Sages and Sorcerors, an intelligent discussion.

[misanqq]

Cleanse/Purge is extremely underused in this game.

 

Protip: it screws over sorcerers

 

Why?

 

1. it gets rid of DoTs, which accounts for a good chunk of a sorcerer's damage

 

2. it gets rid of the majority of CCs a sorcerer has.

 

 

I agree lightning root should either be move up in the talent tree, or be changed to add to resolve (and all other roots in the game) and be cleansable.

Considering that the only people who can remove force DoTs besides sages/sorcerers are 5th tier heal-specced ops and commandos, I can only wonder why so few players "underuse" cleanse in this game.

[Vales]

Considering that the only people who can remove force DoTs besides sages/sorcerers are 5th tier heal-specced ops and commandos, I can only wonder why so few players "underuse" cleanse in this game.

 

Erm as far as I can see even most healers do not use Cleanse at all. So spare me.

[TetraCleric]

It does not fill resolve. It probably should, but it doesn't. I know, you say resolve not working properly isn't a class issue. Technically true, but there is exactly one class that is stacked with incredible amounts of cc and defensive cooldowns. Sorcs. Other classes should get less our of their CC too, but a lot of other classes couldn't fill a Resolve bar if they tried.

 

It seems you're changing your tune from, melee counters sorcs to melee with force leap counters sorcs. Is that your new stance? It's a good thing that you have more than 1 CC and escape ability and they have only one closer, right? They jump, you knockback and root. Then spam lightning as they slowly run up and eat another cc as soon as they jump again or finally turtle their way up to you. But hey, that's what they get for countering you so hard.

 

I would love to be the melee that runs around hitting for 3500 a pop every time. According to you they are out there. Does an Operatives opener knock down your shield? Sure it does, do you have half a dozen responses? You bet. Though you might want to wait for the stupid shield break debuff to wear off first.

 

Go ahead, keep thinking that because you struggle as a Sorc it means they're balanced. They're not, they're far too good in many ways, but hey don't worry. After the nerf if they do it right you won't even notice the difference and the really really good sorcs will be less abusive.

 

 

What? The only time I struggle is in 1v1, which the game isn't even built around, or if the team decides not to derp and go after tanks, and focuses on the player nuking them up. I never claimed anything fills resolve, other than insta WW that breaks on damage (because it adds a 2 second stun). Every single Sorc/Sage stun puts you one stun away from full resolve (the soft resolve as biowareftw put it). You get 2 stuns/knockbacks before the opponent is at full resolve. Oh and btw, we've been talking about Mar/Sent which both have Force Leap, so I've not changed my tune at all.

 

If I've timed my shields well enough, I should have the advantage from my shields. If you don't look at my debuffs before opening on me, is that my fault? I also didn't say melee hit for 3500 every time. I said their crits, which if they've geared themselves correctly do happen enough, hit for that hard, and especially any special attack.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TetraCleric

[misanqq]

As far as you can see.

[sithgrizley]

What? The only time I struggle is in 1v1, which the game isn't even built around, or if the team decides not to derp and go after tanks, and focuses on the player nuking them up. I never claimed anything fills resolve, other than insta WW that breaks on damage (because it adds a 2 second stun). Every single Sorc/Sage stun puts you one stun away from full resolve (the soft resolve as biowareftw put it). You get 2 stuns/knockbacks before the opponent is at full resolve. Oh and btw, we've been talking about Mar/Sent which both have Force Leap, so I've not changed my tune at all.

 

If I've timed my shields well enough, I should have the advantage from my shields. If you don't look at my debuffs before opening on me, is that my fault? I also didn't say melee hit for 3500 every time. I said their crits, which if they've geared themselves correctly do happen enough, hit for that hard, and especially any special attack.

 

You said melee countered sorcs. Now you say marauders, that's one of many melee classes.

 

The problem with resolve is right now it doesn't seem to work more often than it does, that gives sorcs that spec into more CC than they should be able to more of an advantage than they should. A combination of fixing resolve and moving things around the trees to limit the amount of CC a sorc can spec into will help a lot.

 

After those things if sorcs are still too strong then toning down or removing some of the baseline CC would be the next thing to look at, maybe removing their ranged interrupt.

[shaidarlol]

Really? You think melee has an advantage against Sorcs, let alone is a hard counter? Quit trolling friend, you're bad at it. 0/10.

 

Knockback and 5 second root on 20 second cooldown. 3500 shield on 20 second cooldown. Stun. Instant Whirlwind. Force speed.

 

Assuming you use just the shield, force speed and knockback over the course of 20 seconds the enemy spends 25% of his time rooted, 25% of his time running at you and has his 10 seconds of dps time mitigated by 3500 damage. Lets say he does 1000 dps, just as a rough guess. That means over 20 seconds he will deal 6500 damage to you. Then your cooldowns all repop again. Keep in mind that's without using any of your other stuff. If you use one of the longer cooldown CCs you can essentially keep someone from dealing any real damage to you forever as your cooldowns are short enough that by the time one expires another has repopped.

 

I wish every class countered me that hard.

 

aren't you an assassin?

[TetraCleric]

You said melee countered sorcs. Now you say marauders, that's one of many melee classes.

 

The problem with resolve is right now it doesn't seem to work more often than it does, that gives sorcs that spec into more CC than they should be able to more of an advantage than they should. A combination of fixing resolve and moving things around the trees to limit the amount of CC a sorc can spec into will help a lot.

 

After those things if sorcs are still too strong then toning down or removing some of the baseline CC would be the next thing to look at, maybe removing their ranged interrupt.

 

Hybrid specs have the same amount of CC as a pure spec madness/balance does. You only add one root, either way you spec. Where does all this extra CC come from? You get two stuns no matter your spec. One root if you go 31 mad. One root if you go hybrid. Thats still two stuns, and one root, which if my math is correct, is three CC's.

 

And melee do counter sorcs, particularly Mar/Sent and Sin/Shad which I've said a few times now.

[shaidarlol]

should just disregard this guy, all he does is think up situations where sorcerers has all the advantage whilst his enemy is apparently a dog that does nothing in response.

 

edit: i just reread one of his posts and i quote "That means over 20 seconds he will deal 6500 damage to you. Then your cooldowns all repop again"

 

if you can't deal 6500 dmg within a span of 3 globals you just aren't playing your class correctly PEROID. as any dps melee.

Edited February 9, 2012 by shaidarlol

[Aidank]

I love how everyone's talking about 1v1 situations, despite the fact that this game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1 at all.

 

I will do consistently better on my sorc than I do on my sentinel or scoundrel, despite my scoundrel having slightly better gear. I don't do as well in 1v1s, but that's because I don't really have any important cooldowns that are longer than 30 seconds.

[biowareftw]

Hybrid specs have the same amount of CC as a pure spec madness/balance does. You only add one root, either way you spec. Where does all this extra CC come from? You get two stuns no matter your spec. One root if you go 31 mad. One root if you go hybrid. Thats still two stuns, and one root, which if my math is correct, is three CC's.

 

And melee do counter sorcs, particularly Mar/Sent and Sin/Shad which I've said a few times now.

 

Misleading. aoe mez you pick up from hybrid spec is AUTOMATIC when your shield breaks. It requires no input or keypress from the player.

 

Just like the AUTOMATIC root on the knockback. Also the root is AOE, just like the shield break CC.

 

It shouldn't even be called "hybrid". It should be called free "I win talents" that should be higher up in the tree.

 

Add to that the proc that makes your lightning cast at double speed requires no input or "proc watching" from the player because you are spamming that key 80 percent of the time anyways.

 

LOL at the attempt to compare a key pressed root to automatic AOE roots and automatic AOE CC though.

Edited February 9, 2012 by biowareftw

[GrandMike]

I play a sage but I cannot do "ability to turn water into wine" yet.

 

Where do you learn that?

 

Weeeel,

 

you have to go to Tatooine and then

 

???

???

???

 

Profit

 

[TetraCleric]

Misleading. aoe mez you pick up from hybrid spec is AUTOMATIC when your shield breaks. It requires no input or keypress from the player.

 

Just like the AUTOMATIC root on the knockback. Also the root is AOE, just like the shield break CC.

 

It shouldn't even be called "hybrid". It should be called free "I win talents" that should be higher up in the tree.

 

Add to that the proc that makes your lightning cast at double speed requires no input or "proc watching" from the player.

 

LOL at the attempt to compare a key pressed root to automatic AOE roots and automatic AOE CC though.

 

That requires you to go 18(19)/21 which is a vastly inferior spec to 13/28 or even just 17/24. Sacrifice tons of damage, for a blind? No competent sorc will do that. The blind is in the 4th tier btw.

 

And the root in madness has a DoT on it, which makes it even better than the aoe root. And if you read into my post, its plain to see that for control, 31 mad is always superior because you get 3 forms of control with one reusable, where as the hybrid spec really only gets two because one root is conditional, and as you pointed out, auto tied to the knockback, and can never be used without the knockback. And if the target is full resolve, the knockback won't do anything, which means you can't put the root on them anyways.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TetraCleric

[shaidarlol]

That requires you to go 18(19)/21 which is a vastly inferior spec to 13/28 or even just 17/24. Sacrifice tons of damage, for a blind? No competent sorc will do that. The blind is in the 4th tier btw.

 

And the root in madness has a DoT on it, which makes it even better than the aoe root. And if you read into my post, its plain to see that for control, 31 mad is always superior because you get 3 forms of control with one reusable, where as the hybrid spec really only gets two because one root is conditional, and as you pointed out, auto tied to the knockback, and can never be used without the knockback. And if the target is full resolve, the knockback won't do anything, which means you can't put the root on them anyways.

 

actually if the person has full resolve you can still do the knockback and put the root on them, it just wont knock them back, as the dmg from the knockback is what applies root.

[TetraCleric]

actually if the person has full resolve you can still do the knockback and put the root on them, it just wont knock them back, as the dmg from the knockback is what applies root.

 

That hasn't been true from my play.

[shaidarlol]

That hasn't been true from my play.

 

go test it, i promise that's how it works, unlike other ppl i only post facts not random made up situations.

 

edit: i bet someone just going to use this as some way to show how OP sorcs are. "OMG FULL RESOLVE STILL ROOTS ME OP OP OP"

Edited February 9, 2012 by shaidarlol

[TetraCleric]

go test it, i promise that's how it works, unlike other ppl i only post facts not random made up situations.

 

I wouldn't have said otherwise if I hadn't already tested it. If I am wrong though it's still less useful than CT because of the cooldown difference. I can do 2 CT roots before I can do two overload roots.

Edited February 9, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Zunayson]

you forgot to add some other abilities sorcerers have like

stealth

stealth stun

vanish

shield that absorbs 20k

20k dmg from 60 range

omniscience

ability to turn water into wine

god like powers

 

no, assassins and shadows get stealth, not sorc and sage

see above

see above

only sorcs and sages, yes

not quite. Only if they're using h4x

nope

lolnope

[Rallic]

you forgot to add some other abilities sorcerers have like

stealth

stealth stun

vanish

shield that absorbs 20k

20k dmg from 60 range

omniscience

ability to turn water into wine

god like powers

 

Lmao you know nothing at all

Sorcs and sages do not have any of that

[Grubfist]

Lmao you know nothing at all

Sorcs and sages do not have any of that

 

He was kidding

[mandrillagon]

He was kidding

 

Some people cannot figure even the most obvious out, accept them do not judge them.

[Caeliux]

you forgot to add some other abilities Caeliux has like

god like powers and the urge to own everyone.

 

Fixed!

[Sinemetu]

What class had protection from losing 70% of hp when they finally got out of stun?

 

Any class with a knockback? Operatives lack a gap closer. I've said it before, but if you couldn't keep operatives off you as a sorc you were bad. I use the past tense because I haven't seen one since the nerf (I'm a healer).

 

Different issue: resolve is frequently seen as a sorc issue because you have more CC than anyone else. Mercs come in second, I believe, but their talent trees aren't nearly as good and they have some other issues.

[runiez]

You got no clue. Any decent Marauder/Sentinel and Vanguard/Powertech can destroy a Sorc/Sage given they are 50, well geared and experienced.

Of course it is different at low levels but who gives a damn?

 

I could make a similar pointless list of their abilities but what would be the point? You are just another avarage qqer who prefers to complain here instead of improving your gameplay.

 

 

Well even tho this is a good picture of what happens vs good mdps as sage/sorc, u wont change the mind of the average player here.

[calala]

..

heal 20k in 1.4 seconds

..

 

1.4 seconds? omg , they should fix that asap and make it an instant heal qq

[Grubfist]

Any class with a knockback? Operatives lack a gap closer. I've said it before, but if you couldn't keep operatives off you as a sorc you were bad. I use the past tense because I haven't seen one since the nerf (I'm a healer).

 

Yeah, Operatives are the least scary melee class. That Tech dot is annoying, but that's about it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Grubfist