Don't compare TOR to WoW at launch, compare it to Rift.

[Dantragk]

Blizzard, multiple titles in a year? you sure about that? You might want to check how many titles they actually have.

 

It's been over 10 years and are now just releasing Diablo III and look at the ME and Dragon Age series, all just under 5 years in development.

 

Single player games.

 

It doesn't matter how long is in between a equal of a game. That doesn't matter. There was 7 years in between WC2 and WC3. SC2 and Cata both came out in 2010.

 

2012 we're looking at Pandaria and Diablo III.

[Enkenon]

No matter what Rift ain't got light sabers.

[kevlarto]

mine sweeper is the only game that even comes close..LOL

[Papscal]

Is there really any difference between the 3 games? I mean other than a more detailed story in tor. Any?

[Ditched]

Dumped it all on VOs so we can have our characters say the same lines over and over again by the time you hit 30+

 

"I really am the best."

 

That is so hilariously depressing to think about.

[japorms]

my personal ratings/feeling about the different mmo's.

 

wow- 8/10

tor- 8.5/10

rift- 4/10

 

the rift gameplay is just awful for me. the skill, attacks, animation is just to slow for my taste.

[Colyer]

- The antiquated and rigid UI, to me the #1 problem that affects everyone's quality of life

Rift wasn't perfect either. The raid frames were hell. Not to say that the TOR UI doesn't need work. And Rift's was customizable to an extent, which was a huge boon.

- Lack of combat log

I wouldn't call this unpolished as much as a subjectively misguided design choice. I can see the merit, but I do agree we are better with than without.

- No LFG/LFD system

Rift didn't have this at launch either.

- Ability delay (mostly fixed)

I never had this problem to be honest. Though I'm not discounting it, as I know this was a big deal for some time.

- Animation inconsistencies for abilities (Trooper mortar volley), that cause severe gameplay issues.

Grand scheme, not a big deal. Minor frustration, but could have been avoided pretty easily I think. An issue, just not a large one.

- Poor and otherwise missing guild features

Sure. I figure guilds serve their purpose without much for features, and did Rift actually have anything fancy at launch? But sure.

- Barebones auction house

Agreed. Could have been done much better. Still not bad, and Rift's auction house was quite glitchy at launch, which I haven't run into yet on TOR.

- Empty planets on high pop servers

My biggest issue with this game. Why is this not at the top? lol.

- and so on...

[Drudenfusz]

Is there really any difference between the 3 games? I mean other than a more detailed story in tor. Any?

That's not the topic (sure, there is not that big a difference there, except for this one here has the Star Wars IP). How could BioWare think not giving us all the features would be a good idea, when it obviously is not that a big deal to have all of them at launch or put them into the game soon after (like RIFT did)? Is BioWare just lazy because thinking of having the IP is enough to keep players happy?

[Nattskugga]

I quit Rift for many of the reasons I'm waning on TOR.

But to say don't compare it to WoW is silly. If anything the developers should have been comparing their own game to WoW. Then they'd have known that all the features that WoW has now need to be the entry level standard. Not what you eventually build up to.

 

I'm tired of the apologists. WoW set the benchmark to a certain level. Any developer entering the game and not even trying to get to that benchmark deserves all the scorn they get.

 

If the world high jump record is 2.45m set by someone with years of experience you can't come in all proud of your 1m jump and complain that you'll hit 2.45m when you get more experience. You knew when you entered the competition what the record was. If you weren't able to compete at that level then don't compete.

[Kuriby]

SWTOR at launch

 

Rift at launch

 

apples

 

oranges

[MJAnderson]

Don't know why the hate for either game. I like them both but SWTOR is more of a disappointment to me. Given the size of the companies and the money spent, I felt like Rift was a bit of a gem. I expected TOR to be better --- for the time and money spent it should be. I think Trion surveyed what was out there and picked up on what worked then tried to add a few unique touches (Souls, Rifts. I know Warhammer had open group quests, but Rift idea takes it much further). TOR seems to have been developed in a vacuum --- have they not noticed what works in other games? Why do they seem so surprised about people clamoring for LFG, workable crafting, a auction house that works, a flexible UI or class respecs? It's like they felt that porting DA or ME and making it online would be enough.

 

I'm baffled and that is what makes the game. If I hop in a Toyota and it has some power I'm surprised and impressed. Hop into a Porsche and I expect it to blow my socks off. TOR doesn't blow my socks off.

[Morfideath]

$50 million and 3.5 years is what Rift took to make.

 

In comparison to over 6 years and $200 million for SWTOR.

 

How Rift could release with full UI customizeability, a much more polished graphics experience, a full achievements system, a dozen fully functional dungeons, three fully-functional raids within 3 months of launch, a very practical and functional combat log, a more viable and relevant crafting system, as well as fully functional dynamic content, while TOR features none of these thing-- it just boggles the mind.

 

It is so obvious that the vast majority of the capital to make TOR went into voice acting and music, it's almost nauseating to think of what the game could have been if they'd put that money into dynamic worlds, a better game engine, and testing of end game content instead.

 

I disagree. Maybe you hate the VO, but for me its pure awesomeness. Playing the game is like watching a movie. Crafting in TOR is Ok, a bit better than the traditional gather items click click click BAM item. Music? I love the music. ToR has more than a dozen functional flashpoints, I'm sure.

ToR does fall far behind on some stuff though - Im concerned with guilds and AH the most, but, like they said, 1.2 will fix some of that.

[Karasuman]

Let me just preface this by saying that I like TOR. I think it has excellent potential. I've played Guild Wars and WoW both extensively. I played Rift from day 1 of its release, and I played it for several months. I've been playing ToR for about 2 months. The sad fact of the matter is, Rift from day 1 ran consistently better and smoother than TOR does right now, and Rift managed to run that smooth without two or three extended maintenance periods per week. Just a bit ago, I had to put my keyboard down and just log off TOR because of the lag and freezing that's been occurring all night. And that's just tonight. There's been heavy lag on plenty of other nights as well.

 

Then we have the GCD/UI, which would, up until very recently, sometimes flat-out ignore player input commands. They have worked on it the last week or so, and it has gotten better, but now they've also added that obnoxious bright blue shade effect to the GCD that doesn't need to be there. There was nothing wrong with the way the GCD looked. The only thing that needed to be fixed was the input command problem.

 

I've had companion quests break completely, such as Vette's first affection quest, which wouldn't allow me to go into the hangar bay where the quest guy was. I've had random enemies inexplicably run up and to me from several yards away and just start attacking for no reason.

 

Load times for some areas (Alderaan & Hoth come to mind) are still way too long, even on a fast machine.

 

Those are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. I will point out that I like TOR as a game more than I liked Rift. That's why I'm here, but as far as comparing how the two ran after release, Rift wins that one hands down.

 

I'm sure Bioware will fix all this stuff in due time, if they haven't already, but some of the issues TOR has (or had) should never have made it to the final cut of the game and beyond.

[Babyduck]

Sales figures are the only numbers that matter and Rift had no chance. This game is a success and is growing stronger with each new sale.

[ebenezar]

For the resources Trion had compared to Bioware I cannot help but wonder what Bioware did with all the money.

 

Agreed. I think they spent a lot of time like the BCS Football Bowl Committees on cruises and corporate trips to Vegas, Paris, London, somewhere fing expensive!

[PureHavoc]

This is one of the best articles I've read to date on these forums. I'm just going to say there are some people in a great state of denial, Spouting how successful this game was in terms of sales at launch, which was an inevitability. Thing is this game hasn't to much changed at all over the course of the beta's things where broken way way way long ago and went live, companion issues, un-removable quest, raid frame updates, UI, combat mechanics, PvP balance, faction balancing, They patch this game every Tuesday (sometimes), and what do they fix?

 

Two patches to address the ability delay and it's still lingering, they fixed Ilum because they had to it was pretty damn game breaking valor rank 100 in a few hours? Look at the patch notes, 1.1 they introduced half of a raid that they had "been working on for over a year" really!?!?!?! if content is going to take that long to develop that have stuff in the stables just holding on to it like I feel Bio-ware has been suspect of doing for ages.

 

This game is dying, people just want to believe that its not, retention rate high? republic side 120 on fleet (fake server display at very heavy) and planets just get less and less, like no more than 15-20 people on planets starting at alderaan, don't think I've seen hoth or the planet before it with more than 10 people during peek hours on a Saturday.

 

I like a vast majority are giving this game until march were they promised us great things (that should have been there at *********** launch) guild banks, Legacy system, PvP brackets, UI customization, hopefully addons or macros or both.

[SageH]

I actually find TOR more polished than Rift :S Rift felt so "clunky" :S

 

Whaaaat?!?! Rift was night and day different to TOR in responsiveness, and by that I meant leaps and bounds better. TOR seems to have managed to repeat every failure every other game has made and pretty much learned none of their lessons. At least, that's how I see their launch.

[SageH]

I disagree. Maybe you hate the VO, but for me its pure awesomeness. Playing the game is like watching a movie. Crafting in TOR is Ok, a bit better than the traditional gather items click click click BAM item. Music? I love the music. ToR has more than a dozen functional flashpoints, I'm sure.

ToR does fall far behind on some stuff though - Im concerned with guilds and AH the most, but, like they said, 1.2 will fix some of that.

 

Of course.... something will always becoming to "fix" it. The point of the post you were replying to is what with 4x the money and 2x the development time none of these issues should have occurred at launch and the fact that they did meant the money was pushed to places that should have had less. Broken animations, ability delay, general unresponsiveness, static UI, joke of a GTN, crafting that is utterly worthless... Maybe they should have funneled a few extra dollars into development and a few less to voice acting.

[Nessirin]

Swtor from release to now "Wow this game is fun I'm gonna keep playing it until it stops being fun"

 

 

Rift at release until 2 weeks in: "Oh boy a rift...and another rift. Hey more rifts. Hey I can't turn in quests because of rifts. Oh man I'm dead because I went exploring and ate a rift. Rift rift rift rift rift. Unsub."

[SageH]

I like a vast majority are giving this game until march were they promised us great things (that should have been there at *********** launch) guild banks, Legacy system, PvP brackets, UI customization, hopefully addons or macros or both.

 

I'm with you here, I'll stick it out until 1.2. After that, if its not in your face obvious they are making great strides to correct a lot of amateur mistakes then I'll find something else to play. Until then, its wait and see.. and hope.

Edited February 10, 2012 by SageH

[Catharsian]

Maybe it's because they were also working on Mass Effect Series, Dragon Age Series and a number of other games at the same time?

 

Also, again, this is always being brought up but Voice Over work does not cost millions upon millions. If that's true then maybe I should change careers and start applying for VO work?

 

Actually; Voice over is very expensive if you use real actors with known names. I was IMdB the other day and a slew of B-list actors (we're tlaking regualrs on Soaps, or the kind of ppl we all say, wasn't she in Law and order last week as a maid, and the week before as beat cop) are listed as doing voice overs for SWTOR. These are paid proferssionals, ppl who make good livings acting, you're not paying out of work waiters here, they actually hired the real deal..And real actors aren't cheap.

 

So yes, they did waste a lot of money on voice over because some genius decided "real" voice talent was necessary rather than drafting a bunch of nobodies. And in exchange we got crappy integration and a game that is subpar to industry standards.

 

And for those about to jump on industry std. I don't expect Rift quality release (Rift is s designer house full of the best and brightest in the industry, who still have the passion) but something like WAR or the current WoW. There are things we as players expect, things that are industry wide at this point:

 

1) customizable UI's (and we're not talking Add-ons, but merely resizing moving, or hiding stuff like maps and tollbars)

 

2) Tiered PvP (OMG, what is this L2?)

 

3) Usable AH..The thing we have in not an AH it's a Consignemnt Store..THey resell crap for you. I want my Virtual Ebay Like every other MMO

 

4) Modifiable Characters..no other active title I can thnk of doesn't have dyes. ( I want to color my armor like I can in Rifts, WoW, War, L2, and the list goes on)

 

5) extra curricular content. Rifts had crap loads of Easter eggs, WoW had unlocks for everything even jumping off certain bridges and dieing (I suicided off the promenade in Fleet --> Noting nada zip) or streaking the other side, War had hidden Dungeons that only popped occasionally, and lots of holiday events.(Valentines in less than a week, nothing, not sure I subbed after New Years but nothign so far and Chinese New Year is going on)

 

 

I think I covered most of these and few others in an earlier post on this thread. THe fact is regardless if Rifts or WAR were the greatest launches or most profitable compared to SWTOR this game lacks fundamental things that as a community we have come to expect. They spent too much time trying to create an engrossing storyline and left out the most important part of MMORPGS.......... the Game part. I am not watching a movie or reading a Star Wars book, I'm playing a game, and lack of Game features can not be compensated for by Fanboy love of an IP, or cool storytelling.

[ERRORCODEBLUE]

Most of the features that you tout as being amazing in WoW were in fact developed by the player community through the AddOn system and not Blizzard itself. And a LOT of the problems/exploits with the game were also because of the AddOn system.

 

I kinda like that they haven't rushed into allowing an Open AddOn system. I don't have to worry that someone is going to exploit some ability combination with a macro and one shot me in the face. Everything is left up to basic skill and if there are imbalances it is within the power of the developer to correct it. But don't get me wrong there are features that I would like to see in the very near future.

 

As for the common complaint about the combat log. Open your eyes and look at what you're fighting. Most, if not all the bosses and mobs, SHOW buffs/dmg with a description so you have a good idea of what just gibbed you.

 

Personally I think as SWTOR keeps on patching the game will continue to improve. I've already seen a lot of improvement across the board.

[Pinchy_]

Dumped it all on VOs so we can have our characters say the same lines over and over again by the time you hit 30+

 

"I really am the best."

 

"You got my attention"

[Fardarter]

Sales figures are the only numbers that matter and Rift had no chance. This game is a success and is growing stronger with each new sale.[/quote

 

Rift is making money. It cost a fraction of what SWTOR did to make and they own the IP. Rift can make money with far fewer subs than SWTOR can. SWTOR could have tons more subs and be less profitable than Rift is.

 

SWTOR will be fine once it gets its many issues ironed out. People will be drawn to the title for star wars.

[Goretzu]

Whaaaat?!?! Rift was night and day different to TOR in responsiveness, and by that I meant leaps and bounds better. TOR seems to have managed to repeat every failure every other game has made and pretty much learned none of their lessons. At least, that's how I see their launch.

 

The only really strange thing about this is that they've repeated some of the mistakes of Warhammer, and left out some of the successes (most Devs seem to ignore other devs mistakes only to make them themselves).

 

Which is strange considering how many at Bioware are Mythic, and that Bioware had complete control of Warhammer for 18 months before SWTOR went Live.