golfwang Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Edit: I'll be updating this thread with my 1.2 impressions. It's only fair. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think "lol PvE > PvP", I'm not talking about you. If you're an admittedly casual player who only "dabbles" in pvp, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people who, at cap, are playing a MMO for the pvp content. I can't help but feel, after reading these forums and talking to people from various pvp guilds on my server that it's pretty much already a wash for PvP in this game. The common sentiments from those conversations? -A Loss of faith in the PvP team for issues ranging from clunky combat, Ilum being lame/buggy, gear RNG, etc...really, it's all been covered extensively on these forums before. What I'm more concerned with is what will the repercussions of this arguably abysmal pvp development be going forward and is it "correctable"? I think the most obvious answer is: competition releases before Gabe and his team are able to address the lion's share of problems with pvp and it's utter lack of content. I think we're looking at TERA and GW2 siphoning most, if not all of the pvp base away from ToR and a chunk from WoW. There's no telling how large a drop in subs ToR will experience after these games release but I do believe it'll be very noticeable. People have been complaining about empty feeling servers and faction imbalance now...but just wait until ToR has new, legit competition. Some servers will be utter ghost towns. I think server mergers are imminent. PvP forum activity will die down too, probably drastically. The people who so passionately cared about Star Wars and MMO pvp will probably be gone...because SWTOR can't live off it's IP forever. It needs to deliver something interesting and original...which brings me to my next point. There is nothing innovative about ToR besides it's extensive V.O. and class stories. These all end at cap though, so ToR loses its greatest strength once players hit 50. After that it's pretty much a WoW clone done poorly. I don't mean to sell the leveling experience short by any means, it's the best of any MMO I've played...but it's obvious too much time and money went into quests many players are just space baring through (besides class quests) and not enough of polished, well developed endgame content (both pvp and pve-wise). Also, the game engine is kind of horrible. I doubt we'll ever see largscale, non lagfest pvp. It's gotten better but I doubt it'll improve by much. Very poor engine choice. I already know the contraian arguments to a lot of my points. "WoW released with far less at launch!" "PvP is a mini-game in ToR!" But those are easy to refute. ToR released late 2011, not 2004. The standards are higher and the MMO climate is very different. The second point is often presented by PvE players who could care less about PvP but let me assure you: That is not the official stance Gabe and his PvP are taking. If they were to publicly say that, they'd lose subs in droves. It may be so internally for whatever reason, but publicly pvp is as much as a priority as pve. I mean...not really. But they have to say that kind of stuff and consider that audience. Personally speaking, I think too much of the design in ToR compromises any hope that PvP will seriously improve or that is was ever a serious consideration in development. Why? -Three warzones at release compared to how many flashpoints, endgame ops and fully voiced class/sidequests. -Design intentionally detrimental to world pvp. Factions are split horribly when they finally meet on Tatooine and only meet with any kind of regularity on Voss (in my experience). On top of that, flash points are located in each factions respective fleet instead of inside the game world(s), making empty planets feel that much emptier...I won't even take Ilum to task. For the few dedicated PvPers I know still subscribed the March patch is make or break, do or die for their re-subscriptions. Unfortunately the only pvp content we know of is an unrevealed Warzone (I don't have any faith that it'll be awesome at this point). Maybe Ranked WZs Maybe another tier of gear. Maybe a better gearing system. Maybe a less crappy Ilum. Compare all those maybes to the PvE content being released and...well yea. I know the general argument: PvPers are a niche crowd and casual PvE players are where the $$ is at. I'm not denying that...but there is definitely a massive audience that enjoys pvp thanks in large part to World of Warcraft and the pvpers it's ranked arena system spawned. That base (and it's money) is ripe for the taking...but it feels like the PvP team has gone out of it's way to say: "No PvPers, we really don't give a **** about your preferred play-style or making quality content for you. You're secondary." Well...I get the feeling none of us will have a problem moving on to GW2, WoW's expac or TERA when they release...but I'll always be a little disappointed at what coulda been, because at the end of the day I'm a huge Star Wars fan...and I know a lot of my fellow pvpers are too. I just feel like the base has already been lost and sub hemorrhage is coming. Not to say this game won't be sucessful without the pvp base...it's just a shame it's looking like thats how things are going to play out with the pvp crowd. TL;DR: ToR finna flop for pvp nerds. Edited February 20, 2012 by golfwang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakmonster Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I didn't roll on a PvP server (I should have, I know), but I agree with the 'empty planet' vibe. Using the fleet as the gateway to the flashpoints was a pretty poor design decision. (Back in BC, I once had an entire raid night turn into open world PvP because we saw a flagged Alliance dude at the meeting stone. Raid Leader was pissed.) I think the gear RNG issue has been addressed, in the large part and they're steadily fixing the ability lag/clunky combat issues. For the most part, I find the PvP to be pretty fast-paced and responsive, but I was not a DAoC or GW player, so I won't be able to compare. Other than that, they seriously need to fix open world PvP. The warzones are alright, but nothing original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennobai Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) As a high rated Gladiator player from WoW, I must say that my partner who I've rolled with on this game has already semi-quit. I'm still here only because of RL mates and the fact that my sub is active until 22.04. edit The guy above me who mentioned Burning Crusade.. that was the best game ( or well, xpack ) I have ever played, outside of old DOS/Win95 platformers. I honestly don't think anything can or will ever be compareable to the progression and the fun that TBC offered. Ranging from Kara, to Gruul; from SSC to MH; from BT to Sunwell, from S1 to S4, I don't remember a single time I was actually bored during TBC. Edited February 9, 2012 by Kennobai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokra Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 great post, and i agree with you. this game had great potential for a cosmic good vs evil fight that could have taken place between players, instead of between players and voice actors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 not yet ....but soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidSpectre Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question. The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions. What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokra Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question. The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions. What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game" you should read his post before you present your faulty conclusions and anecdotal evidence to support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liudom Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Excellent post, nailed it mate. I hear all the time the old classic "Its only launch, give it time", thats a stupid argument to throw in... it is 2012!. You'd expect to see a balance in PVE and PVP by this age. 3 Warzones (mostly on hutt-ball) Where is the option to actually pick a warzone to play in? What is up with disbanding a group on joining a warzone and once finished, have to regroup back up again? I regret re-subbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverspar Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 you should read his post before you present your faulty conclusions and anecdotal evidence to support them. Why? It's pretty spot on analysis. Like over on the WoW forums, it's just another person declaring doom and gloom. People have been saying that for a long time, and will for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liudom Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The OP is expressing his feelings about the PVP. This is a forum to discuss.... Don't post if your not interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidSpectre Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Why? It's pretty spot on analysis. Like over on the WoW forums, it's just another person declaring doom and gloom. People have been saying that for a long time, and will for years to come. yep. went over and read it and it's exactly like I thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennobai Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question. The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions. What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game" The thing is.. I was a fanboy during the first month of the game. After dinging 50, I was still a fanboy, who wore pink tinted glasses. But for past 2-3 weeks, I really see no point anymore when it comes to PvP in this game. I'm missing 30k valor for Battlemaster, and what exactly happens after I finish the Battlemaster gear grind ? I don't want to fight lesser geared players and "own/pwn" them. I left that kind of mentality back in Vanilla WoW ( when I was oneshotting people with Soulfire with my mix of t2.5/t3 gear ). I also don't have any "normal" place to world PvP in ( Ilum is a fluke, and why have they decided to have entire game content available from fleet is beyond me, it would've been better if they forced people to go to Belsavis/Quesh on foot to enter Ops instances, making camping entrances potent for PvP ). I have nothing even remotely comparable to arena. Basically, I'll finish my Battlemaster gear grind, and be forced to level an alt, if I further want to continue playing this game. Note that I'm not alone in my opinion. I'm not a "hater", I'm just confused. GW2 is focusing almost completely on PvP, with little to no gear dependency. In WoW, you grind gear so you are able to compete with other geared players. You grind gear here so you can be the local bully and ravage through lesser geared players in warzones. If this game doesn't change until summer, well, I don't think that anyone will wear pink tinted glasses anymore. Bioware is just lucky that there's people like me who can actually wait for changes. Edited February 9, 2012 by Kennobai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfwang Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Why? It's pretty spot on analysis. Like over on the WoW forums, it's just another person declaring doom and gloom. People have been saying that for a long time, and will for years to come. There's a difference between just declaring doom and gloom and giving well thought out criticism. I tried to do the latter and it logically led to doom and gloom for the pvp base. I think ToR is a fantastic PvE/RP experience though. It'll easily live off those subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I didn't read your entire thread but I'm sure it's a long roundabout way to bash this game while asking your question. The answer is no. There are many active PVPers and my server is constantly popping in Ilum and warzones on both factions. What you see(my guess is you included) is the whiners. The crybabies that didn't get the game they imagined so they run to the forums to cry to try and dissuade the people that do like it from playing out of some bitter feeling of letdown of their imagination of the "perfect pvp game" Man dont know in what game you are playing.... but my guild comes online does daillys in 2 hours and then play other games..... We are trying to get some pvp events to spice things up but most are already fed up with the lame lag.... Dunno if they are doing something about it but its a fact that the player base will shrink significantly in the next months and after the subscriptions end..... The same thing we see here most of us have seen it elsewhere as well this is not our first mmo. Dont take this as a whine .... With great expectation comes great dissapointment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordredz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 gg fanboi Cause reading r hard? ignorant kids are ignorant, move along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There's a difference between just declaring doom and gloom and giving well thought out criticism. I tried to do the latter and it logically led to doom and gloom for the pvp base. I think ToR is a fantastic PvE/RP experience though. It'll easily live off those subs. I feel not i have been doing hard modes and operations..... its damn too easy... a well organized PVE guild should be full Rakata by now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordredz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Excellent post, nailed it mate. I hear all the time the old classic "Its only launch, give it time", thats a stupid argument to throw in... it is 2012!. You'd expect to see a balance in PVE and PVP by this age. 3 Warzones (mostly on hutt-ball) Where is the option to actually pick a warzone to play in? What is up with disbanding a group on joining a warzone and once finished, have to regroup back up again? I regret re-subbing. So everything comes out perfect? wait no, everything improves with time, EVERYTHING... Who cares who year it is, you try writing some code and be diffrent than the rest then get back at me champ, thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Cause reading r hard? ignorant kids are ignorant, move along... and a fanboi is a fanboi ...."move along" copycat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordredz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I feel not i have been doing hard modes and operations..... its damn too easy... a well organized PVE guild should be full Rakata by now.... Well grats to them? if they want to raid/grind to 50 asap, do end game, then a month later cry? they did it to them selves, move on or just stop flapping your gums... I enjoy the game, great stories, pvp is diffrent/fun, and so do another 2 million ppl... a Fist full of whiners is rather annoying but expected with every game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfwang Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 How long did it take you to write that shyte that no one will read? About 32 minutes. Thanks for the bump though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennobai Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Well grats to them? if they want to raid/grind to 50 asap, do end game, then a month later cry? they did it to them selves, move on or just stop flapping your gums... I enjoy the game, great stories, pvp is diffrent/fun, and so do another 2 million ppl... a Fist full of whiners is rather annoying but expected with every game... No offense, but a game where a "non-pro" guild finishes entire content without breaking a sweat, is a very very weird game.. Progress = time sink, it always should be. It's their fault that game is too easy, that they finished entire content and have nothing else to do ? Please. I don't think that anyone paid the money they paid for this game to go to forums and whine. I really don't hear the whines of people who cry because of nerfs/games being too hard, etc. But legitimate whining about game content ( or lack of one ), and systems that are obviously meant for casual players in mind.. that kind of whining I support. I'm doing it myself afterall. Edited February 9, 2012 by Kennobai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liudom Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 So everything comes out perfect? wait no, everything improves with time, EVERYTHING... Who cares who year it is, you try writing some code and be diffrent than the rest then get back at me champ, thanks... Maybe you misread or lack the brain power to see I never said it had to be perfect. Thanks for the lame reply, you'll get better over time when you actually read the posts before posting your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finreal Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) How long did it take you to write that shyte that no one will read? I read it. I think most people in this thread read it. How long did it take you to come up with your best troll response? There are troll courses and plenty of good trolls to learn from. I know everyone has to start trolling somewhere but you need quite a lot of help and practice before you can become entertaining. Never mind, son. Keep your chin up. Edited February 9, 2012 by Finreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverspar Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There's a difference between just declaring doom and gloom and giving well thought out criticism. I tried to do the latter and it logically led to doom and gloom for the pvp base. I think ToR is a fantastic PvE/RP experience though. It'll easily live off those subs. Spot on analysis is subjective, since 90% of the people complaining right now are the ones either upset their class was nerfed, upset that they can't be a derp and just stand and attack things and hate anything that might encourage tactical strategy, or the best one, people just upset they aren't insta killing people left and right. So really, calling it a spot on analysis. I've seen dozens of these over at the WoW forums to. And people always making claims of the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well grats to them? if they want to raid/grind to 50 asap, do end game, then a month later cry? they did it to them selves, move on or just stop flapping your gums... I enjoy the game, great stories, pvp is diffrent/fun, and so do another 2 million ppl... a Fist full of whiners is rather annoying but expected with every game... chill dude... We are all playing this game and we express our concerns... grinded to 50 to fast? are you joking ?? i know people with 3 - 4 level 50s already.... Well i guess there are players and players ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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