ours. All toggle players want is to be left alone.

[NoxiousAlby]

/signed

 

Every player should have the content that enhances their gaming experience.

[MJHoyle]

Well I personally do not see why we need to have same-sex relationships in a game. It's too much "in your face" even for myself. It's just a game with pixels and a means to escape the real world and all its rules by playing on a make-believe world. Trying to force game characters to have a same-sex relationship is like trying to force your pet mongrel to have a sexual relationship with another mongrel because you happen to be lesbian. Edited February 12, 2012 by MJHoyle

[tomshe]

I have watched Star Was IV, V and VI from as young as I remember back in the early 80s, I watched the remake, the HD remake, and the new ones I, II, and III. In all of those there was never any same-sex relationship. Why should this game be an exception? They're just PIXELS. Why do we have to enforce our own ethics onto a virtual reality where it never existed in the films or in the expanded universe? Keep your same-sex ethics where they belong in the real world.

 

Oh, and for the record I'm bi, but I still think that same-sex relationships should be kept out of the Star Wars universe.

 

Just so you know, the mandalorians had same sex relationships and marriages. So homosexuality is already very much in the star wars universe.

[Racheakt]

Just so you know, the mandalorians had same sex relationships and marriages. So homosexuality is already very much in the star wars universe.

 

In the movies?

 

99% of people get what the universe is form the 6 movies and the clone wars cartoon.

[Sabarok]

She says she's bi and you go out of your way to treat her like a homophobe - Fabulous! She goes out on a limb to offer an olive branch, and you cut down the tree, kick her in the face and still expect her to want to pay to play this game with you. Are all anti-toggle players so honorable?

 

Pro-toggle players aren't trying to omit content from your game. Anti-toggle players are trying to omit choices from ours. All toggle players want is to be left alone.

 

Read the post I quoted again. It wasn't an "olive branch" post. It wasn't a pro-toggle post. It was a "keep the content out of the game" post. I'm not going to treat the posts that people write any different just because of their personal preference for who they choose in a partner. If treating people as equals is kicking them in the face, there must be many broken noses around me.

 

Anti-toggle players are not trying to remove choices. You still have the choice. The disagreement is on where & how the choice should be presented.

 

The anti feel that the choice should remain with the [flirt]. The pro feel that the choice should be in the UI. The anti feel that their idea promotes fairness and balance. The pro feel that their idea promotes fairness and balance. The anti feel that putting the option in the UI is a political statement. The pro feel that having the content present in the game is a political statement. The anti don't want to see the toggle because it offends their view that both sides are equal. The pro don't want to see the flirt because it offends their view that the other side is different. The anti feel that the presence of same-gender flirts should be implicit. The pro feel that the presence of same-gender flirts should be explicit.

[tomshe]

In the movies?

 

99% of people get what the universe is form the 6 movies and the clone wars cartoon.

 

Not the movies no, I think it's noted in some of the lore books.

[Racheakt]

Read the post I quoted again. It wasn't an "olive branch" post. It wasn't a pro-toggle post. It was a "keep the content out of the game" post. I'm not going to treat the posts that people write any different just because of their personal preference for who they choose in a partner. If treating people as equals is kicking them in the face, there must be many broken noses around me.

 

Anti-toggle players are not trying to remove choices. You still have the choice. The disagreement is on where & how the choice should be presented.

 

The anti feel that the choice should remain with the [flirt]. The pro feel that the choice should be in the UI. The anti feel that their idea promotes fairness and balance. The pro feel that their idea promotes fairness and balance. The anti feel that putting the option in the UI is a political statement. The pro feel that having the content present in the game is a political statement. The anti don't want to see the toggle because it offends their view that both sides are equal. The pro don't want to see the flirt because it offends their view that the other side is different. The anti feel that the presence of same-gender flirts should be implicit. The pro feel that the presence of same-gender flirts should be explicit.

 

Is a game the best place to search for community validation and acceptance?

 

I think all flirting sould be explicit by the way. I made the argument before the forum wipe for either selecting the orentation of the toon on the select screen or an option to toggle off the non-prefered orentation.

 

I accept the existiance of same-gender relationships as the norm for some (BW I am treding close here) ther are just as many who do not see it that way. I couple that with this is a SW theme-park game not a Sims style sandbox, I see no issues with a toggle either way, [flit] options are not public they are only when doing private dialoge, why does it bother anyone that someone someplace does not want to see it as long as you get the content that you want?

 

I would not be offended if someone wanted to filter out hetro flirt options, people are diffrent.

[Sabarok]

Is a game the best place to search for community validation and acceptance?

 

I think all flirting sould be explicit by the way. I made the argument before the forum wipe for either selecting the orentation of the toon on the select screen or an option to toggle off the non-prefered orentation.

 

I accept the existiance of same-gender relationships as the norm for some (BW I am treding close here) ther are just as many who do not see it that way. I couple that with this is a SW theme-park game not a Sims style sandbox, I see no issues with a toggle either way, [flit] options are not public they are only when doing private dialoge, why does it bother anyone that someone someplace does not want to see it as long as you get the content that you want?

 

I would not be offended if someone wanted to filter out hetro flirt options, people are diffrent.

 

It's good that you bring up the Sims. In The Sims, same-gender is implicit. There's no toggle to turn it off, you simply don't choose to interact with same-gender sims in that way, but the choices are still there. Both also have EA owning the company that developed the game.

[Demaio-J]

Is a game the best place to search for community validation and acceptance?

Yes. There is a reasonable expectation of equality, especially amongst your peers.

 

I would not be offended if someone wanted to filter out hetro flirt options, people are diffrent.

 

This isn't a complete thought. Why would anyone want to? The fact is, that doesn't come with nearly the level of baggage as trying to remove all references to homosexuality.

[Racheakt]

It's good that you bring up the Sims. In The Sims, same-gender is implicit. There's no toggle to turn it off, you simply don't choose to interact with same-gender sims in that way, but the choices are still there. Both also have EA owning the company that developed the game.

 

But SIMS is a game about personal relationships, the perfect place for the representation you seek.

 

This is Star Wars -- All about the Pew Pew, Zoom Zoom, Swish Swish.

 

I think that this is the wrong place/game for this as it is an action based game. It is an opinion, the OP is not arguing for the content to be removed/not developed just to make it so that players can toggle it (either way). given that flirt options are not seen by anyone but the player, how does it bother anyone if a player somewhere does not want the flirt option to come up as long as you get it if you want it?

[Sabarok]

But SIMS is a game about personal relationships, the perfect place for the representation you seek.

 

This is Star Wars -- All about the Pew Pew, Zoom Zoom, Swish Swish.

 

I think that this is the wrong place/game for this as it is an action based game. It is an opinion, the OP is not arguing for the content to be removed/not developed just to make it so that players can toggle it (either way). given that flirt options are not seen by anyone but the player, how does it bother anyone if a player somewhere does not want the flirt option to come up as long as you get it if you want it?

 

Star Wars is also about the relationships, and Bioware is especially known for it. SWTOR is a story based MMO. When talking in companions (which is where we are likely to only see same-gender content), that interaction is primarily about personal relationships.