Some thoughts about the Dark Side

[Captain_Marley]

It's interesting how most Empire players I've interacted with seem to take the DS choices as the only valid option. All the time. I myself play as a mostly LS Sith Assassin, and it is not uncommon that people ask me why. Now, it's not exactly a surprise that the Sith are regarded as evil, and therefore the DS choices often seem appropriate. All the Sith npc's in the game pretty much confirm this.

 

This is hardly any news, and not something that bothers me that much. It is however interesting how people argue that the DS way is the prefered one. Or rather, why they think that it's more fun to play as an evil character than someone more balanced or even good.

 

The argument tends to be something along the lines of: "In real life I'm a good guy, so in a videogame I'd rather be the opposite". Although understandable it doesn't explain why that would make you automatically choose sadistic or otherwise pure evil actions.

 

A friend told me that he picks all the evil choices because he is "playing a role", and that it's "only a game" which makes it okay. This is of course partly true, but at the same time it's a role that you yourself choose or even create. So it kind of has to be based on what you enjoy and want to play as. There is nothing strange with wanting to be the bad guy for a change, but there are some really disturbing choices that you have to make in order to be fully DS, and that people are willing to make. Does this not at all reflect a part of their personality?

 

As a LS Sith Assassin I play a role aswell, and I do things that I obviously wouldn't in real life. But I never pick options that are sadistic or overly cruel. This is because that despite the game being just that - a game - and not real life, I still feel that it reflects a certain kind of reality. Therefore it seems kind of disturbing that people enjoy the sometimes extremely evil DS choices, without any connection to what it represents or would mean in a realistic setting.

 

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this though. It could indeed be a desire to max out either the LS or DS for gear, and a Sith is obviously closer to the DS. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you have to say about this, and the reasons why you play either LS or DS.

[Stealthy_Monkey]

From my view, and pretty much all the people I've chatted to about it- given that there's a gear advantage to play one or the other fully, they might as well make it a toggle on the character creation screen

[MustrumRidcully]

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this though.

Generally, I think you are.

 

It could indeed be a desire to max out either the LS or DS for gear, and a Sith is obviously closer to the DS. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you have to say about this, and the reasons why you play either LS or DS.

It was a lot about maxing out the DS and see where it leads. A lot of choices I found more "Evil Stupid" then dark side. At first, I didn't do it with my SI, and I actually picked a few LS choices. But at some point I decided I wanted to see all of the Dark Side (including the concern for items, but also to see where the story would lead).

 

Wen I play Dark Side, I tend to feel a little more... remote from my character. I know I pick plenty of choices I wouldn't take. And sometimes not just because they're evil, but sometimes also because it feels like i am playing a psychopath (enjoys killing or torture for the sake of it) rather than a sociopath (lacks empathy, killing and torture is a potential tool, if risks are worth the rewards).

[ErebusRex]

The system in place kind of annoys me. Since there's no mechanic in place to allow for seduction to the dark side as a Jedi or redemption for a Sith, choosing the opposing alignment response only punishes you in the long run. I think it would work better if the options available filtered you into subclasses of light/dark instead.

 

Whether you are labeled as a Compassionate Jedi vs. Guardian of the Republic, for instance, would depend on whether you put the needs of the people over the needs of the Republic, or vice-versa.

 

As my Sith Sorcerer I was hoping for a lot more choices focusing on manipulation and deception, but was pretty much forced to choose between kicking a puppy or letting it go, with letting it go punishing me down the road by slowing my advancement towards special gear.

 

I don't know. The system seems a bit too shallow in a couple areas. I wish the game had more options to lie, for example. If the same conversation mechanics applied to the movies as they do to the game, Palpatine would've been been showered with light side points throughout the prequels.

[Urushira]

Star Wars ( at least in the movies ) is most assuredly a morality play. Theres room to explore nuances that cannot be approached gracefully in any gaming construct. Although i agree that temptation, seduction, sedition and entrapment would be interesting for some of us, allowing us to safely explore some of the alternate sides of our own psyche's, I simply cant see where it would be entertaining for the masses. Topping that, is the incredible pressure the game industry has from outside forces such as the church. Mind you that although the church insisted and enforced their idea that the world was flat for several hundred years, and we've all learned the lesson of what happens when paranoia is allowed to run rampant, people still give in to the fears voluntary ignorance leads too. So the game industry is stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, they need to create entertaining games that the majority of people will enjoy, and on the other hand they need to appease the fears of some groups that are convinced that if you think of something evil, it becomes real.

 

Given what they had to work with, i thing Bioware did an ok job of it. Sure, its pablum. Its watered down, trivialized, mad black and white, but from an entertainment and moralistic standpoint, they did the best they could.

[Urushira]

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this though. It could indeed be a desire to max out either the LS or DS for gear, and a Sith is obviously closer to the DS. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you have to say about this, and the reasons why you play either LS or DS.

 

 

Doesnt it just suck to be a moth in a forest of differently colored flames??

My chracters are all pretty neutral. Oddly, my sth character is neutral neutral. the rest are a little more to the LS than that.

 

Why i play them i dont know. Its more engrossing than Mario?? Perhaps its because, i'm old. I've got an entire lifetime of ugly hateful memories, and even if its just in a game i'd like to see something good, just once?? Pathetic yes, but a valid excuse. I'm a combat vet in real life. Perhaps i play because the combat is the only thing i can truly relate too?? The Simms simply never did a thing for me.. I'm not your typical house pet..

 

After five days of intense eighteen hour a day gaming, i'm not as attached to any of my characters as i thought i would be. Its not that i'm bored. Its the world. Like so many others, its dirty, ugly, dark. Theres little there thats appealing. Even in Nam there were bright moments. The smile from the locals, a day out on the town, hustling pool, swiming in the south china sea. These were little things, but they existed. In this and other games, there is nothing like that. Its just the same old drivel every day. Its hard to remain attracted to something that does little more than kick your butt every day, all day, without a break.

 

I play my characters because i like to win. I know my own strengths and weaknesses ( especially with a keyboard ) and i play several characters so that i can find the one that has the capability to excell. I know thatsodd in a game that has no end, but its just me. I'm always competitive, though what i consider to be win may not be what others consider winning. Mostly I like my smuggler. Shes a lot like me. clumsy, silly at times, alwaysa bit behind thecurve, but always willing to go through hell for what she wants. I play her because shes comfortable. Like me, shes a loner. Like me, shes got more important things on her mind than where her next meal is coming from, or the color of someones underwear.. She gives a rat, for all the right things. I play her because she fits.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Urushira

[slashsnake]

I don't think the choices in this game reflect any kind of morality in real life. It is a game, when you are done leveling you have probably killed HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people (in the game) through your force powers as a Sith. Zapping someone for info or backstabbing someone in a cut scene for DS points is nothing in comparison.

 

Most Sith probably do choose DS solutions and most Jedi probably choose LS solutions. When most people think of the Sith, they think of the dark side, and vice versa for Jedi. I think that for most people is their original DS or LS decision here. Yes, you can be a LS Sith or DS Jedi, and there are some who do, but likewise, of the hundreds of Sith in SW lore, how many were truly good light side people? And of the hundreds of Jedi (not turned into Sith, but actual Jedi) how many were dark sided?

 

As for balanced. Maybe there are later in the game, but I have yet to see any special benefits in game (weapons, armor), for being balanced (between light 1 and dark 1). It's like most games, be a saint or the devil, but anything in between limits your options from what I have seen, and that is fine with me.

 

I chose a Sith because I find it fun to be the bad guy in this fantasy game. I play DS because that is what I want that character to be. Nothing more. I am not sit here and say that someone playing DS and making those choices says anything about their morality as a person, just like I won't say Hayden Christiansen is a bad person because of the things he did in a movie portraying a Sith. Anthony Hopkins may have done some very disgusting and awful things in his portrayal of Hannibal Lecter. That doesn't mean he himself is a disgusting or awful person.

 

Same situation here. Your character doesn't have to reflect you.

Edited February 11, 2012 by slashsnake

[sparklecat]

I don't choose DS or LS choices as such; I create a character, then choose what's closest to what they would do in that situation. So far, I've had one Sith remain neutral that way who, broadly speaking, enjoys hurting enemies but will put that to the side for the good of the Empire in most cases, and one go dark due to overcompensating for the former slave thing, but who's way more well-adjusted than the first. Regarding the more psychotic options you can take... unless there's a beneficial reason to do so, I don't find characters who would especially complex, so I don't play them. If my primary focus was getting the best equipment, I imagine I would.

[sparklecat]

As for balanced. Maybe there are later in the game, but I have yet to see any special benefits in game (weapons, armor), for being balanced (between light 1 and dark 1).

 

Yeah, not really. My level 50 neutral Sith doesn't even have any relics equipped. Hopefully they'll add some things for us in time.

[Urushira]

 

Same situation here. Your character doesn't have to reflect you.

 

So true. But if that is the case, what is the draw to playing that character?? I ask this because, when i play, i'm playing myself ( or an aspect of myself ) in a situation that i normally wouldnt find myself in. So yeah, its weird. It doesnt matter if i'm in battlefield 3, ME, SWTOR, Skyrim or Mabinogi, each game reflects a different aspect of myself. So you see, in my twisted little global view of things my character always reflects me, and likewise i never make the choices i wouldnt make in real life.

[Captain_Marley]

I chose a Sith because I find it fun to be the bad guy in this fantasy game. I play DS because that is what I want that character to be. Nothing more. I am not sit here and say that someone playing DS and making those choices says anything about their morality as a person, just like I won't say Hayden Christiansen is a bad person because of the things he did in a movie portraying a Sith. Anthony Hopkins may have done some very disgusting and awful things in his portrayal of Hannibal Lecter. That doesn't mean he himself is a disgusting or awful person.

 

Same situation here. Your character doesn't have to reflect you.

 

Firstly, you are absolutely right about the fact that your character doesn't have to reflect you. Although it kind of makes it more interesting (or easier) for me. But I think you are wrong about the comparison to movies, and the roles of Hayden Christiansen and Anthony Hopkins. They are paid actors that act according to the script. In a game such as this you yourself create and develop a character without any limitations except the game-rules.

 

What I have been thinking about lately is that acts of extreme evil in the game, such as torture and other sadistic behaviour, seem to be the norm for many DS players. And if that is the case, is the players to be blamed, or Bioware for making those choices available? And can you always say that it's okay "because it's just a game"? Perhaps, but somehow it doesn't seem right.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Captain_Marley

[Captain_Marley]

Doesnt it just suck to be a moth in a forest of differently colored flames??

My chracters are all pretty neutral. Oddly, my sth character is neutral neutral. the rest are a little more to the LS than that.

 

Why i play them i dont know. Its more engrossing than Mario?? Perhaps its because, i'm old. I've got an entire lifetime of ugly hateful memories, and even if its just in a game i'd like to see something good, just once?? Pathetic yes, but a valid excuse. I'm a combat vet in real life. Perhaps i play because the combat is the only thing i can truly relate too?? The Simms simply never did a thing for me.. I'm not your typical house pet..

 

After five days of intense eighteen hour a day gaming, i'm not as attached to any of my characters as i thought i would be. Its not that i'm bored. Its the world. Like so many others, its dirty, ugly, dark. Theres little there thats appealing. Even in Nam there were bright moments. The smile from the locals, a day out on the town, hustling pool, swiming in the south china sea. These were little things, but they existed. In this and other games, there is nothing like that. Its just the same old drivel every day. Its hard to remain attracted to something that does little more than kick your butt every day, all day, without a break.

 

I play my characters because i like to win. I know my own strengths and weaknesses ( especially with a keyboard ) and i play several characters so that i can find the one that has the capability to excell. I know thatsodd in a game that has no end, but its just me. I'm always competitive, though what i consider to be win may not be what others consider winning. Mostly I like my smuggler. Shes a lot like me. clumsy, silly at times, alwaysa bit behind thecurve, but always willing to go through hell for what she wants. I play her because shes comfortable. Like me, shes a loner. Like me, shes got more important things on her mind than where her next meal is coming from, or the color of someones underwear.. She gives a rat, for all the right things. I play her because she fits.

 

Thanks for a very interesting read

[Kyrel]

No one's to blame, dude.

 

Your taking this a wee bit too seriously and over analyzing this to high heavens. The vicious, cruel and evil choices are there because they tell a different kind of story. If it bothers you, don't pick them. Very simple.

 

It's very much established that for the Sith end always justifies the means, so if torture violence and sacrificing others gets you to that end faster... After all Anakin slaughters a temple full of children for just a mere vague promise of a chance to save Padme.

 

I do agree, sometimes the darkside choices on Sith Empire are pretty grim. But I would be disappointed if the Sith storylines were not, they are now remaining true to the lore. While you are sometimes kicking the puppy, it's not kicking the puppy for the sake of kicking the puppy. It's kicking the puppy because the whole Sith Empire culture teaches you to do so if it benefits you in anyway.

 

Saying that choosing a lightning torture option over the dialogue option somehow reflects on the players morality or personality is just crap. It's like saying because someone likes horror movies that there's something wrong with them and they want to go on a killing spree.

 

Then there's the fact that the game design supports you going with the chosen alignment of your faction. Which is probably why majority of Sith end up dark side and Republic ends up light side, especially with the end game gear in mind or even down the road. I can say from personal experience that it's a fairly rocky road for a Dark Jedi when a lot of the rewards and special weapons you get require you to be a light sider, not to mention having to make your own crystals even for the sabres you can use. I imagine this is what also drives huge chucnk of people to go with the Dark Side choice with the Sith Empire.

 

And of course, some people just want to play the villain for their entertainment. Kind of like some people prefer Vampire the Masquerade over DnD, it does not either group of people any worse for liking a different flavour of entertainment. Nor does it make the provider of that product any worse.

[Captain_Marley]

Hm, yes. But I find it naive when people think there's no connection between violence in media and violence in reality. No, the first do not lead to the later, that's the absurd opinion of certain conservative videogame-haters. That's not the point. But nor do I buy the idea that games and other media doesn't have any impact on the attitude towards violence in general.

 

For people to choose the option to perform overly cruel things in a game, some sort of motivation is nedeed. Now, the motivation can be, as some people have said here, to get DS points. But for this to be valid you need to not care about the consequences of these choices. Or atleast, to think that the reward outweights the suffering that is caused. All I'm saying is that it could be a bad thing, that the bar for what kind of evil actions people are willing to commit in games is raised. Or maybe not, but I think it's an interesting question.

[Mechavomit]

For people to choose the option to perform overly cruel things in a game, some sort of motivation is nedeed. Now, the motivation can be, as some people have said here, to get DS points. But for this to be valid you need to not care about the consequences of these choices. Or atleast, to think that the reward outweights the suffering that is caused. All I'm saying is that it could be a bad thing, that the bar for what kind of evil actions people are willing to commit in games is raised. Or maybe not, but I think it's an interesting question.

 

I created my character long before the game was released and decided back then that he's going to be evil at the very beginning. Not going to go through the entire backstory, but I did choose enough DS choices because I felt it fit the chracter. I did feel sorry for all those pixels I had to kill. THAT was what felt wrong. The fact that I care for something that is "just a game"

[sparklecat]

For people to choose the option to perform overly cruel things in a game, some sort of motivation is nedeed. Now, the motivation can be, as some people have said here, to get DS points. But for this to be valid you need to not care about the consequences of these choices. Or atleast, to think that the reward outweights the suffering that is caused. All I'm saying is that it could be a bad thing, that the bar for what kind of evil actions people are willing to commit in games is raised. Or maybe not, but I think it's an interesting question.

 

What suffering is caused? Because I'm pretty sure that piece of code whose family I just killed isn't going to suffer lifelong trauma as a result.

 

 

 

As well, how are you defining "overly cruel", and why? As an example, there was one situation in which my Sith force choked some Imperial for slipping out of a respectful tone and appearing to give her an order. It was cruel, and I could have instead gone for a verbal correction, or ignored it. But consider the implications if this was a real-life situation; this guy just behaved in a way that, if it had been a lot of other Sith, would have gotten him killed outright. And not only that, but he did it in front of a bunch of other soldiers; what message would they take away if she ignored it or responded mildly? That this was at worst a slightly unacceptable way to act towards Sith? That Sith weren't dangerous? Not responding harshly would have been irresponsible of her, when it comes to looking out for the welfare of those serving her.

 

 

So here, as in so many other situations, context matters. We're playing a role, yes, but our characters are often playing a role as well, where not taking the DS choices is going to cause problems down the line, either in the sense I described above or because it would make others around them question their strength or loyalty to the Empire, which places them in danger. And this makes for fun roleplaying; I've got a LS Sith in the works who will do nice things, but only if nobody important is likely to see or find out, and absolutely will never admit to such. Before you decide that all the apparently over-the-top choices are going too far and indicative of some psychosis in the players, consider the environment and situations in which the characters find themselves. And whether you would have done things so differently in their shoes.

[Captain_Marley]

What suffering is caused? Because I'm pretty sure that piece of code whose family I just killed isn't going to suffer lifelong trauma as a result.

 

Don't be silly. A theoretical suffering of course, or rather, the imaginary suffering that the npc's experience from your actions. No, I'm not saying that they actually feel anything. I'm not going to fight for the rights of, like you said, a piece of code, although that would be hilarious. I'm talking about the connection between an imaginary world and what it represents. Which is something far from reality, but that depicts people in a somewhat realistic way.

 

And, as for overly cruel I guess it means what the majority of the general public see as not okay. But that can depend on a lot of things, so I won't put any effort in trying to decide what it really is. Just a term that suits what I meant.

 

And don't jump to conclusions. I never gave any specific examples, and I don't have anything against playing as an "evil" character. I'm a Sith Assassin myself. What I wanted to know was how people motivate some of the more extreme choices - and a lot of answers have been given here already. This is not an attempt to judge anyone, I just point out a problem I have with the idea that games have nothing to do with real life values. I think they do to some extent. How much I couldn't possibly know - not to a dangerous level of course.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Captain_Marley

[Undrask]

I make decisions as I would make them as myself. That has so far put me almost exactly neutral, fluctuating frpm light to dark in stints.

[sparklecat]

Don't be silly. A theoretical suffering of course, or rather, the imaginary suffering that the npc's experience from your actions. No, I'm not saying that they actually feel anything. I'm not going to fight for the rights of, like you said, a piece of code, although that would be hilarious. I'm talking about the connection between an imaginary world and what it represents. Which is something far from reality, but that depicts people in a somewhat realistic way.

 

And, as for overly cruel I guess it means what the majority of the general public see as not okay. But that can depend on a lot of things, so I won't put any effort in trying to decide what it really is. Just a term that suits what I meant.

 

And don't jump to conclusions. I never gave any specific examples, and I don't have anything against playing as an "evil" character. I'm a Sith Assassin myself. What I wanted to know was how people motivate some of the more extreme choices - and a lot of answers have been given here already. This is not an attempt to judge anyone, I just point out a problem I have with the idea that games have nothing to do with real life values. I think they do to some extent. How much I couldn't possibly know - not to a dangerous level of course.

 

So just to make sure I understand you, all you're trying to argue for here is the idea that our actions in game reflect our real-life morality, though not in any proportionate way (i.e., the fact that I'm willing to force choke that guy and my friend Bob isn't means Bob has a higher moral standard than I, not that I'd actually be willing to force choke anyone real)?

[CIRSyndic]

What exactly are you trying to say, that nobody would ever behave like their in-game character? We as a race have done nothing but that throughout history, butchery and murder are bread and butter to humanity.

 

What the game presents is a percentage of players/people that choose Dark Side because:

a) They enjoy it

b) They are doing it because they benefit from it

 

And thats pretty much what humanity is. Some of us are selfish and will happily murder someone to get what they want, some are murdering because they enjoy it, some will go out of their way to save someone, and so on.

 

That's one of the beauties of Star Wars, it's about humanity itself and what we're capable of both in the good and in the evil capacity.

[ErebusRex]

It ultimately depends on the individual gamer. Since you don't control your destiny in SWTOR (at the moment) and are pigeonholed to either Sith/Empire or Jedi/Sith, I play the game more as if I'm writing the script of a character, rather than personally identifying with that character, or making decisions akin to how I would approach something in real life.

 

I believe it's entirely possible that there are gamers making dark side choices because they are naturally cruel in the real world, but I don't think it's fair to judge anyone you're grouped with based on what they're choosing as dialogue options without knowing them personally (and even then, how much do you really know folks?).

 

I'm playing a Jedi right now, doing all the dirty work for the common man and running errands like I'm their lapdog, but that in no way implies that I'm a saint in real life. It's much more likely that I would've probably told "quest-giver x" to stop prattling on about his needs and to go save the kitten himself.

[Tuscad]

It's interesting how most Empire players I've interacted with seem to take the DS choices as the only valid option. All the time. I myself play as a mostly LS Sith Assassin, and it is not uncommon that people ask me why. Now, it's not exactly a surprise that the Sith are regarded as evil, and therefore the DS choices often seem appropriate. All the Sith npc's in the game pretty much confirm this.

 

This is hardly any news, and not something that bothers me that much. It is however interesting how people argue that the DS way is the prefered one. Or rather, why they think that it's more fun to play as an evil character than someone more balanced or even good.

 

The argument tends to be something along the lines of: "In real life I'm a good guy, so in a videogame I'd rather be the opposite". Although understandable it doesn't explain why that would make you automatically choose sadistic or otherwise pure evil actions.

 

A friend told me that he picks all the evil choices because he is "playing a role", and that it's "only a game" which makes it okay. This is of course partly true, but at the same time it's a role that you yourself choose or even create. So it kind of has to be based on what you enjoy and want to play as. There is nothing strange with wanting to be the bad guy for a change, but there are some really disturbing choices that you have to make in order to be fully DS, and that people are willing to make. Does this not at all reflect a part of their personality?

 

As a LS Sith Assassin I play a role aswell, and I do things that I obviously wouldn't in real life. But I never pick options that are sadistic or overly cruel. This is because that despite the game being just that - a game - and not real life, I still feel that it reflects a certain kind of reality. Therefore it seems kind of disturbing that people enjoy the sometimes extremely evil DS choices, without any connection to what it represents or would mean in a realistic setting.

 

Maybe I'm overanalyzing this though. It could indeed be a desire to max out either the LS or DS for gear, and a Sith is obviously closer to the DS. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to see what the rest of you have to say about this, and the reasons why you play either LS or DS.

 

Just so you know, I am darkside in real life, I just don't make it obvious.

[Nidous]

There is no such thing as Light or Dark side in SWTOR. No matter what you are you are forced to fix everybody's problems. There is no choice, and therefore no real consequences. If I kill this NPC just for the fun of it or I let them live and probably do more of their work for them the end result is the same: the quest is done and I receive the same rewards one way or the other.

 

If I had true choice I would tell 90% of the mission givers to go F--- themselves, question their intelligence, question their sexuality, gawk over their mother's obvious incestual background, and proclaim their laziness for all around to hear. Much like I do in the real world.

 

Plus, it's as simple as Sith are designed to be one extreme and Jedi the other. That's the basic Star Wars structure and currently there are no real options for being anything other than those two ends. You will gimp yourself on gear choices and the stories have no room for Sith who want to convert or Jedi who fall. Simple as that.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Nidous

[gaskull]

I choose DS for my SI, since I saw it as the fitting path for a Sith, but really I can conjure the imaganiation to put things into context as sith..you're supposed to be the "alpha-predator" show you'r teeth & let people know that you can bite instead of growling etc, but really when it came to dialogue options I tended to think what I'd do in a certain situation ,go for this or that..so it might reflect some actuall part of me in a certain situation, but only maybe..since I could choose the LS option instead from time to time, when I felt it was the most appropriate.

Btw..if gear is a concern for you..you can always get dimplomacy..and just spam up DS/LS if you want

 

Darth_Reyeja-Kâli

Edited February 13, 2012 by gaskull

[gaskull]

There is no such thing as Light or Dark side in SWTOR. No matter what you are you are forced to fix everybody's problems. There is no choice, and therefore no real consequences. If I kill this NPC just for the fun of it or I let them live and probably do more of their work for them the end result is the same: the quest is done and I receive the same rewards one way or the other.

 

If I had true choice I would tell 90% of the mission givers to go F--- themselves, question their intelligence, question their sexuality, gawk over their mother's obvious incestual background, and proclaim their laziness for all around to hear. Much like I do in the real world.

 

Plus, it's as simple as Sith are designed to be one extreme and Jedi the other. That's the basic Star Wars structure and currently there are no real options for being anything other than those two ends. You will gimp yourself on gear choices and the stories have no room for Sith who want to convert or Jedi who fall. Simple as that.

 

I cant help but grin widely at this, great post sir!