deep tactics spec - y u no viable?

[Phixler]

it has almost no dps for pvp, shame cause its a very unique and interesting tree.

 

I disagree. It has solid burst when played correctly. That being said, Assault is probably better overall, but tactics can definitely do some great damage.

 

I also am growing very fond of the in-combat move speed especially for pre-kiting. Once you break the snare on a melee I can't count how many times they chase me for a few seconds then run away when they realize they aren't catching me lol...then i get to chase them with increased move speed and finish them off.

 

I think alot of people aren't giving it a as much of a chance as they should. I won't deny it needs some help/tweaks, but I think alot of that is due to the OP-ness of our tanking bullets...it's really hard to give that up for a small %damage increase.

 

Then again i always play the weak/non-played specs so meh, take it for what it's worth.

[Riulassher]

I specced Tactics for the first time (full tactics) and after last two days my first impressions are:

 

I feel a lot more squishy than my previous "Bulldog" build. Not because I lost 15% mitigation from Ion Cell but because it requires me to get closer earlier and more often. The difference between melee Gut and ranged IR is significant. The AP+HIB spike is gone, but Tactics hit hard and fast. It's something between heavy burst and sustained pressure damage.

 

I was doing miserably until I noticed that I could afford to spam Ion Pulse far more often than in Shield or Assault spec, while waiting for cds on other skills. And it hits so hard, I couldn't believe my eyes when these spammable 2k+ Ion Pulse crits started popping even without any adrenals

 

I hate Fire Pulse effect even more than Energy Blast. The skill is great and it does awesome damage, but I just don't see any effects, just a 1-2s after pressing a button my target pops a number and burns for a second. Weird, during first few fights as Tactics I thought it didn't activate.

 

Hold the Line is great, but that's obvious. Upgraded Riot Strike is awesome as well.

 

I felt I could kill targets more reliably with Tactics than with Assault, I had more tools to finish the enemy and counter his plans. After first few scenarios I was starting to get similar numbers on damage/kills in WZs as with Assault spec before.

 

The only bad thing is that I have 4 pieces of Eliminator, Combat Tech armor would be better.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Riulassher

[Raggok]

I specced Tactics for the first time (full tactics) and after last two days my first impressions are:

 

I feel a lot more squishy than my previous "Bulldog" build. Not because I lost 15% mitigation from Ion Cell but because it requires me to get closer earlier and more often. The difference between melee Gut and ranged IR is significant. The AP+HIB spike is gone, but Tactics hit hard and fast. It's something between heavy burst and sustained pressure damage.

 

I was doing miserably until I noticed that I could afford to spam Ion Pulse far more often than in Shield or Assault spec, while waiting for cds on other skills. And it hits so hard, I couldn't believe my eyes when these spammable 2k+ Ion Pulse crits started popping even without any adrenals

 

I hate Fire Pulse effect even more than Energy Blast. The skill is great and it does awesome damage, but I just don't see any effects, just a 1-2s after pressing a button my target pops a number and burns for a second. Weird, during first few fights as Tactics I thought it didn't activate.

 

Hold the Line is great, but that's obvious. Upgraded Riot Strike is awesome as well.

 

I felt I could kill targets more reliably with Tactics than with Assault, I had more tools to finish the enemy and counter his plans. After first few scenarios I was starting to get similar numbers on damage/kills in WZs as with Assault spec before.

 

The only bad thing is that I have 4 pieces of Eliminator, Combat Tech armor would be better.

 

Agreed on everything here, except that I feel the Tactics/Assault Hybrid is still better for solo PvP. IMO, damage trumps survivability when it comes to running solo and losing that plasma cell DoT has a lot more impact than I thought it would. I'll be doing a deep tactics movie running ion cell in the relatively near future.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Raggok

[Riulassher]

Agreed on everything here, except that I feel the Tactics/Assault Hybrid is still better for solo PvP. IMO, damage trumps survivability when it comes to running solo and losing that plasma cell DoT has a lot more impact than I thought it would. I'll be doing a deep tactics movie running ion cell in the relatively near future.

 

Tactics/Assault is the one I am going to try next, but for now I will stick to full tactics. I want to get a good thorough understanding of this tree before I move on.

 

Every spec has a different feel and forces me to adopt slightly different strategies, and I often discover something that would be also effective in my previous specs.

[Xevron]

I tried Assault. No good.

 

I went full Tactics. I am death. If you've never seen a Vanguard get a 5k dmg medal, it's probably because everyone is Assault.

 

First off, ammo regen every 6 seconds is unbelievable. Second, Ion pulse is my go-to for off-cd. It crits for 2.5k. I can do it probably 15 times+ before I'm out of ammo. Third the AE damage is remarkable: I can click every buff item I have, then neural surge a group of people, pulse generator them all for 2.5k a crit for 3x (7.5k) then mash my Hold The Line and use a well-aimed Mortar volley that crits for up to 3.6k per tick ( 10kdmg) to all those enemies. That's a dead team. If you think that this is some sort of golden situation, think how often you get a door or node with all these people scurrying around trying to hit healers or sentinels and you can just demolish them.

 

So far between both specs, Tactics is far, far better 1v1 and 1vN.

 

PS:

 

My stick Grenade crits for 2-3k....on all targets. AP seems greatly lacking~

[Daning]

I tried Assault. No good.

 

I went full Tactics. I am death. If you've never seen a Vanguard get a 5k dmg medal, it's probably because everyone is Assault.

 

First off, ammo regen every 6 seconds is unbelievable. Second, Ion pulse is my go-to for off-cd. It crits for 2.5k. I can do it probably 15 times+ before I'm out of ammo. Third the AE damage is remarkable: I can click every buff item I have, then neural surge a group of people, pulse generator them all for 2.5k a crit for 3x (7.5k) then mash my Hold The Line and use a well-aimed Mortar volley that crits for up to 3.6k per tick ( 10kdmg) to all those enemies. That's a dead team. If you think that this is some sort of golden situation, think how often you get a door or node with all these people scurrying around trying to hit healers or sentinels and you can just demolish them.

 

So far between both specs, Tactics is far, far better 1v1 and 1vN.

 

PS:

 

My stick Grenade crits for 2-3k....on all targets. AP seems greatly lacking~

 

What are your stats? In Half and half of BM and champ gear I can't even get a 4k crit as tactics, while as assault 4.5k is the norm with HiB. But I agree with you that tactics is thoroughly underrated. Fantastic reliability and consistency in damage output.

[Sandzibar]

Id also like to know what gear your running.. id expect its power/surge mods over crit/surge to get those sort of hits out of a full tactic spec.

 

i would do that.. but im concerned that my crit rate would drop off dramatically if i go full power/surge - thus making surge and the 30% extra crit dmg tree choice less effective.

 

what do you find in this regard ?

Edited February 18, 2012 by Sandzibar

[Riulassher]

Hmm, Hold The Line as protection of channeling, Pulse Cannon and/or Mortar Volley on top of Neural Surge and adrenals...

 

*calculates*

 

 

:eek:

 

 

AoE stun -> Pulse Cannon -> Sentinel's AoE mezz -> Mortar Volley -> game over.

 

though more likely:

 

AoE stun -> Pulse Can ~ happy sage knockbacks everything to all directions ~ non....

Edited February 19, 2012 by Riulassher

[Kesrik]

I went full Tactics. I am death. If you've never seen a Vanguard get a 5k dmg medal, it's probably because everyone is Assault.

 

Basically lying. If you look at ability scaling in Tactics, there is no way you can hit for 5k+ with any ability even if you pop every single CD. Well, maybe if your opponent is in light armor with 0 expertise. If we are talking about that, Assault does 2x 5k+ crits in the same global.

[Xevron]

I actually hoped to see a lot more "you're dumb" or "you're lying" posts. Shocked I only saw 1 or 2.

 

My gear is mostly Champion Combat Tech and BM Combat Tech with some Supercommando stuff because I was a BM pre 1.1 and my job was to defend nodes, not try to blow people up. But as of 2 weeks or so ago I've switched and turns out I do pretty well at that too.

 

I'm not a biochem because I had the firm belief that TOR would actually make armstech worthwhile eventually, even though it hasn't yet, so the only outside buffs I run with are the +aim/power 2 hour buff and then the expertise consumable with either my BM crit/surge or power trinket up. I tend to favor the power over the surge ones.

 

My stats are something like 300+ power, around 1500ish aim with buff, 23% crit because of all the passive crit on skills, and my surge is around 76%. I pretty much snarf the enhancements from the combat medic champ helm and put that in the BM combat tech gear. I prefer end/power/surge over end/crit/surge as I said we get a lot of passive crit.

 

In terms of hits (re: crits) I can get Ion Pulse to around 2.7k, HIB to 3.6kish, Mortar to 4k, Flame Pulse to 4k, Pulse Gen to 2.7k, stock strike iirc around 3-3.3k, and sticky to 3.2k. You're probably thinking that there's no 5k+ hit in there, and that's correct, because I've been this spec for probably 7 days now or so and I've been regearing with sup-bar gear. Add a biochem surge 3min on there and you should very well be able to reach 5k.

 

I'm pretty sure that one of you geared DPS people can probably test this out for you and yes, many of those hits are on low-expertise geared players, but with the expertise consumable many of those numbers are still fairly close on even War Heros.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Xevron
My char stats incorrectz!

[Romgaard]

U dp realize that the expertice pot does not stack with other adrenals...so thats a no go....

U should play more and teorycraft less.

 

I have not has a single 5K hit yet, came close once with 4.7, but thats VERY very rare.

 

IF any vanguards have ss of a 5K hit, im very interested in seeing that :-)

[Xevron]

U dp realize that the expertice pot does not stack with other adrenals...so thats a no go....

U should play more and teorycraft less.

 

I have not has a single 5K hit yet, came close once with 4.7, but thats VERY very rare.

 

IF any vanguards have ss of a 5K hit, im very interested in seeing that :-)

 

This is more of what I was expecting. Classic.

 

I'm not biochem, so I don't use those crafted adrenals and so I didn't know. I only have maybe 3 hours theorycrafting and 18 days played, so I think I'm doing alright.

[Raggok]

Post your stats, screenshots, and/or fraps. I'm curious why people who have the same stats as me are capable of critting for 1-2K more damage even when I use all my powerups.

 

My damage tops out around 3.6K on my hardest crits with a Tactics build.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Raggok

[Romgaard]

This is more of what I was expecting. Classic.

 

I'm not biochem, so I don't use those crafted adrenals and so I didn't know. I only have maybe 3 hours theorycrafting and 18 days played, so I think I'm doing alright.

 

U r a battlemaster after 18 days played?...impressive.............

 

And im on the same page as Raggog....I have simular stats as u, but i dont come close to those numbers u post....3.6K motar volley?...i have yet to see that

Edited February 19, 2012 by Romgaard

[Xevron]

Well you hit lvl 50 post 1.1 so your idea of valor grinding is different. Immensely different. I also had training out of town for 2 weeks and no internet.

 

I can't run FPS because I run on an old PoS laptop, but I'm currently running WZ's right now trying to get a good screenshot. The last game I got into mid-way and it was 12v12 and we didn't have healers, so it's not going too well. I got a 3.7k flame shock but I didn't SS it.

[Raggok]

My highest mortar volley crit has been around 2.8-2.9K. But that is not typical.

[Raggok]

I got a 3.7k flame shock but I didn't SS it.

 

That's reasonable to me, I know I've crit quite a few flame shocks for over 3.5K. None at or over 4K, though.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Raggok

[Xevron]

The Mortar Strike for 3.9k definitely made me soil myself. I had eliminated and entire team with 2 moves essentially. Maybe there were things going on like a grav round-esque debuff on them or something, but it definitely happened.

[Raggok]

The Mortar Strike for 3.9k definitely made me soil myself. I had eliminated and entire team with 2 moves essentially. Maybe there were things going on like a grav round-esque debuff on them or something, but it definitely happened.

 

Just crit a mortar volley for 3.2K after switching out to more power. So I think high 3Ks is doable with the right gear. But, it's pushing it.

[Xevron]

I've just been running games, didn't get any 3k's but got a lot of 2.9k mortars. Stars didn't quite align for me this time. Yeah, it's definitely possible and when I did my 3.9k I probably clicked my crit/surge trinket instead of my +power one, perhaps.

[Zunayson]

I would point out that tactics has the advantage of being primarily elemental and kinetic damage. Two things that armor does nothing for. I have had many occasion as a shield van to be irritated by people who completely ignore my armor in PvP (I'm looking at you merc/commando) through penetration. I'd say that these abilities, mixed with harpoon for specific target harvesting, and the immunity to being slowed down or annoyed by those crazy people who love CC a bit too much with Hold the Line makes a decent case. You can always slide around the HE slot and go straight for the ion in pvp. Gives you a little more survivability. I'd say it'd require a certain playstyle, and a strong dedication to finding the groove. But don't discount the value of ninja taunting targets to reduce their dps. It can really bail your team mates out of a bind when you tag an agent just as their about to unload on your healer. Anyway thats my two cents.

 

Kenetic is mitigated by armor. Internal is the one you're looking for.

[Kesrik]

You're probably thinking that there's no 5k+ hit in there, and that's correct, because I've been this spec for probably 7 days now or so and I've been regearing with sup-bar gear. Add a biochem surge 3min on there and you should very well be able to reach 5k.

 

So, when you said that you've crit for 5k, you were actually just lying about it. Assuming that you will eventually crit for 5k is completely different than actually doing it, especially when the assumption is wrong. If you didn't know, surge was nerfed quite a bit. There is no point in stacking it past 250-300, as severe diminishing returns kick in. If you take the time to look at the the scaling of all Tactics abilities, you'll realize that there is no way for you to reach 5k crits on any ability against someone in PvP gear.

[Xevron]

So, when you said that you've crit for 5k, you were actually just lying about it.

 

I never said I did. Anywhere. Reading comprehension.

 

I proposed that other people with better gear who've been DPS for a long enough time to fully Rakata mod full BM DPS set gear might be able to, but the flavor of Vanguard DPS is Assault and the lack of Tactics players doesn't help us find true potentials of the red-headed step-child of specs. Already the 'MORTAR DOESNT GO ABOVE 3K!' myth has been broken. There's more to be learned if you pull your head out of your arse and do the testing.

[Xevron]

The reason I say Tactics is possible to get a 5k crit is our highest hitting talent, Fire Pulse (probably been calling it Flame Shock because I'm dumb) is elemental. Therefor it's not mitigated by anything but inherent elemental resists which are usually 10%. AP gets 30% bonus damage from talents on crits, but so does Fire Pulse. AP and HIB are both subject to armor mitigation(though it has armor pen talents) and HIB is also subject to shielding. Fire Pulse cuts through everything but that 10% and with the 6% from talents, 8% from talented High Energy Cell, and the 30% crit modifier from talents you're essentially looking at a fully talented HIB on a burning target, but no chance to shield.

[Myxam]

Tactics lacks... really anything that makes it special. of course the Internal and Elemental damage is great, but it does lack that certain meat that makes a tree what it is. Having played it a little, it is -certainly- really fun. But its reliance on the base abilities make it feel like playing Shield Spec with a bowie knife in my hand.

 

Viability really is no issue, it strangely has a large amount of critical results, but the Nerf to Surge in the last patch... really hurt Tactics. I've not seen endgame Tactics firsthand, but now it feels disgusting to play it at 39.

 

Assault has the all the toys that Tactics has, excluding Hold the Line, and doesn't require you to stick to someone like glue.

 

I lament for anyone else who enjoyed Tactics, it may well be dead.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Myxam