Why the Vigilance Spec is awesome and how to make it work for you!

[Marqhill]

So at the beginning the Vigilance skill tree for the Guardian was kind of the redheaded step child of PvP DPS specs and Focus tree was pretty much hailed as the end all be all of Guardian DPS skill trees and if you do anything different then you're an idiot. As you can tell by the title of the thread I wholeheartedly disagree. I've been using Vigilance for the past 2 weeks now and I don't see myself switching to something else any time in the near future. Don't get me wrong, Focus is AWESOME! However, the relatively fast and unrelenting pace of the Vigilance skill tree has really got me hooked.

 

I'm only bringing this up because I would like to create something of a "How to" for the Vigilance spec'ed guardian in PvP and list abilities and gear options that have worked for me as well as getting any advice from you guys on the forum about things that could improve. Hear goes!

 

Skill Tree Choices:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500cMZIMRRMuddMRZhM.1

 

This is my current spec. It's a pretty standard vigilance spec. So I'll be quick about this and touch on the more important abilities.

 

Improved Sundering/Victory Rush - This is an incredibly important ability because it reduces your targets armor, builds 3 focus AND you need to use it in the first place to be able to us Plasma Brand at all. Use this whenever it's off cool down.

 

Momentum - It makes your first blade storm after you use force leap free. Considering that it should be an automatic critical hit because of Force Rush it just makes that much more sense to take. An automatic critical hit that causes elemental damage and costs no focus is something that you always want.

 

Stagger - Immobilizing your opponent for 1 extra second seems like it's not a big deal, but it is. It gives you all the time you need to hit them with a whole extra ability. This is something a melee DPS will want every time.

 

Unremitting - Do you hate that every time you force leap at someone they knock you back? I sure as hell did... past tense. Not with Unremitting. You get 4 seconds of immunity to slows and knock backs. I get amused every time I force leap a sith sorc and they immediately do their knock back and then proceed to **** their pants because I'm still there!

 

Overhead Slash/ Plasma Brand - These are your two main DPS abilities that you get specifically from this tree. Overhead Slash is a reasonably heavy hitting damage ability that also causes elemental damage which ignores armor. Plasma Brand on the other hand does less damage up front but also does more damage overtime. Which again, is all elemental damage so they don't get any armor. They're both on a 9 second cool down as well so the burn effect on plasma brand won't even have ended before you can do it again.

 

Force Rush - Probably the most important ability in this tree. It increases the critical hit chance of Blade Storm and Dispatch by 60%. Dispatch being the most important one. When I use Dispatch I currently do anywhere from 3000 - 4000 damage. Keeping in mind you can only use this on a target below 20% health most people are guaranteed dead the first hit with dispatch always no matter what your maximum hitpoints were.

 

I'm going to end for now by saying that I DON'T have any battle master gear and I actually still have some Centurion gear and I usually put out around 250,000 damage a warzone with a kill/killing blow ratio of about 33% - 50%. I also just recently had a new damage record of 385,000 damage in a warzone which put most ranged classes that day to shame.

 

When I come back I want to talk more about which stats to prioritize. Back soon. Let me know your thoughts.

[Ethias]

I personally prefer slight modifications to pickup Gather Strength and Solidified Force, but nothing too significant outside of that (I drop the Bladestorm DoT and don't have Insight maxed I think it is.)

[TheWandererBR]

is the accuracy talent really a waste?

[Obisan]

I am currently lvl 45 and have just recently respecced into Focus. I feel that I'm contributing more to my team (previously purely defensive) but I hate the finicky tendencies of Force Sweep. Sometimes it doesn't go off, or for whatever reason it will hit someone for 1900 instead of the 3.5k I'm used too. I'd rather be able to take down a focused target faster than just do inflated aoe damage.

 

My other thought, which my be flawed, is to go all tanking/pve gear but be specced into one of these dps trees. We can still guard/taunt while doing more damage to help our team bring down targets. WOuld Vigilance be better than the AOE damage?

[Zarthorn]

is the accuracy talent really a waste?

 

Since most of your attacks from Vigil do weapon damage, no it isn't a waste.

 

The biggest problem with Vigil is Shien stance having given it some time I ended up going back to Vigil/Def because the damage increase is poor compared to the trade off loss of survivability.

 

The stance and the single saber mastery improvement equate to all of 50-100 damage extra, definately not worth it, Soresu and Shi-Cho are both miles ahead of it.

[DoctorWhorrible]

Since most of your attacks from Vigil do weapon damage, no it isn't a waste.

 

The biggest problem with Vigil is Shien stance having given it some time I ended up going back to Vigil/Def because the damage increase is poor compared to the trade off loss of survivability.

 

The stance and the single saber mastery improvement equate to all of 50-100 damage extra, definately not worth it, Soresu and Shi-Cho are both miles ahead of it.

 

Perhaps at low levels this is true, but at 50 Vigilance has a good few suriviability talents. Certainly more than the other dps spec and perhaps more that actually matter in pvp unlike the defense spec. You will actually get more damage reduction from being full Vigilance than going Shi-Cho in Focus. Take a look at Unremitting, Protector, and Commanding Awe before writing off Vigilance's survivability.

 

I am currently lvl 45 and have just recently respecced into Focus. I feel that I'm contributing more to my team (previously purely defensive) but I hate the finicky tendencies of Force Sweep. Sometimes it doesn't go off, or for whatever reason it will hit someone for 1900 instead of the 3.5k I'm used too. I'd rather be able to take down a focused target faster than just do inflated aoe damage.

 

My other thought, which my be flawed, is to go all tanking/pve gear but be specced into one of these dps trees. We can still guard/taunt while doing more damage to help our team bring down targets. WOuld Vigilance be better than the AOE damage?

 

Focus is good to use until you get decent gear in PvP. Yes your numbers are inflated by often times meaningless and easily healed splash damage (just look at all the post where people think doing 400-500k damage in Voidstar actually means anything) and yes you will be fairly squishy. However, the cheese of force sweep is less hindered by poor gear than what Vigilance offers. Once you get some decent gear I would not look back at focus though. It's a clunky spec that's biggest hitting moved is easily avoidable and takes a lot of setup to land (compared to pretty much every other spec in the game).

 

As a decently geared Vigilance Guardian I can pull the same numbers I did as Focus (except only generally 300k+ in voidstar instead of 400-500 in focus) except without the padding that splash damage affords.

 

Honestly, I think once you PvP with Unremitting it's hard to even want to PvP without it. Yes, Focus Sweep crits are fun to watch, but on similarly geared or better geared players they are not impressive and require too much setup. In Vigilance you will be constantly attacking and putting pressure on someone and gain surivivability and be freed from the constraints of a rigid setup for force sweep.

Edited February 12, 2012 by DoctorWhorrible

[Zarthorn]

Perhaps at low levels this is true, but at 50 Vigilance has a good few suriviability talents. Certainly more than the other dps spec and perhaps more that actually matter in pvp unlike the defense spec. You will actually get more damage reduction from being full Vigilance than going Shi-Cho in Focus. Take a look at Unremitting, Protector, and Commanding Awe before writing off Vigilance's survivability.

.

 

I'll write it off because I've tried it (I also have the full Vindicator Champ set), Shien stance is terrible compared to Soresu and not worth taking over warding call (which the survivability heavily outweighs the poor damage increase from going Shien)

 

This is why the Vigil/Def Hybrid exists, because Full defence is poor and full Vigil is poor, but with cherry picking and combined they make for an excellent tank build with not too shabby dps to boot.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Zarthorn

[VertisReaper]

those who play vigilance/shien who say the survivability is poor, are not playing correctly. i never engage first, and I'm always on the outskirts of a fight killing the light armor and the healers or peeling for my own. the second I come under focus, I'm guardian leaping out then force leaping back in once their attention is turned. I never, ever die even though I'm solo queue most of the time.

 

players on my server want to kill me so bad that I end up leading them on a wild goose chase as I leap all over the map like a monkey, baiting them off objectives and wasting their time.

 

If you ever played as a Warrior at a gladiator level in WoW you know that Vigilance guardians are pretty much the same class but on steroids. I fear the day that other vigilance guardians learn to play. I never see other guards/juggs using the full set of tools they have access to most just think I'm going to just stand there and give them a fair 1v1 fight, then after the game they come whispering me asking what spec I am.

 

I'm clipping my master strike instantly.

I'm blade warding your 4x singularity sweeps.

I'm using my teammates as extensions of myself.

I'm using stasis/push on you after I've loaded up my DoTs.

I'm dragging you behind LoS from the rest of your team.

I'm using awe as an interrupt

 

45 sec cd intimidating shout, rofl.

20 sec intervene with a defense steroid+heal rofl

2 stuns one that refreshes your charge (z axis also) CD rofl

defense steroid that doesn't sacrifice offensive ability and completely absorbs the first 2 secs of damage.

cc immunity

ranged execute rofl

 

Ever since Bioware fixed the responsiveness of this class, I feel borderline overpowered.

Edited February 12, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Zarthorn]

those who play vigilance/shien who say the survivability is poor, are not playing correctly. i never engage first, and I'm always on the outskirts of a fight killing the light armor and the healers or peeling for my own. the second I come under focus, I'm guardian leaping out then force leaping back in once their attention is turned. I never, ever die even though I'm solo queue most of the time.

 

players on my server want to kill me so bad that I end up leading them on a wild goose chase as I leap all over the map like a monkey, baiting them off objectives and wasting their time.

 

If you ever played as a Warrior at a gladiator level in WoW you know that Vigilance guardians are pretty much the same class but on steroids. I fear the day that other vigilance guardians learn to play.

 

45 sec cd intimidating shout, rofl.

20 sec intervene with a defense steroid+heal rofl

2 stuns one that refreshes your charge (z axis also) CD rofl

defense steroid that doesn't sacrifice offensive ability and completely absorbs the first 2 secs of damage.

cc immunity

ranged execute rofl

 

Ever since Bioware fixed the responsiveness of this class, I feel borderline overpowered.

 

Something tells me you are mistaking level/gear gap for overpoweredness.

 

Seriously do yourself a favor and try a similar build with Soresu you'll notice a huge difference to your survivability and very little difference to your damage....this is because:

 

-Shien only increases your force and elemental damage by 6% (run the math thats pretty damn low)

 

-Single Saber mastery only works on weapon damage... blade storm, plasma brand, force sweep, force push, force stasis and burning effects do NOT I repeat do NOT get increased in any way, shape or form from Single Saber mastery!.

 

Judging by your posts you sound like you haven't played the class very much at level 50, if at all....trust me you will die a LOT if you try to PvP in Shien form because you are a heck of a lot more squishy than Shi Cho or Soresu stance Guardians, this is why many make mention of how terrible Shien is and that it needs a buff to bring it up to par with other stances.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Zarthorn

[VertisReaper]

Something tells me you are mistaking level/gear gap for overpoweredness.

 

Seriously do yourself a favor and try a similar build with Soresu you'll notice a huge difference to your survivability and very little difference to your damage....this is because:

 

-Shien only increases your force and elemental damage by 6% (run the math thats pretty damn low)

 

-Single Saber mastery only works on weapon damage... blade storm, plasma brand, force sweep, force push, force stasis and burning effects do NOT I repeat do NOT get increased in any way, shape or form from Single Saber mastery!.

 

Judging by your posts you sound like you haven't played the class very much at level 50, if at all....trust me you will die a LOT if you try to PvP in Shien form because you are a heck of a lot more squishy than Shi Cho or Soresu stance Guardians, this is why many make mention of how terrible Shien is and that it needs a buff to bring it up to par with other stances.

 

Im in full rakkata/champ/bm gear which everyone has. I really have nothing to prove to you, if you want to say shien sucks, I'm not gonna change ur mind rofl. I never die, but I guess thats what separates good guards from the bad.

Edited February 12, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Zarthorn]

Im in full rakkata/champ/bm gear which everyone has. I really have nothing to prove to you, if you want to say shien sucks, I'm not gonna change ur mind rofl. I never die, but I guess thats what separates good guards from the bad.

 

And there we have our answer ladies and gentlemen, fully geared Guardian claiming class is fine when beating on cents/fresh 50's!

 

You keep telling yourself it's a good build, the rest of us that take the time to fully explore things will keep our own opinions on how poor Shien stance is and how useless single saber mastery is as a talent.

 

I'll keep plugging away, earning high amounts of medals and valor because I haven't forfeited Guard for some poor damage tradeoff thus making me generally more useful to my team in a...team game, you keep dreaming of getting the 5k destroyer medal and the 300k damage medal which will constantly slip from your grasp the minute you realise the whole enemy team has more than 6% expertise.

 

Enjoy adding 50 damage onto your elemental Dots because that is all the Shien bonus is worth.

 

In one of the closer matches against a BM geared empire team the only reason they won is because there assassin used a stealth exploit to steal a turret (remained in stealth while capping and the blue cap beam didn't appear)

 

http://imageshack.us/f/443/screenshot2012021203071.jpg/

 

The 200k+ damage was a Sentinel, note that neither Guardian broke 150k damage and the other Guardian was dps specced in shien stance with me being Vigil/Def Hybrid tank spec....wow 20k more damage and he had 2 less deaths so more up time.

 

This is what actually happens when gear starts to even out, you start to see what makes a difference and what doesn't and Shien makes very little difference for the loss of Guard and the mitigation properties of Soresu.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Zarthorn

[VertisReaper]

I press challenging shout/taunt a marauder in a teamfight and i get 2-3 medals instantly, not hard. hahaha. I like how you make it seem like 5k is difficult for any spec of guardian, cute.

[Zarthorn]

I press challenging shout/taunt a marauder in a teamfight and i get 2-3 medals instantly, not hard. hahaha. I like how you make it seem like 5k is difficult for any spec of guardian, cute.

 

Focus bombers won't be getting 5k after the surge nerf, thus your point is moot, now read above look at the screen and note the fact you dodged the fact I mentioned you are geared vs fresh 50's which is the only difference.

[VertisReaper]

my bad for having gear and playing my character at the level it was designed for. whoopsie!

[bamsmacked]

Since most of your attacks from Vigil do weapon damage, no it isn't a waste.

 

The biggest problem with Vigil is Shien stance having given it some time I ended up going back to Vigil/Def because the damage increase is poor compared to the trade off loss of survivability.

 

The stance and the single saber mastery improvement equate to all of 50-100 damage extra, definately not worth it, Soresu and Shi-Cho are both miles ahead of it.

 

50-100 extra damage? Are you serious??

 

With Shien form activated at level 50 my Sweep goes from 990-1370 to 1443-1531. My Blade Storm goes from 1338-1448 to 1483-1649, and Overhead Slash goes from 1480-1643 to 1603-1980.

 

Furthermore it refunds 1 focus each attack which is essential for a Guardian that focuses on Vigilance since it's an extremely focus heavy build.

 

I don't think you played with Shien at all. Soresu sucks as a Vigilance heavy build because your damage is already bad enough as it is as a Vigilance spec and going Soresu just makes it worse and it makes it harder to generate focus from attacks.

 

And to all the naysayers that claim Accuracy sucks are ignorant. Accuracy is important for Vigilance builds because you need Sunder and Overhead Slash to hit. Overhead Slash is your hardest hitting attack and if you keep missing with Sunder then you won't get a debuff and be able to use Plasma Brand.

 

I've respecced numerous times and this is probably the best build for pure damage, in PvP that I've come across.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crZIGRRrudd0oZ0M.1

Edited February 12, 2012 by bamsmacked

[Zarthorn]

50-100 extra damage? Are you serious??

 

With Shien form activated at level 50 my Sweep goes from 990-1370 to 1443-1531. My Blade Storm goes from 1338-1448 to 1483-1649, and Overhead Slash goes from 1480-1643 to 1603-1980.

 

Furthermore it refunds 1 focus each attack which is essential for a Guardian that focuses on Vigilance since it's an extremely focus heavy build.

 

Read your own figures, 50-100 damage right there in black and white, this is what you gain for losing Guard and mitigation values, so outside a PVE environment, it really isn't worth it since in PvP you'll get plenty of focus from the abudant CC flying around.

[bamsmacked]

Read your own figures, 50-100 damage right there in black and white, this is what you gain for losing Guard and mitigation values, so outside a PVE environment, it really isn't worth it since in PvP you'll get plenty of focus from the abudant CC flying around.

 

Yeah from my experience that doesn't always happen.

 

Shien makes my attacks hit a lot harder and I can tell a noticeable difference when I switch to Soresu which is only when I have the ball in Hutt-ball.

 

You could switch over to your tanking stance when you're trying to do damage by focusing and the Vigilance spec and I'll probably kill you every single time.

 

Soresu doesn't increase your survivability that MUCH unless your a full defense spec, and I found that the Defense/Vigilance hybrid specs are toast compared to other classes that are specced in 1 tree.

 

EDIT - The damage figures are in the hundreds, minimum and maximum. Shien gives you a lot more than you're claiming.

 

I've seen some Defense/Focus hybrid specs that are viable but certainly not Vigilance and Defense hybrids considering that Vigilance has a hard enough time doing damage as it is and going Defense spec certainly isn't helping int he damage department.

Edited February 12, 2012 by bamsmacked

[VertisReaper]

Not sure what gear you guys have the tooltip on my OH reads over 2200. Class is borderline op. Whatever, these forums are full o lackluster players. Sentinels have a 30 page thread about how they need buffs Edited February 12, 2012 by VertisReaper

[bamsmacked]

Not sure what gear you guys have the tooltip on my OH reads over 2200. Class is borderline op. Whatever, these forums are full o lackluster players. Sentinels have a 30 page thread about how they need buffs

 

In full Champion PvP gear, with Adv Battle Enh 22 in all my open slots for Crit and Surge.

 

Maybe if I had more power enhs it would do over 2k.

[VertisReaper]

Im just confused on how people can say we do little damage when i'm chunking bm sorcs for 4k oh slashes, 2500 BS, 2k pb not to mention 500 dmg dot ticks Edited February 12, 2012 by VertisReaper

[bamsmacked]

Im just confused on how people can say we do little damage when i'm chunking bm sorcs for 4k oh slashes, 2500 BS, 2k pb not to mention 500 dmg dot ticks

 

Because when you're attacking a Mercenary, or a tank in general and an Overhead Slash crits for like 1.3k with 80% crit damage it's disappointing.

 

Things in light armor that isn't a tank, yeah you can destroy them easily. 2 of our main attacks are melee attacks Sunder and Overhead Slash which puts as at a disadvantage at times because it can get defended against, parry, or shield absorb and etc.

 

This is why our top tier talent needs to be considerably better. The initial scaling on Plasma Brand is weak, the DoT is also too long and the talent cools down before the DoT is exhausted, which means you'll be missing 1/4th of the damage assuming you use it again after cool down.

 

I can do a lot of damage, but I feel like I have to work my *** off and literally do everything perfect while other DPS classes have more damaging attacks, more utility, and have a lot more room for error.

[Ethias]

Something tells me you are mistaking level/gear gap for overpoweredness.

 

Seriously do yourself a favor and try a similar build with Soresu you'll notice a huge difference to your survivability and very little difference to your damage....this is because:

 

-Shien only increases your force and elemental damage by 6% (run the math thats pretty damn low)

 

-Single Saber mastery only works on weapon damage... blade storm, plasma brand, force sweep, force push, force stasis and burning effects do NOT I repeat do NOT get increased in any way, shape or form from Single Saber mastery!.

 

Judging by your posts you sound like you haven't played the class very much at level 50, if at all....trust me you will die a LOT if you try to PvP in Shien form because you are a heck of a lot more squishy than Shi Cho or Soresu stance Guardians, this is why many make mention of how terrible Shien is and that it needs a buff to bring it up to par with other stances.

 

I've tried both in two levels of gear, and my increase in survivability in Soresu is minimal at best. It's more about playstyle. The only time I have found it useful is to switch into Soresu after picking up the flag in a group of enemies in Huttball, and using it to get out, because I can't follow my typical playstyle of being an insane jumping lunatic.

 

I'm currently only rank 50, but I did 0 pvp before 50. Mid way through centurion gear I switched over to Vig and Shien, and I die FAR less as Vig using Shien than I ever did as Focus using Soresu. Obviously a vig/def hybrid would have the extra CD, but IMO a CD is only so effective... the key to surviving on this class is playstyle and positioning, and Shien helps you put out more damage when you do engage. I occasionally was topping damage as Vig outside of Voidstar, just about always top 3 in every game, even before I got my champ saber. Now that I have it, I am only ever below the top spot if I am focusing on objectives while others roam.

 

The biggest reason to use Soresu is not increased survival but ability to guard.

 

FYI the biggest part of Shien is not JUST the +damage% increase, but the focus return with that damage.

 

Vig guardian in Shien, if played correctly, is a very potent damage dealer that can really mess up an opponent's squishies.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ethias

[VertisReaper]

I can't wait till I have more accuracy so I can drop the 3% talent for xen strike. I've been clipping masterstrike after the first 2 instant attacks and I wish I could use it more often. the first 2 hits hard as my oh strike for 0 focus Edited February 12, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Drakks]

Focus > Vig any way you slice it for pvp.

 

Vigs weakness is that the damage is spread across multiple hits that can be broken for any number of reasons -- not only is the damage incredibly easy to heal through, if they break your rotation the damage can really go to nothing. There is no counter-arguement to this, and you can simply duel a healer and ask them if you don't want to believe me.

 

Focus is top in pvp because of the way in which the damage is applied, and by virtue of doing it you're snaring your target. It boosts crit magnitude on our two biggest hitters (BS and Sweep), creating situations where you can drop groups of players, or spread the damage hard and wide enough that it creates amazing kill opportunies without even focusing the healer (no class AE heals well -- and if you're hitting the healer for 5k, and the two guys guarding him for 4k, someone will die).

 

Does this in ANY way mean Vig is bad or unusable? No, of course not. But the way the game stands right now there is no competition for our top damage spec in pvp being Focus.

 

For pve? Vig should win hands down in a flat dps race where your rotation can be done in enough interations.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Drakks

[Zarthorn]

I've tried both in two levels of gear, and my increase in survivability in Soresu is minimal at best. It's more about playstyle. The only time I have found it useful is to switch into Soresu after picking up the flag in a group of enemies in Huttball, and using it to get out, because I can't follow my typical playstyle of being an insane jumping lunatic.

 

I'm currently only rank 50, but I did 0 pvp before 50. Mid way through centurion gear I switched over to Vig and Shien, and I die FAR less as Vig using Shien than I ever did as Focus using Soresu. Obviously a vig/def hybrid would have the extra CD, but IMO a CD is only so effective... the key to surviving on this class is playstyle and positioning, and Shien helps you put out more damage when you do engage. I occasionally was topping damage as Vig outside of Voidstar, just about always top 3 in every game, even before I got my champ saber. Now that I have it, I am only ever below the top spot if I am focusing on objectives while others roam.

 

The biggest reason to use Soresu is not increased survival but ability to guard.

 

FYI the biggest part of Shien is not JUST the +damage% increase, but the focus return with that damage.

 

Vig guardian in Shien, if played correctly, is a very potent damage dealer that can really mess up an opponent's squishies.

 

Vigi/Def also has the extra % increase base mitigation, I'm also not denying that Shien has good damage potential, but offset it against the loss of Soresu and Guard and not having perhaps one of our more useful mitigation cooldowns and you'll see why the Hybrid is technically better than Shien full Vigil in a PvP situation (that cooldown can often be the difference between holding a point and losing a point)

 

Not forgetting how lacking the burns are, plasma brand is alright but the effect burns on blade storm and overhead slash are really lacking (I laughed when I tried the build and saw that they only do 50 damage per tick)

 

Again, this is why full Vigil is primarly a PvE build, focus isn't really an issue with leap, saber throw, stasis, combat focus and defiance as well as picking up free of cost sweep and snare while being able to bladestorm for free after leaping which will crit thanks to overhead slash.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Zarthorn