Sages and Sorcerors, an intelligent discussion.

[Grubfist]

If you really think the HUGE increase in sorc/sage numbers has anything to do with the story (lol) or the look or I don't know what, then you are even more ignorant.

Where are shadows/assassins if the story is so incredibly fascinating? O wait, that's not the reason.

 

I play a level 50 shadow and I often encounter 2-3 Assassins on the enemy team in 50 pvp on my server. Of all different specs, too. I might try out Balance Shadow after seeing some of those guys (lovin Infil)

[Skrewloose]

Instead of crying Nerf all the time, why dont you guys try to play one first.

 

Then maybe you would actually know what your talking about.

[Vales]

I had more than enough WZs in which I was the only Sage. Seriously all these anectodal "evidence" proves about nothing.

[shaidarlol]

And here you just displayed your total ignorance about pvp and mmorpgs in general.

 

Average mmorpg player always picks the most tard-proof class to feel hardcore with his big numbers. Has always been this way and will always be.

 

If you really think the HUGE increase in sorc/sage numbers has anything to do with the story (lol) or the look or I don't know what, then you are even more ignorant.

Where are shadows/assassins if the story is so incredibly fascinating? O wait, that's not the reason.

 

A slight imbalance in class numbers is normal, but 3-5 sorcerers in every single warzone is not.

But probably you just dont want to admit you are playing a completely tard-proof class, wich is understandable.

 

But don't worry, you don't need to justfy anything, to avoid a nerf.

They aren't nerfing you.

They nerfed your counter-class, wich was one of the least played.

 

So don't worry, in a couple months you all will be happily playing your 8 sorc vs 8 sages warzones.

 

the huge increase in sorc/sage numbers? where did you get this metric other than from antecedal evidence you've probably gathered from the pvp forums, because i for one have not seen any numbers proving such.

 

by your logic i guess this is exactly why there are so many more imperials than there are republics, because imperials are overpowered. must be a tard-proof faction.

 

your opinion of the current class balance could hold water if the game was half a year old, but sorry it's not.

 

it's simple enough, let's just say in a game where there is only 1 or 2 sorcerers, would there still be an out cry of imbalance with the class? if there is then yes the class is in fact probably overpowered, but that is NEVER the case is it. it's always omg my entire screen is filled with lightning, there's always 3-5 sorcerers...

[ShizuXIII]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

[TetraCleric]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

 

Actually, any melee class is a hard counter for Sorcs, and technically speaking Sorcs/Sages aren't a true hard counter to any class. Sentinels/Marauders eat through Sorcs, as do Assassins/Shadows. Ops/Scoundrel still does when played in the right hands.

 

You keep proving "fanboy" points when you whine.

Edited February 8, 2012 by TetraCleric

[biowareftw]

Here is some information on Sages that I thought the forum community ought to know whilst they discuss the relative power levels of sages versus other classes. I do not know the names of the Sorceror equivalents, but I know their lightning does Energy damage whenever Sages do Kinetic. Both are mitigated by armor.

 

Attacks:

 

Weaken Mind: No cooldown. 15-second DoT, talented 21-second. Internal damage (NOT mitigated by armor). Ticks every 3 seconds. Cleansable (Force)

 

Mind Crush: 15-second cooldown. Deals initial damage and adds a 6-second (can be talented to 8-second in Tier 5 Balance) DoT that ticks every second. Kinetic Damage (mitigated by armor). Cleansable (Force)

 

Disturbance: No cooldown. Casted single-target spell. Base cast time is 1.5 seconds. Kinetic damage (mitigated by armor).

 

Telekinetic Throw: 6-second cooldown. Talented to no cooldown in Tier 3 Balance tree. 3-second channel that deals damage instantly and once every second after (4 ticks). Kinetic Damage (mitigated by armor). This ability also causes a slow on the target. This slow is cleansable (Physical). Cleansing this slow will prevent it from being re-applied for the rest of that channel. Tier 3 Telekinetics can spec into a proc that makes this spell channel and tick twice as fast.

 

Project: 6-second cooldown. Instant-cast that throws a rock at an enemy. Animation delay causes it to not hit QUITE instantly. Can be talented in tier 2 Balance to have a 45% chance to summon another rock that deals reduced damage. Kinetic damage (mitigated by armor).

 

Force In Balance (Balance spec tier 3 skill) 15-second cooldown. Instant-cast AOE that hits 3 enemies in its target area. Heals the caster for 1% per target hit. Later talents make the targets more susceptible to the caster's DoTs. Internal damage (NOT mitigated by armor)

 

Sever Force (Balance Spec end-point skill) 9-second cooldown. Instant cast DoT that immobilizes the target for 2 seconds when it lands and deals damage over 18 seconds. Internal damage (NOT mitigated by armor). Cleansable (Force).

 

Telekinetic Wave (Telekinetic Spec tier 3 skill) 6-second cooldown. 3-second cast time. Hits up to 5 targets. Can be talented to get instant-cast procs. Kinetic damage (mitigated by armor).

 

Turbulence (Telekinetic end-point skill) 9-second cooldown. 2-second base cast time. If its target is afflicted by Weaken Mind, it will always critically hit. Internal Damage (NOT mitigated by armor).

 

 

 

 

Defenses:

 

Force armor: 5-second cooldown (2-second when talented in tier-3 Seer (healer)) Absorbs damage. Can be talented for 20% increased strength in Tier-2 Telekinetics. Tier 4 Telekinetics can also talent it to incapacitate every enemy around them when it breaks. This lasts 3 seconds and breaks on damage. Cannot be cast on the same target more than once every 20 seconds.

 

Force Lift: Mez that lifts the target into the air, preventing all action. 1-minute cooldown (can be talented to 45 seconds in tier 3 Telekinetics). 2-second base cast time (Can be talented to insta-cast in tier 4 balance, which also causes it to stun when damage breaks it early). Cleansable (Force).

 

Force Wave: 20-second cooldown. AoE knockback. Deals very small amount of kinetic damage to enemies hit by it. Tier 3 telekinetics can spec into an immobilize on all the targets hit by this spell. This immobilize lasts 5 seconds, but will break on damage after 2 seconds. This immobilize is NOT cleansable.

 

Force Stun: 1-minute cooldown (Tier 2 balance can spec it down to 50-second cooldown). 4-second stun that deals a small amount of Kinetic damage as it lands.

 

Force Slow: 12-second cooldown. (Only Shadows can talent this ability for shorter cooldowns/longer durations. Sages cannot.) a 50% slow that lasts for 6 seconds and deals a small amount of kinetic damage upon application.

 

Force Speed: 30-second cooldown. Grants 100% movement speed for 2 seconds. Can be talented in tier 4/5? Telekinetics down to 20-second cooldown.

 

 

 

 

MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS:

-Have skills that benefit Telekinetic Throw higher up in their respective trees, so that a Hybrid spec cannot utilize all of these bonuses with one spec.

-Make the talented immobilize from Force Wave ALWAYS break on damage, as well as making it cleansable.

 

 

Hope you all can debate with a better understanding of what you're talking about now. Thanks.

 

Easier solution that won't affect pve balance in anyway.

 

Move no cooldown lightning spam to the 31 point talent in balance. Switch with 31 point talent.

 

Accomplishes two things.

 

1) the hybrid spec is OP as hell and we told them this in beta. You are fooling yourself if you think this class is balanced around a hybrid spec. All the classes in this game are balanced around going 31 points deep and specs that avoided this have already been nerfed. Hell even marauders/sentinels that were taking speed buffs over dmg (for group utility) were nerfed and you are now FORCED to spec into dmg.

 

2) Won't see everyone and their brother rerolling this class because it would be a late bloomer (like many classes already are).

 

There is nothing wrong with the balance/madness spec or lightning/tele spec. One is pvp, one is pve. Getting the "money talents" in both is broken. No balance/madness does not need a buff.

 

Full balance/madness is actually a balanced spec.

 

For those that say this would make leveling harder? Lightning/tele is a better leveling spec anyways. It just sucks in pvp until the 40's (so do other classes so boohoo). Lightning is underrated to be honest, people are just so used to herp derping they are convinced it is broken.

 

I can easily lead dmg in any warzone as lighting or balance as can anyone who was decent on a shadow priest or a frost mage in WoW. The hybrid spec? I have to TRY to die...

Edited February 8, 2012 by biowareftw

[Calista_ZK]

^^ what he said.

 

That force wave (edited so the retard below maybe understands) garbage is completely ****ed up.

I never see less than 3 sorcerers per team, usually 4 and sometimes 5 or 6.

 

Imagine the fun for stealthers with 3-5 sorcerers spamming that garbage on cd.

 

Cooldown is way too short and range way too big, for a skill wich can literally disable an entire team.

 

Also, sprint on the "mage" class? Seriously? Combine it with force-wave, perma snares, endless CC and shield.

For a class wich is supposed to struggle a lot vs melee, you surely have a lot of tools to completely disable them.

 

Interesting. Who says that we are discussing" a class wich is supposed to struggle a lot vs mele"?

 

If you want an easy win, that isn't class balance. If you are also basing this simply on the outcome of some warzones where you had an imbalance of ranged versus melee, that's also a very poor way to talk about how to balance a class. Change the maps, or form a premade.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Calista_ZK

[shaidarlol]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

 

so much for intelligent discussion xD

[Grubfist]

added the cleanse ability to the list.

[Vales]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

 

So you never played WoW but you know it is garbage. But you want to "judge" the avarage "Sorc" player which you know equally less but you accuse us of being "stupid" for doing so. I do know that you are bad simpy from the way you post. Its ALL the Sorc/Sages fault that you lose in PvP, of course YOU are the epitome of skill so of course you are right.

Nice self own here Mister.

Continue your useless drivel, it is highly amusing.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Vales

[Skrewloose]

I've played every class in the game to at least level 30. I did say OP's were a little op, and apparently I was right. After the nerf, I can still kill people just fine. It's the bads who are crying about not being able to kill in 3 shots.

 

So yeah, I still say people should try to play the class before they cry nerf it.

[Grubfist]

so much for intelligent discussion xD

 

Perhaps I should change it to "informed" rather than "intelligent"

[Vales]

Already the uninformed trolls are here. So it is too late.

[shaidarlol]

Perhaps I should change it to "informed" rather than "intelligent"

 

i think i can predict the future, most of what i said in a post on page 2 has come true. just waiting for the thread to die tomorrow then i'm going to change my profession to a fortune telling IRL.

[Soultyr]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

 

 

Melee is suppose to be the counter kill for sorcs not another ranged dps class.....

I wonder why anyone would make the counter for a ranged dps class another ranged dps class. Whats the counter for the second class?

 

What class had protection from losing 70% of hp when they finally got out of stun? Operatives needed the nerf.

@ lvl 50 melee dps such as sentinels destroy sorcs.

[CommandoPower]

In WoW mages have blink, in TOR, sages/sorcs have sprint.

 

Blink removes all slow/root effects and frees you from a stun.

 

Sprint does none of the above, and you can be rooted/stunned during the sprint.

 

What perma snares? Any two Sorc/Sage stun/knockbacks and you are full resolve. Knockback? half way to full resolve. Stun? Halfway to full resolve. Talented instant Incap? Full resolve if broken on damage.

 

You act like Sorc/Sage have all these CC abilities that don't affect resolve, when in reality you can only use two in a given situation. If you drag the fight out, you can get more, but then that's really falling on the other players shoulders.

 

I wasn't going to say anything in this thread but your horribly wrong. Resolve is broken and even with it working right I have been double PBAOE KB'd with roots, then stunned, then restunned before the duration of the first stun wore off. That chain CC is within the rules of the current system.

 

I've never had 2 pbaoe kbs alone max my resolve.

 

 

 

This is all when resolve works correctly, which it simply doesn't alot of the time. I've been pulled/cc/kb/etc well after resolve has kicked in many times. Which is very frustrating when you exit CC and have 3 seconds of resolve left...

[biowareftw]

I've played every class in the game to at least level 30. I did say OP's were a little op, and apparently I was right. After the nerf, I can still kill people just fine. It's the bads who are crying about not being able to kill in 3 shots.

 

So yeah, I still say people should try to play the class before they cry nerf it.

 

I played it in beta. It was the easiest most dumbed down "mage class" I have ever played in an MMO.

 

It is a vanilla WoW shadow priest (when all classes were easy) that doesn't have to shift in and out of shadow to heal, and who spams mindflay to proc instant mindblasts.

 

As hybrid the "fear" is automatic when your shield breaks, and along with that you get a knockback that roots and a ranged hammer of justice and a instant polymorph soft cc. Oh yeah...add autofacing to that (LOL).

 

Please spare me posts like yours. We have played this class. I told you how to balance it. It is the right way to do it. It would not affect raiding at all. The class would still be borderline OP in pvp, due to how simple it is too play.

 

BTW the sage story also sucked. Worst storyline in the game. The companions sucked up till Nadia as well. What more do you want to know about the class...

 

The class is faceroll and boring, the hybrid spec is op as hell, the 31 point specs are fine. That about sums it up.

Edited February 8, 2012 by biowareftw

[ShizuXIII]

So you never played WoW but you know it is garbage. But you want to "judge" the avarage "Sorc" player which you know equally less but you accuse us of being "stupid" for doing so. I do know that you are bad simpy from the way you post. Its ALL the Sorc/Sages fault that you lose in PvP, of course YOU are the epitome of skill so of course you are right.

Nice self own here Mister.

Continue your useless drivel, it is highly amusing.

 

I judge the bs you write on a public forum.

I'm not the one who started calling people "bads" just because they disagree with me.

And I judge your stupidity, wich is not necessarily related to your (lack of) gaming skills, by what you wrote in the last few replies.

But somehow, from the same small amount of replies, you figured exactly how I play and how much I win or lose.

 

Never played WoW because a lot of friends, who was good pvpers in games with good pvp like DAoC or Guild Wars, told me it's garbage and have shown me exactly why it's garbage (for pvpers).

So yes, you using it as an example tells a lot about what you consider "good" pvp.

 

Continue your useless drivel, it is highly amusing.

[shaidarlol]

I really enjoy the style of the average sorc fanboy.

 

- Calling people "bads" without knowing anything about said people. Disagree with me = BADS OLOLOLOL.

- Throwing around WoW examples to justify an awful PvP system. Never played that garbage, thank you very much.

- "Play it before crying for a nerf". How many of you did you play an operative/scoundrel before crying for a nerf? Oh the surprise. One of the least played classes was nerfed big time in the very first "balance" patch. Oh, even bigger surprise. It was your hard counter.

- Assorted idiocy like comparing force wave with stuff like flash grenade. 20 secs cd vs 60 secs cd.

 

 

 

So thanks for proving my point about the quality of the average sorc player.

 

btw, most TOP operative saw the said "nerf" as a buff, only the bad ones that relied upon killing someone without them able to respond thought the nerf was actually a nerf.

 

i for one as a sorc did not want operatives to be nerfed, i felt they were fine, why? because the operative open burst MADE me get that blind talent so can counter their burst. you see how that works? instead of crying for nerfs i opted to look into my own class to compensate and evolve. whilst others cried on the forums. tbh i prefer the pre 1.1 operative at least i know once i trinket the hidden strike i'll live, now lol good operatives still kill me. guess i should learn to play my OP class better.

[nubzz]

Oh then your missing half the fun. There is nothing they can't do. They should rename the class and call them GameMasters!

+1 point to be added to your score by the end of the next business cycle.

[TetraCleric]

I wasn't going to say anything in this thread but your horribly wrong. Resolve is broken and even with it working right I have been double PBAOE KB'd with roots, then stunned, then restunned before the duration of the first stun wore off. That chain CC is within the rules of the current system.

 

I've never had 2 pbaoe kbs alone max my resolve.

 

 

 

This is all when resolve works correctly, which it simply doesn't alot of the time. I've been pulled/cc/kb/etc well after resolve has kicked in many times. Which is very frustrating when you exit CC and have 3 seconds of resolve left...

 

So resolve not working is the Sorcs/Sage problem?

 

Because fyi, one knockback full blue's you on resolve, just like any other single stun ability the Sorc/Sage has. Any second stun, or knockback puts you at full resolve.

 

Resolve not working is not a class balance issue.

Edited February 8, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Vales]

I played it in beta. It was the easiest most dumbed down "mage class" I have ever played in an MMO.

 

It is a vanilla WoW shadow priest (when all classes were easy) that doesn't have to shift in and out of shadow to heal, and who spams mindflay to proc instant mindblasts.

 

As hybrid the "fear" is automatic when your shield breaks, and along with that you get a knockback that roots and a ranged hammer of justice and a instant polymorph soft cc. Oh yeah...add autofacing to that (LOL).

 

Please spare me posts like yours. We have played this class. I told you how to balance it. It is the right way to do it. It would not affect raiding at all. The class would still be borderline OP in pvp, due to how simple it is too play.

 

BTW the sage story also sucked. Worst storyline in the game. The companions sucked uo till Nadia as well. What more do you want to know about the class...

 

The class is faceroll and boring, the hybrid spec is op as hell, the 31 point specs are fine. That about sums it up.

 

More opinionated Nonsense.

The class is just as easy or hard as any other.

This class in comparison to priests does not have:

 

An inherent AoE Fear which does not even break on damage for sure. And Fear effects are nearly as strong as stuns. Cannot do anyrhing while being affected.

It does not have Offensive Dispel.

It has no Mass Dispel which dispels evertything in a large radius

No inherent HoT

No inherent DoT which also heals

No inherent AoE Heal

No inherent spamable CC like Mind Control which completly takes out a player and could be abused to hell in the right terrain

A self buff which buffs its own armor to medium/heavy armor

The option to burn away other classes resources like priests could with Manaburn.

 

This was just the base package I described without even going into talent speccs.

 

And if we talk about Sage/Sorc hybrids vs Shadowpriests:

 

SPs have:

Silence which completly shuts down casters.

A 3 second Terror combined with a 10 second Disarm both which never break on damage.

90% damage reduction and CC breaker in one package on a 90 second CD.

15% passive damage reduction

Passive self heal

SP had and still has one of the highest potential single target bursts and still has

 

Maybe you should get a clue before spouting so much utter nonsense

 

Btw the sage story is decent and gets good starting in chapter 2. I believe you did not play a sage past Coruscant for real.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Vales

[shaidarlol]

at this point, i hope bioware nerf sorcs into the ground. sadly the good sorcerers will still dominate, like the good operatives still dominate.

 

i actually do hope they switch creeping terror with madness, i would now gain a 2 second root every 9 seconds along with my aoe knock back + root. instead of force lightning spam i'd just use lightning strike to proc chain lightning and keep conduction up. please let it happen bioware

[Khadroth]

Oh then your missing half the fun. There is nothing they can't do. They should rename the class and call them GameMasters!

 

/RocksFallDownEveryoneDies