in defense of the prequels

[RagnarokJC]

TLDR: If you nitpick any good movie, it will sound like an incoherent piece of crud, so stop it an enjoy the movie for what it is.

TLDR Translation: If you use critical thinking skills on bad movies, you will not enjoy them. Turn your brain off and enjoy the bad movie.

 

Sorry, but some of us don't choose to turn our brains off to enjoy a film.

[TheLonelyTusken]

TLDR Translation: If you use critical thinking skills on bad movies, you will not enjoy them. Turn your brain off and enjoy the bad movie.

 

Sorry, but some of us don't choose to turn our brains off to enjoy a film.

 

Didn't use those critical thinking skills to read the entire thing though did ya?

[RagnarokJC]

Didn't use those critical thinking skills to read the entire thing though did ya?

I did actually read through that jumbled mess you call a previous post before responding. My last post summed up what you're talking about quite aptly.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think you've learned enough yet to apply critical thinking. I'm willing to bet that in 5 years or so, assuming that you have learned enough, you'll be asking yourself how you ever liked the PT films to begin with.

[Seisaan]

I did actually read through that jumbled mess you call a previous post before responding. My last post summed up what you're talking about quite aptly.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think you've learned enough yet to apply critical thinking. I'm willing to bet that in 5 years or so, assuming that you have learned enough, you'll be asking yourself how you ever liked the PT films to begin with.

 

Thing is, yes the plot for a movie can be bad, buts its the entertainment value that lets people overlook that. Phantom Menace has good themes and ideas going for it, but the poor execution, poor directing, poor writing, and bland acting make these flaws more obvious. I mean, look at the LotR movies. Sauron is never given an actual motivation besides he's just evil and the romance scenes between Aragorn and Arwyn(sp?) can be way too drawn out, but most people are willing to overlook that because everything else is so generally well done. Really, the only thing the prequels did well was the CGI, but Eye Candy: The Trilogy does not make for good movies.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Seisaan

[RagnarokJC]

Thing is, yes the plot for a movie can be bad, buts its the entertainment value that lets people overlook that. Phantom Menace has good themes and ideas going for it, but the poor execution, poor directing, poor writing, and bland acting make these flaws more obvious. I mean, look at the LotR movies. Sauron is never given an actual motivation besides he's just evil and the romance scenes between Aragorn and Arwyn(sp?) can be way too drawn out, but most people are willing to overlook that because everything else is so generally well done. Really, the only thing the prequels did well was the CGI, but Eye Candy: The Trilogy does not make for good movies.

Sauron has the motivation of dominating all life in Middle Earth through the power of the One Ring. Yes, he in fact was given an motivation that was explained quite well in the opening monologue of FoTR (first film).

 

Your argument seems to be contradicting itself: you start off by mentioning entertainment value as a way for people to overlook flaws, but then end by saying that eye candy doesn't make a good film automatically. It sounds like you agree with me.

[Wusword]

But WHY would they have battle droids? There's no conflict, hell that's why the Republic needs the Clone Armies, they dont have a standing army. If the Republic didn't have an army, why would they let a Trade Federation mass produce battle droids and war ships?

 

There is no galactic conflict, that doesn't mean there is no conflict in the galaxy. I can think of plenty of reasons for the manufacture of battle capable droids, along with plenty of people who might purchase them.

 

And yes, we should see the effects. Look to the second timeline video Bioware released. When the Mandalorians blockaded a trade route, you saw images of riots and the narrator spoke of the desperate situation; that the senate was willing to surrender right then and there as a result of the blockade and the riots. Why couldnt we see that on Naboo? It would have given much more importance to the whole scenario and led to further character development for Amidala as she had to make a choice to sign the treaty or continue to let her people suffer. It is an image we never see that would have greatly increased the audience's emotional involvement and understanding of the situation. Yes, Amildala says her people suffer, but, showing something carries far more weight than telling about it.

 

I agree showing them suffering lends more weight to the problem, but I feel the need to point out that your video example is flawed. The Mandalorian Blockade blocked ALL of the core worlds of ALL raw materials, including food. One would think a planet would be inclined to riot if they are getting no food, but they may not be rioting if the blockade only prevents the import of the Star Wars equivalent of an iPad 2 and Droid Razors. Naboo is a fertile planet so food may not be a problem, but industry would suffer if they can't trade off world, leading the "riots" to be nothing but grumpy people sitting at home that they have nothing to do.

 

And yes, the blockade was just to start the conflict, but what was the motivation for Gunray and his Federation? Why would they risk everything for this Sith Lord? What did he promise them? What was in it for Gunray? These are things that are needed for the audience to care about the conflict.

 

They are doing it to protest taxes on trade routes, as said in the beginning of the film. Sidious could have convinced them that doing this to Naboo would help their position.

 

And from Phantom Menace there would be 3 planets. Look at Tattooine and Coruscant. Both seem lively as there are people walking around or entire traffic lanes of speeders constantly in just about every shot. You cant call Mos Eisley underpopulated when there are people constantly in just about every shot. What about Theed? You never see any civilians. In Cloud City you see people getting evacuated once Lando gives the order and even before then you saw at least SOME people walking around.

 

We generally only see the palace around Theed, where the general population may not be allowed. When we are in the main parts of the city it's either for a battle, or the parade at the end (and the parade is packed with people).

 

I never said I want to know why the Trade Federation exists, I wanted to know their motivation for starting everything. The Empire controls the galaxy and then a group of rebels rises up to oppose them so now they must defend the Galaxy and track down any rebel cells. They are a generic, evil Empire that just wants to control the Galaxy and is willing to use any means to accomplish this goal. There is nothing generic about the Trade Federation. We know why Palpatine uses them, but, again, whats in it for the Trade Federation? Why do this to begin with? They dont know he has sway over the Senate and can lift whatever space taxes pissed them off. Their motivations are never made clear.

 

So you're ok with making the assumption that the Trade Federation knows nothing about Palpatine/Sidious but not ok with assuming that Palpatine/Sidious could have shown them evidence that he has pull in the Senate?

 

Its the bare bones of politics. We dont see the senators or other political officials debating over the rebellion like we do in Phantom Menace. And there's nothing to assume, the Rebels are the good guys and the Empire are evil. There's no grey area as we never see Stormtroopers do any acts of kindness or take pity on someone and we never see a rebel soldier start gunning down captured Imperial troops. The motivation for the rebels is never initially made clear, but after the Death Star destroys Alderaan we understand why the Empire has to be stopped.

 

Thats not to say the Trade Federation didn't also commit acts of evil like blockading Naboo and invading, but the way the situation unfolded was a jumbled mess. The treaty is never outlined, nor is it stated why the Trade Federation needs the invasion legalized. Hell, if their motivation is to get the Senate to change the taxes, why invade to begin with? Just keep the planet hostage and threaten invasion unless something happens. Successfully invading accomplishes nothing for Gunray and his organization.

 

The invasion is because the Blockade is not legal, so by having the Treaty signed it would legalize the whole issue, saving them from any issues with the Republic.

 

 

The thing is, I shouldnt have to fill in gaps on my own. That is terrible story telling. Not to mention, the complexity of the motivations are vastly different. The Empire is evil and wants to control the Galaxy while the Rebels are good and want to free it. Its simplistic and doesnt require any more thought than that. The Phantom Menace brings in trade routes, taxes, politics, treaties, etc. When you add complexity to the story, the characters have to follow suit. They cant just be generic villains anymore. Lucas attempted this, but, again, failed to make everyone's motivations clear and failed to make most people even give a damn about what was going on. Not to mention adding such complexities is pointless when you are trying to market your movie for children.

 

Making your own logic jumps within a story isn't evidence of bad story telling. Bad story telling is when the writer must spell every tiny detail out for you concerning everything. While PM didn't have great story telling (or even good story telling) most of the issues within the story can be worked out if you think about them.

 

Now if PM came out first, as opposed to a New Hope, I would have a vastly different thoughts about it. As a stand alone movie (not part of a series where we know what happened) it's bad but it's not a stand alone movie.

[RagnarokJC]

Making your own logic jumps within a story isn't evidence of bad story telling. Bad story telling is when the writer must spell every tiny detail out for you concerning everything. While PM didn't have great story telling (or even good story telling) most of the issues within the story can be worked out if you think about them.

I can ignore your strawman arguments, but this particular part is the most asinine ever, and it's not the first time someone's brought it up in this forum unfortunately. If the choice is between being told too much and being told next to nothing, most people would prefer the former any day of the week. Tolkien is a great example of a writer that does this in the LoTR books, but they're still considered to be classic works of literature.

 

If a film constantly has the audience asking questions about what's going on or who characters are, it's not doing it's job, period. If a filmmaker is going to tell the public to use their imaginations when watching his movie, then the response is, "If we should be using our imaginations, why should we even bother watching your film?".

[Urushira]

t me, it all boils down to an incredible understanding of politiica science and manipulation.

 

In chapter 1, Palpatine makes his presence known through his apprentice, but stays untouchable while manipulating the trade federation with their droid armies. Theres little back story there, but there are clues that he was involved in the trade federations need to create an army.. With the manipulation of the trade federation as Darth Sidius, Palpatine created an opportunity in the senate to gain power, and took full advantage of it.

Seeing whats happening in the senate, Count Duku creates the seperatist movement and attacks the republic. I'd like to think that its not so much because of Sidius being chancellor, but more because he ( Duku ) isnt. Thus begins the clone wars..

The clone wars ends with the end of Duku and his droid armies, and only one last group needs to be eliminated. The unwitting assassins in hire to Darth Sidious: The jedi. And just think. They work almost for free.. With the jedi outlawed and nearly exterminated, Sidius move his clone armies into place and elevates himself to Emporer status. Twenty years later We have Luke Skywalker, and his Iron john psychdrama..

Star Wars was always more of a symphony of undertones and currents than anything else. And the undercurrents were always of an epic nature. The stories are individually easy to criticize, but only a narrow visioned fool would do so.. The prequels answere questions that were twenty years old. Perhaps they were a bit purile, but they were designed to be enjoyable by children, yet have a story line too them that was desernable only by adults..

Frankly, I think thay did a good jobb, even if i'm not too thrilled by some of the characters..

[Seisaan]

Sauron has the motivation of dominating all life in Middle Earth through the power of the One Ring. Yes, he in fact was given an motivation that was explained quite well in the opening monologue of FoTR (first film).

 

Your argument seems to be contradicting itself: you start off by mentioning entertainment value as a way for people to overlook flaws, but then end by saying that eye candy doesn't make a good film automatically. It sounds like you agree with me.

 

Uh, I was agreeing with you.

[RagnarokJC]

Uh, I was agreeing with you.

Well, ok then- the first part of your last post didn't sound like it, though.

[Seisaan]

So you're ok with making the assumption that the Trade Federation knows nothing about Palpatine/Sidious but not ok with assuming that Palpatine/Sidious could have shown them evidence that he has pull in the Senate?

 

Thats not an assumption. The only person who knew Palpatine= Sidious was Dooku which still means Gunray had no way of knowing Sidious had pull in the Senate. To do so would have blown Palpatine's cover which would have been too risky should Gunray start pointing fingers to save his own skin.

[Arkerus]

It doesn't really matter what the local fanboys come up with.

 

When it comes down to it the prequels made little sense, there were 100s of couch scenes, and the acting is awful.

 

Everyone except prequel fanboys agree on those above points of view.

 

The love scenes between anakin and padamememe were just...sickeningly bad.

 

Its all green screen BS and you know it.

 

Lucas lost his touch in his age. There is no way around it.

 

And yes, the opening scene in III was farking awful because it set no tone for the movie. Here's a guy who will chop you head off but goes back for one clone trooper. lol bad.

[Wusword]

Thats not an assumption. The only person who knew Palpatine= Sidious was Dooku which still means Gunray had no way of knowing Sidious had pull in the Senate. To do so would have blown Palpatine's cover which would have been too risky should Gunray start pointing fingers to save his own skin.

 

He wouldn't need to reveal that he's a senator to show he has pull in the Senate. Part of the reason Palpatine got elected was because he showed how Valorum was influenced by the "bureaucrats," which was not some big secret. Palpatine was shown to have been a master of deception and intrigue, so you think it's above him to work out a method to influence the Trade Federation to do his bidding?

[theadjectivenoun]

Michael Bay could have done better with the prequels...the whole bacteria thing just made me hate episode one and anything that mentions bacteria as the force.

 

I just hate how GL needed to prove the birth of Jesus, that it was bacteria, and in terms Jesus is a Jedi knight.

[ForswornKnight]

Honestly the only thing I didn't like about the prequels was some of the dialogue.

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." - Obi-Wan

 

Well, I guess we all have a lil' bit of Sith in us then don't we?

[Arkerus]

Michael Bay could have done better with the prequels...the whole bacteria thing just made me hate episode one and anything that mentions bacteria as the force.

 

I just hate how GL needed to prove the birth of Jesus, that it was bacteria, and in terms Jesus is a Jedi knight.

 

LOL.

 

I'm a jedi...

 

BAAAAAAYSPLOSION!!!!

 

Hey, look there's Padme.

 

 

BAAAAAAAAAAAYSPLOSION!!!!!

 

 

 

Ani, LOOK OUT!

 

 

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASPLOOOOOOOOSION!!!!

[Drasten]

I think why we don't care for the prequels comes down to what they did. If you were a big Star Wars fan, there was TONS of EU (Extended Universe) stuff like books, comics, etc that was alive and well for so long. History was there, and if you don't believe me, go pick up a copy of the original Guide to Characters book that came out before the prequels, they have since, changed and edited it. When the prequels came out, they blew all that away. Kamino didn't exist, they were Spaarti Cloning Cylinders and handled by Jorus C'Baoth. All that is wiped away now and authors are struggling to try to fit their work back into the mythos. Not too mention the technology looked like it exceeded the originals tech by YEARS. And explain away Leia from ROTJ saying, " I remember my mother, she was sad" Well, now according to the new movies, she remembers her from birth, the 1.5 seconds she might have seen her. Poor luke must have had his head turned. Add in that a Darth (Darth Maul) was bested by a padawan after he fought 2 Jedi with ease, yeah, not going to happen. Lucas was trying to move too much story, too quickly. For me, the originals will always be the true canon, not this kiddie junk that has come out, I mean... Pod-Racing... sigh...

[JeedaiFiresaber]

Add in that a Darth (Darth Maul) was bested by a padawan after he fought 2 Jedi with ease, yeah, not going to happen.

 

Actually i always though this odd. The openning crawl says 'TWO JEDI KNIGHTS' yet Obi-wan is a padawan made a Knight at the END of the film. if they both would have been Jedi Knights that would help the plausability there.

 

Or for instance say Anakin was older. and we see him have a flash of emotion which helps him destroy the droid control ship. Conversley we see Obi-wan center himself to defeat Maul. Now we've set the stage of what is to come, yet we see the fundemental differences between Obiwan and Anakin.

 

Lets not even get into 'I have the high ground' and yet..Maul had the high ground if that is true...

 

Food for thought anyway.

Edited February 11, 2012 by JeedaiFiresaber

[BrandonSM]

You guys really need to stop hating on Midi-Chlorians. First Learn What they are.

 

 

Their represenatives of one's potential in the Force.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

You guys really need to stop hating on Midi-Chlorians. First Learn What they are.

 

 

Their represenatives of one's potential in the Force.

 

its still something that was better left unexplained. Because with this theory you would be able to tell how powerful anybody is, and what their maximum potential is and they can never grow 'stronger in the force'. It just came off as completely contradictory to what was stated about the force previously.

 

its just like his need to always change things in the original trilogy. if it's not broke don't try and fix it.

Edited February 11, 2012 by JeedaiFiresaber

[Shaddaq]

Hello,

 

My biggest problem with the Prequels was in the first Prequel movie. I will not belabor Jar jar binks except to say that I did not enjoy his character.

 

1) Child actor playing Anakin was not enjoyable to watch. Scenes with him felt leaden.

 

2) Jedi allowing a young Child to participate in deadly race for their benefit felt irresponsible. One of the Jedi should have performed the race, if we wish to believe that Jedi are wise and responsible adults.

 

3) Child 'accidentally' launching his fighter and destroying orbiting station is an unsatisfying comedic development amidst scenes of otherwise escalating tension.

 

4) Darth Maul suddenly becomes a rather poor fighter with slow reflexes just so Obi-Wan can defeat him in the final moments of their battle. This was quite a let-down. It made me feel the fight choreographer couldn't come up with a convincing solution for Obi Wan to win the fight, or perhaps he wasn't given enough leeway in planning the fight more believably. Either way, an anticlimactic end to an interesting battle. This final inexplicable blow also served to rob the villain of much of his 'cool factor.'

Edited February 11, 2012 by Shaddaq

[Intarabus]

I think why we don't care for the prequels comes down to what they did. If you were a big Star Wars fan, there was TONS of EU (Extended Universe) stuff like books, comics, etc that was alive and well for so long. History was there, and if you don't believe me, go pick up a copy of the original Guide to Characters book that came out before the prequels, they have since, changed and edited it. When the prequels came out, they blew all that away. Kamino didn't exist, they were Spaarti Cloning Cylinders and handled by Jorus C'Baoth. All that is wiped away now and authors are struggling to try to fit their work back into the mythos. Not too mention the technology looked like it exceeded the originals tech by YEARS. And explain away Leia from ROTJ saying, " I remember my mother, she was sad" Well, now according to the new movies, she remembers her from birth, the 1.5 seconds she might have seen her. Poor luke must have had his head turned. Add in that a Darth (Darth Maul) was bested by a padawan after he fought 2 Jedi with ease, yeah, not going to happen. Lucas was trying to move too much story, too quickly. For me, the originals will always be the true canon, not this kiddie junk that has come out, I mean... Pod-Racing... sigh...

 

But I think the prequels had pretty good EU-Stuff also in tow, like the Quinlan Vos-comics.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

2) Jedi allowing a young Child to participate in deadly race for their benefit felt irresponsible. One of the Jedi should have performed the race, if we wish to believe that Jedi are wise and responsible adults.

 

If you actually pay attention Qui-gon makes alot of really unwise decisions like that. As much as I liked him and Liam playing him.... alot of things he does are 'because the plot demands the action scenes be in this order and at these locations'

[BrandonSM]

If you actually pay attention Qui-gon makes alot of really unwise decisions like that. As much as I liked him and Liam playing him.... alot of things he does are 'because the plot demands the action scenes be in this order and at these locations'

 

That is incorrect. Qui-Gon is a gray Jedi and believes whatever is necessary to achieve a goal he'll do it. There was a reason why He wasn't on the council.

[Shaddaq]

That is incorrect. Qui-Gon is a gray Jedi and believes whatever is necessary to achieve a goal he'll do it. There was a reason why He wasn't on the council.

 

Hello,

 

Allowing a child to run a death race is unwise, even if the only desire is to achieve a goal. The best information suggested the child was unsuitable to the task. So even if we are to believe QuiGonn enjoys endangering young children for his own benefit, allowing the child to run the death race is a hard decision to justify.