Chapter One: OF COURSE it's the Endgame!

[Samy_Merchi]

Not at all! We're just going to put those hours at 50, where you spend most of your time.

I don't get it. If you're going to keep progressing at 50 anyway, why not extend the leveling process to that part of the game, so that you can keep dinging too and have that extra satisfaction?

 

It seems kind of dull to take away the dinging and pretend that progressing is still as much fun.

 

Your character doesn't stop progressing at level 50. Leveling is just replaced with gear progression. You could keep playing a max level character... if it didn't bore you to death.

Well, considering that I don't think the class story continues at 50 (I may be wrong about that since I haven't reached that yet) I think it would bore me to death. What's the point of playing if the story isn't continuing?

[Jumajin]

I don't get it. If you're going to keep progressing at 50 anyway, why not extend the leveling process to that part of the game, so that you can keep dinging too and have that extra satisfaction?

 

It seems kind of dull to take away the dinging and pretend that progressing is still as much fun.

 

Well, considering that I don't think the class story continues at 50 (I may be wrong about that since I haven't reached that yet) I think it would bore me to death. What's the point of playing if the story isn't continuing?

 

Once you play your class quest to 50, the story is done.

 

What you get then is the mind-numbing level 50 daily quest/PvP grind, or reroll an Alt. I'm usually an Alt-aholic, but I have zero desire to play through all the planetary quests again. Unfortunately, they would be the bulk of leveling an Alt, not the new class quest.

 

First MMO I have played in a long time where I am completely uninspired to create an Alt. Not unless I am prepared to break my "no spacebar" rule for every quest that isn't the new-class quests.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jumajin

[JustTed]

I don't get it. If you're going to keep progressing at 50 anyway, why not extend the leveling process to that part of the game, so that you can keep dinging too and have that extra satisfaction?

 

Now I don't get it. Infinite levels? How would that work? things scale to infinity? It's not workable. Leveling, as it's handled right now, has to end eventually, or at least be suspended for long periods of time (in between expansions).

 

We're going to have to make repetitive content. The question is where should it go? Should we pack it in the level 30 - 40 part? You're just going to level past it and have it become obsolete. Think of the waste of art and code.

 

It seems kind of dull to take away the dinging and pretend that progressing is still as much fun.

 

I think you should try progressing at 50. It sounds to me like you haven't done it much. The satisfaction of upgrading a gear slot over from Prototype to Artifact is as satisfying as a new level, at least for me.

 

Well, considering that I don't think the class story continues at 50 (I may be wrong about that since I haven't reached that yet) I think it would bore me to death. What's the point of playing if the story isn't continuing?

 

You can finish your class chain as early as 48, and perhaps earlier.

 

Who said the story has to end?

 

The instances at 50 all have story elements, as do the daily quests and PvP stuff. It just needs, oh, about 1200% more of it. Currently, it all went into the parts we abandon.

 

In a certain sense, I agree with you. 1 - 50 is more fun. But that's also the problem.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JustTed

[Rhila]

Overall I think we all need to keep in mind that this game is very much in it's infancy as far as actual release goes.

 

3 months is less than a blip on a gamers radar.

 

Give it time before you heave-ho and see if end-game improves as more people hit it and forces the devs to give 50's more options.

[Samy_Merchi]

Now I don't get it. Infinite levels? How would that work? things scale to infinity? It's not workable. Leveling, as it's handled right now, has to end eventually, or at least be suspended for long periods of time (in between expansions).

Not necessarily infinite, but whatever finite amount corresponds to the desired level of this "gear progression" thingee. I mean, I'm not an expert in gear progression but I'd *assume* it can't progress infinitely either. You don't end up with a sword +1000000 after a zillion hours of playtime but it caps out at some point I'd assume. So just match up levelling to that so that the two end in sync.

 

We're going to have to make repetitive content.

That comes off like a red warning light right off the bat to me. There's no way repetitive content can be of the same quality as hand-crafted content. I can't imagine any sort of repetitive content would keep my interest the same way as interacting with Darth Baras, Vette and such. As dull as re-doing all the planets all over might be, it's *got* to be better than just hamster wheeling in place with no story progression. Edited February 10, 2012 by Samy_Merchi

[JustTed]

Overall I think we all need to keep in mind that this game is very much in it's infancy as far as actual release goes.

 

Agreed. I'm trying to make Boiware think about the expansion, which is a better place for sweeping design changes anyway. I'd hate for them to give us levels 51 - 60, pack all the content in there, and neglect the endgame again.

 

The game also needs to be a lot better at introducing new players. This one they should probably get started on yesterday.

[JustTed]

That comes off like a red warning light right off the bat to me. There's no way repetitive content can be of the same quality as hand-crafted content

 

Agreed, but I'm still not following you.

 

They can't give us the equivalent of the leveling content that stretches into infinity. This is like trying to lay the train tracks down in front of an already moving train. The players are always going to consume content faster than you can make it.

 

Gear, however, can scale forever, because it's all just numbers. It may seem silly to, say, have a million health points, but it's not very different than 10,000 when it's abstracted out to a bar. At the end of the day, you care about a percentage.

 

They use this trick already to put levels 1 - 49 all in the same PvP game.

Edited February 10, 2012 by JustTed

[Samy_Merchi]

They can't give us the equivalent of the leveling content that stretches into infinity.

Two different aspects:

 

* levelling: yes. Like you said, it's all just numbers. Theoretically you could have the xp required for a new level always follow some progression. If gear can continue progressing to a million because it's just numbers, then so can level. Just make some formula to calculate the new level required xp infinitely.

 

* story: no. You're right, they can't give infinite amounts of story content. Which is why it's self-evident to me that the character's story must end at some point and an alt must be rolled at some point. This is why I don't understand why continue with the same character when it's clear that the story content cannot progress infinitely.

[Quantum_Icecube]

Two different aspects:

 

* levelling: yes. Like you said, it's all just numbers. Theoretically you could have the xp required for a new level always follow some progression. If gear can continue progressing to a million because it's just numbers, then so can level. Just make some formula to calculate the new level required xp infinitely.

 

* story: no. You're right, they can't give infinite amounts of story content. Which is why it's self-evident to me that the character's story must end at some point and an alt must be rolled at some point. This is why I don't understand why continue with the same character when it's clear that the story content cannot progress infinitely.

 

Can't it? There's lots of radical ways you could keep the character story going. Remember, everyone's character's story exists in a self-contained bubble where nobody else's story matters. In that sense, it requires a big suspension of disbelief--the upside is that you could go on to be the damned emperor and it still wouldn't really impact PvP, end-game Raiding, or group play in general. I look forward to seeing what happens in the future with more content patches and expansions.

 

Overall, I agree with the OP though. There's some MMO (and, to a lesser extent, RPG) conventions that just need to go away for the good of all. Bioware said they wanted to keep this a relatively traditional kind of MMO, but really its not. There's a lot of ways this could splinter off into the realm of true innovation, but we'll see.

[JustTed]

Two different aspects:

 

* levelling: yes. Like you said, it's all just numbers. Theoretically you could have the xp required for a new level always follow some progression. If gear can continue progressing to a million because it's just numbers, then so can level. Just make some formula to calculate the new level required xp infinitely.

 

And the environment to go with it? You know, the place where all the quests and mobs you can level off of are?

 

Repetitive content has to come in somewhere. The alternative is infinite content, and we can't make that.

 

* story: no. You're right, they can't give infinite amounts of story content. Which is why it's self-evident to me that the character's story must end at some point and an alt must be rolled at some point. This is why I don't understand why continue with the same character when it's clear that the story content cannot progress infinitely.

 

Because it's a game?

 

Sorry, we may just part ways on this particular point. We can't have infinite story or content. What are we here for? It must be to play something, no? If it's just to experience a story and then abandon the game once it's done, well, I suppose there's nothing wrong with that. But that's really the opposite on an MMO, which is about a persistent world that just keeps going long after you and I log off. A persistent world to play in.

 

Your game is just gonna end. I'd like mine to last a while. That's kinda the point of this genre.

[JustTed]

Overall, I agree with the OP though. There's some MMO (and, to a lesser extent, RPG) conventions that just need to go away for the good of all. Bioware said they wanted to keep this a relatively traditional kind of MMO, but really its not. There's a lot of ways this could splinter off into the realm of true innovation, but we'll see.

 

I think the ship has sailed on making this a radically different kind of MMO, and that's fine. I'm not out to reinvent the wheel... here.

 

I'd just like to see the bulk of design, development, art, and all that lovely voice acting, go into the endgame where most of us are going to do most of our playing.

[Khrag]

Personally I think the current paradigm of 0-max level then repeat top level content over and over is done. It needs something new. Unfortunately what that "something" is I have no idea.

 

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but I know what I mean.

 

In the beginning that was what SWG was. It was skill leveling, not character leveling. Or a great game that does have a sort of leveling is Skyrim (insert random arrow to the knee joke here)

 

Leveling games end up wasting a huge amount of resources and therefore money of the game designers. Once you get to 50, how much time are you going to spend on Nar Shadda, Korriban, or Drummond Kaas? It's the same thing in WoW and Rift and all the others. Once the game matures a bit, all the earkier areas are empty, yet they still need to have the computing power to have them running. Get rid of levels, make your skills grow instead and suddenly hunting anywhere at anytime is fun.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Khrag

[JeremyDale]

In the beginning that was what SWG was. It was skill leveling, not character leveling. Or a great game that does have a sort of leveling is Skyrim (insert random arrow to the knee joke here)

 

Leveling games end up wasting a huge amount of resources and therefore money of the game designers. Once you get to 50, how much time are you going to spend on Nar Shadda, Korriban, or Drummond Kaas? It's the same thing in WoW and Rift and all the others. Once the game matures a bit, all the earkier areas are empty, yet they still need to have the computing power to have them running. Get rid of levels, make your skills grow instead and suddenly hunting anywhere at anytime is fun.

 

This is a problem I ran into when I was creating my own RPG awhile back. The way I dealt with it was I made the monsters level up with the player - and it worked out really good and made the game a lot more fun.

[Ogbar]

I agree 100% with everything you've said, and in addition must throw in another thing that they utterly failed at.

 

Many guilds use a master looting system to help ensure the gear that drops goes to the person it's the biggest upgrade for, and in turn will help the raid out the most. However the master loot system is broken for the most part due to the lack of any /roll command. While some people might have a good guild to run with where people are able to tell the difference between whats a tank piece vs whats a dps piece, many do not with the result being gear goes to people who a) don't really need it or b) goes to someone who already has it because of the game automatically designates pieces to certain players. This is a crippling aspect of the game and a glaring blemish on amount of thought they really put in to end-game raid mechanics. Why would the game automatically give the Columi/Rakata token to someone who already has it instead of allowing the guild or raid leader the opportunity to allow the people who need it to roll on it?

 

This is really something that needs to be addressed and I am aware there are other threads about it. Since there is already a RNG in game, you would think it wouldn't be too much effort to just add a player command to access it any time.

 

Just my two cents, and again, well said JustTed!

[Samy_Merchi]

And the environment to go with it? You know, the place where all the quests and mobs you can level off of are?

Same environment as where the grinding for infinite gear is done. If you have an environment to grind infinite gear, you have an environment for grinding infinite xp too.

 

We can't have infinite story or content. What are we here for? It must be to play something, no? If it's just to experience a story and then abandon the game once it's done, well, I suppose there's nothing wrong with that.

I've never played an RPG, tabletop or computer, where I had the illusion that my character was going to keep going forever and ever and ever like an Energizer Bunny. From my earliest RPG experiences with tabletop D&D to this day, there has always been the assumption that eventually the character would become too godlike to be challenged anymore, and then we'd start new characters.

 

I really don't see what's wrong with that model.

 

Your game is just gonna end. I'd like mine to last a while. That's kinda the point of this genre.

I thought the point of this genre was to play and have fun with other players online, not to be bored at cap with other players online. While levelling, the former occurs. At cap, the latter occurs.

[Altyrell]

Indeed, the issue is that leveling by playing new content is replaced by doing the same 3 warzones and 2 operations over and over again until the next major patch.

 

This isn't good because within a few months, most of a player's time will be spent at max level.

 

Yeah, but even if they added a few more Warzones and Operations then eventually instead of people doing 3 WZs and 2 Ops it will be people doing # WZs and # Ops.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Artthen
edited out quote of removed post

[Artthen]

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Edited February 10, 2012 by Artthen

[SirSlayAlot]

TLDR - Once you hit 50 things get boring fast Edited February 10, 2012 by SirSlayAlot

[SirSlayAlot]

Hello everyone!

Thanks for your cooperation!

 

Not saying anything otherwise I'll just cop more of those parking tickets handed out like free samples

Edited February 10, 2012 by SirSlayAlot

[JeremyDale]

TLDR - Once you hit 50 things get boring fast

 

yep, sadly it does

[SirSlayAlot]

yep, sadly it does

 

Ya, my only regret in this game is.... I subbed for 6 months and not 6 days

[Silversable]

Sorry, we may just part ways on this particular point. We can't have infinite story or content.

I beg to disagree here. You *can* have infinite story or content - you just have to consume it slowly enough.

 

As a matter of fact, content is consumed too fast because of three factors :

- single-purpose game objectives, which tend to funnel players on a single path of character progression and favor "forced march", singleminded behaviour (combat lemmings).

- lack of depth in both world detail and character development.

- objective, long-range, 20/20 perception and accurate directions.

 

the fact that many people play a single game far too much (as opposed to splitting that time among a dozen different games) does not help either, but that's just compounding the problem.

 

Simply put, MMORPGs are extremely shallow games. Worlds are built for convenience, not for immersion. Characters are built for single-purpose progression (combat efficiency). If the gaming environment is simplified so much that you can basically go on autopilot because you do not have to sort out options, choices, and personal progression priorities, it's no wonder that people consume whatever is available too fast - and it's also no wonder that people think it is so repetitive and boring.

 

There's simply not enough world left in MMO games to sustain interest.

[Lasica]

TLDR - Once you hit 50 things get boring fast

 

Exactly, and this is why I cancelled my subscription today.

 

I'm a healer yet I find it impossible to get a group for any of the group content on my server, so I'm reduced to doing PvP, running a few daily quests and redoing the space missions, which is pretty bloody boring after the first couple of times.

 

I already have a full set of champion PvP gear, I could I guess push those extra few valour levels to battlemaster but what then, another gear grind in the same 3 warzones and the fail that is Ilum. Nothing to look forward to there.

 

There is nothing to explore at 50, just a short couple of quests you can do on Ilum and Belsavis.

 

When will developers learn that the only content that really matters is endgame and focus on making a game that gives everyone something to do at max level... well I guess The Secret World might do that so that's a hope for the future, but SWTOR isn't going to last long unfortunately.

 

I'll use the remaining time on my subscription to play an empire alt and hopefully find that better, but don't expect anything different at 50.

[Pravis]

If leveling isn't engaging you won't stick around for the endgame, and the endgame doesn't need to be 100% complete at launch like leveling does.

 

So far leveling is not only fun but i actually want to go through it again multiple times with various classes, and I say that as someone who never read any quest text in any mmo or leveled any alt.

 

Leveling also does teach you to play. The variety of mobs (weak to champ), and numbers in pulls become more difficult as you level up. When you get interrupts and crowd control you are told "hey you got an interrupt....this is when you should use it" and you know actual encounters start popping up where you do. 2+ and 4 heroic areas are in every planet, even the starting ones, teaching you the basics of teamwork. And then they even introduce flashpoints at appropriate level, encouraging you to group for these. Or you can take companions and 2-3 man it which is easy to do.

 

The game might have some issues like lackluster crew skills, they are at least addressing it rather timely compared to other mmos.

[Morthis]

The game was crafted largely as a “Knights of the Old Republic” game. Yeah, it’s an MMO. I’m not saying it’s not. I’m saying it’s not enough of one. Too much went into 1-49, which we can almost call “the single player portion.” Meanwhile, game designers really need to wake up. Leveling is a relic from Dungeons and Dragons that works fine when six guys all agree to meet at the same table once a week. In 2012 and on the internet, it’s a relic that's holding us back. We do need a tutorial period to learn a game of this complexity, but that’s not the game. It’s how we learn our characters and how to play them. The bulk of the game is ahead, or should be.

 

Leveling already plays an important tutorial role. How many abilities do you have? Odds are, it's something like 30+. How many do you have at level 1? I believe it's 5. By slowly gaining new abilities as you level, you not only get to experience the first kind of character progression (unlocking abilities as you play), but it also means the abilities are introduced to you at a slow pace so you have time to try each of them. By the time the next ability rolls around, you're already familiar with the previous one, and you know how well it performs. You can now compare this to your new ability and decide which one you prefer, or in which order you prefer to use them. Without this kind of pacing, logging in with a ton of abilities would be very overwhelming, and comparing them all with each other would feel like a very boring ordeal.