AstralProjection Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 The populations on the servers is too low. When there are only 20 Repubics on Alderaan, how can you engage in PvP? Perhaps the servers cant handle more, but that is a real deficiency in this game. I remember in WoW when it first came out, before battlegrounds, there would be areas where perhaps 200 people would join for a huge pvp battle. That was fun. Or we would form multiguild raids on one of the other side's capital cities I know that there are a few areas where some pvp occurs, but at level 30-40, world pvp is a waste of time. And the key is the terribly small number of people on each world at one time. And the server will be showing a heavy load. But then I log on and find 25 people on the entire planet. And maybe see 3 or 4 if Im lucky. This needs to be fixed. Merge the populations on the servers and bulk up their capabilities. I get what you're saying - keep in mind that they won't merge servers while the game's population is still growing - contrary to what is indicated by all the rage quit posts. I remember a few times in WoW where 80+ people converged and DIDN'T crash or lag the servers to nothing, but it was rare. It's really a limitation of all these games. Most of that early PVP on my WoW server and many others resulted in servers rebooting. It's fun when it goes on for a little, but most people get sick of it pretty quickly. I still wouldn't mind one once in a while if the servers could handle it. I think what we miss more in WoW is the ability to actually storm capitals and towns which happened a lot Pre-Battleground. Short of building player housing that's the only part of the map players care about right now. The rest of the game is a gear grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralProjection Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think if you just added to the time it takes to take objectives, and at the same time warn the opposing side that that objective is being captured a lot of exploit stuff would be gone, the more players the faster it caps as you say, but it still should be possible for one or two to ninja a point but it just takes A LOT LONGER to do, I mean like minutes for lone cappers, all the while the other side gets the warning to send reinforcements. Longer cap times encourage responsive defense. This would need to be play tested to get the timers right. Also I think you should be rewarded when you sort of take a major objective (but you cant take the major ones without some or the majority of the minor ones) but not necessarily for a single cap. Maybe get a tentative reward if your faction takes the larger objective, you get extra for taking a point. Totally agree...I think with a few improvements Ilum could actually be good. The key is what you mentioned - this has to be play tested. A lot of the patch hate right now is from the fact that these patches haven't been tested well or the major glitches would've been noticeable. Right now, a lot of that hate is justified until we can roll canned 50's or copy our characters to test - there's no way for us to test Ilum effectively right now otherwise, or any other level capped changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FodderofCannon Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Totally agree...I think with a few improvements Ilum could actually be good. The key is what you mentioned - this has to be play tested. A lot of the patch hate right now is from the fact that these patches haven't been tested well or the major glitches would've been noticeable. Right now, a lot of that hate is justified until we can roll canned 50's or copy our characters to test - there's no way for us to test Ilum effectively right now otherwise, or any other level capped changes. A good idea would to have a lowbie Ilum for test. Use the bolster system like in WZ and allow people to play it at lower levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralProjection Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Oh and one more thing, for third faction you could just allow smugglers and BH to choose which side they are on when they enter Ilum and then they have to remain that way for a whole day (24hrs). Perhaps they could get credits for kills if they pick the smaller faction?? I thought about this as well - City of Heroes eventually allowed faction changes years later, it's doable with work. The smugglers and BH naturally could gravitate toward either side - could be a fun way to shake up the factions down the line - give people a chance to declare their loyalty to any factions with certain classes that fit the bill. You could also have a Mandalorian class that chooses to work with one side or the other because of codes of honor/impressive battle leaders, etc. It's not above them to swear to follow a certain banner because of someone's battle prowess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereard Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I like your ideas and hope some of them will be considered by the devs, unfortunately there are not much constructive things i could add. I also played DAoC and loved the RVR-System. The of IP gives enough for a third faction but i dont thing in the near future a new faction will be implemted because there is way too much work that would be needed. But i think Ilum should get a revamp soon, i like the idea of points/bases that are not straight in line, spread around the map, maybe with some defences, some canyons where you can lose line of sight. If hold for some time you could improve the defences, something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralProjection Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I like your ideas and hope some of them will be considered by the devs, unfortunately there are not much constructive things i could add. I also played DAoC and loved the RVR-System. The of IP gives enough for a third faction but i dont thing in the near future a new faction will be implemted because there is way too much work that would be needed. But i think Ilum should get a revamp soon, i like the idea of points/bases that are not straight in line, spread around the map, maybe with some defences, some canyons where you can lose line of sight. If hold for some time you could improve the defences, something like this. Yeah, I agree...a lot of the suggestions are long term - but hey, there will certainly be expansions with a launch this successful. I would love to see an "Attack of the Killer Hutts" expansion with a better name, that adds this much needed third faction and spices things up for veterans who want to see new starter areas and new races. Just that alone would probably bring back every player that unsubbed just to try out such a major change, and keep the current subs for a long time to come when it gives long-term balance to RvR and PvP. It's going to take something that big for a first expansion - not just 10 levels or whatever IMO to keep everyone...either "Jump to Lightspeed 2.0", or a third faction. I'd rather see the third faction right now even though I love flight sims, because I think it would bring more improvements to the game overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siant Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 i had an idea last night why not make it so when you cap a point the arnamants start to spawn there for the team that capped it, this would break up the need for people to have to rush the middle in some hope of getting a kill from the zerg that is always there collecting arnaments. Also make it so the buff only last while you hold that point so if you lose it you lose the buff for example 5 points= 5Xbuff 4 points=4xbuff and so on. this will again break up the mass of people in the middle and at least encourage the underdog side to fight to get a point on a more even playing field. This idea i think could be put in a quick patch as it isnt a complete change of illum and would be a good start to make it more enjoyable. what do you guys think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NwahsNirom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The biggest thing I think that would help PvP, and should be fairly easy to implement (?), would be to take the city flipping of SWG and put it here, and then have like a World PvP panel in the codex or Mission Log that tells players all over the server who owns what cities, to make it competitive. When you see you're losing the WAR (this is Star Wars after all) because you own less cities, you're going to want to go take some cities. And the faction that owns the most cities gets XP buffs for all players that are currently leveling alts or newbies, as well as buffs to Damage/Healing/Mitigation. How sweet would it be if you felt like you were actually fighting for something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think you an I are the last of the "PK" breed mate, most now are Antis or pve'ers farming shinys . good post by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffor Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 the world pvp in this game is exactly the same as swg. so they thought thats what everyone wanted since everyone cried when swg shut down. they picked the most logical way to do it. they are not mind readers even though you expect them to be We wish. SWG had excellent open world pvp. I guess it could have depended on what server you played on but I know that Bloodfin and Ahazi both had awsome open world PVP. In TOR open world PVP is bored Sith Empire players ganking Rep players while they are engaged with NPCs. At least that's what I've seen. Even though they out number us they still wait until I'm fighting MOBs. That would be great if it actually led to bigger fights but, sadly, it doesn't. You don't even get points for open world kills. IMO they need to have open world PVP before they can save it. Heck if we only had the Bestin/Anchorhead corridor from SWG in this game we'd be set. I'm not giving up hope yet but open world PVP needs serious help in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 We wish. SWG had excellent open world pvp. I guess it could have depended on what server you played on but I know that Bloodfin and Ahazi both had awsome open world PVP. In TOR open world PVP is bored Sith Empire players ganking Rep players while they are engaged with NPCs. At least that's what I've seen. Even though they out number us they still wait until I'm fighting MOBs. That would be great if it actually led to bigger fights but, sadly, it doesn't. You don't even get points for open world kills. IMO they need to have open world PVP before they can save it. Heck if we only had the Bestin/Anchorhead corridor from SWG in this game we'd be set. I'm not giving up hope yet but open world PVP needs serious help in this game. yer I was on Ahazi an tor has NOTHING in common with SWG pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffor Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 yer I was on Ahazi an tor has NOTHING in common with SWG pvp. It's a shame really too because many of the same players are here playing TOR. We could have excellent battles. I'm still hopeful though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amp_ Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I am going to lean towards no unless BioWare puts a lot of resources into it, which I don't see happening. I don't think world pvp in this game will ever be more than a novelty, sad as that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm a little more pessimistic than you. Your average gamer today doesn't want difficulty, doesn't want content doesn't want in depth play, they want.......Shinys. It honestly boils down to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robogoofers Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'd say "Yes" as an answer because even though Ilum is currently far from well-implemented it CAN function. If both sides have roughly the same number of people and the same amount of interest you get raids fighting each other. The problem is that circumstances are currently far from ideal on most servers (mine is hugely empire skewed). A good first step is conceptualizing how long the daily on Ilum is supposed to take if things are not ideal. It taking too long makes the zone frustrating because even if you want two raids fighting each other you can't just phone up 59 of your closest friends to make it happen. Right now, the daily is basically undoable for the side who doesn't have dominance and extremely boring for the side that does. A simple fix: For the side that controls less points on Ilum, make it so that capping points counts towards they daily. They go shoot rocket launchers at wherever the enemy isn't. This encourages hit-and-run type gameplay and allows them options. The control is that in order to get points from this the other side has to control the minority of points, which means that only one side can get points from this at any given time. The big hole is that this may just encourage trading at center, but I suspect that being able to get valor in addition to daily points will discourage that. For the side that controls more points on Ilum, make it so that you have do something more exciting than finding boxes (which makes no sense anyways). A simple suggestion is that you have to go to assault closest to the enemy base and then trigger some kind of event that will cause a few hostile NPCs to spawn. Killing a wave gets you some amount of points. This also allows a chance that the minority side may be able to use this opportunity to gank you, as you're distracted with the mobs. Far from ideal, but shooting mobs is way better than getting boxes. Basic gist: we need a way for Illum to function when one side is massively dominant, in a way that makes it an interesting place to hang out at for however long the daily is supposed to take. Rig points for doing this activity so that the daily will take 30-45 minutes (on the long side, I'm not sure what the goal is), the important point is to make sure that it will always be faster (and better, due to valor) if you can kill the other side, but that there's a way to accomplish the daily if you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FodderofCannon Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm a little more pessimistic than you. Your average gamer today doesn't want difficulty, doesn't want content doesn't want in depth play, they want.......Shinys. It honestly boils down to that. Although I am pessimistic as well, I think part of the problem is most developers are not brave enough to do anything but "shinys". It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Players expect to be rewarded in this manner, and developers are afraid to try something different because of this. I think if the game play was engaging and rewarding enough as it is, "shinys" would not be required. I mean people play games for the game in almost all other genres, why is it in MMO that we think loot is the only thing people care about? If the game play is FUN then people will play it. I like good loot as much as the next guy, but really that's not why I play. I play to have a good time. IF they made an engaging, balanced, pvp open world game with objectives I would log in gleefully for that WAY over getting the next pecie of "epic" gear. It's about the challenge and reward of winning, not some arbitrary piece of loot for me. WoW just really brainwashed a whole generation of MMO gamers into thinking this is the only way to do things. That's the problem, when something is popular it becomes entrenched in peoples minds and becomes "ideology". It's just based on the human habit of classifying things into what they know as "good" and what they don't know as "bad". I think with the right mechanic the fun factor can override peoples ideology, because hell, they are having FUN right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_knine Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Agree with OP Make game more like SWG!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internicio Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 real basic suggestions (nothing ground breaking): 1) create craftable pvp gear: the mats can only be farmed in world pvp zones 2) create new pvp gear: Vendor only available if you control key objectives in a world pvp zone 3) Cross PVP with PVE: a buff useful for operations obtained through controling key objectives in world pvp zone 4) dying subtracts in some way while in pvp zone (perhaps makes your progress toward an objective go backwards) 5) tokens for completing objectives in pvp zone that allow for something cool (such as modify the look of your pvp gear) also: fix imbalance issue - 1) cap number from each side in zone 2) buff smaller side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDrummer Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This was a great read. I agree that once the "launch woes" are over, and all the whiners finally quit the game, we will have to start taking charge creating meaningful world pvp on our own. Where it's more about the sport (and calling up your bros to come avenge your alt) than the gank/mount/leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 See, I think right now even SWG had us beat by a longshot - I can't build bases here, or attack them (the missing sandbox element). I also can't flip planets to my faction - even THAT was more meaningful than what WoW/TOR, the big guns, are offering us. I'd LOVE to see that element. In the end-game you're amassing all these credits and for what? To buy sh*t you don't want just because you have them? I'd love to pump them into a meaningful and fulfilling World PvP experience and feel like I'm contributing to something 'bigger'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_knine Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'd LOVE to see that element. In the end-game you're amassing all these credits and for what? To buy sh*t you don't want just because you have them? I'd love to pump them into a meaningful and fulfilling World PvP experience and feel like I'm contributing to something 'bigger'. Agree I like themepark for WZs and PvE instances, even leveling and story arcs. However at max level we need more sandbox elements. Why develop all these worlds if they are never seen again once you hit max level? Where is the sense of adventure, of change, give me a reason to spend hours playing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This was a great read. I agree that once the "launch woes" are over, and all the whiners finally quit the game, we will have to start taking charge creating meaningful world pvp on our own. Where it's more about the sport (and calling up your bros to come avenge your alt) than the gank/mount/leave. I'd love for that to be the case but can you really see that happening? Stuff like 3factions is an awesome idea and more meaningful World PvP ... but the way the game is set up would require a HUGE overhaul. I fear they've committed to this particular course and are just going to reward the casuals whilst they're here, ignore the others and end up losing both for different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Agree I like themepark for WZs and PvE instances, even leveling and story arcs. However at max level we need more sandbox elements. Why develop all these worlds if they are never seen again once you hit max level? Where is the sense of adventure, of change, give me a reason to spend hours playing!!! Yeah, that's a good point. I'm really pretty content with my main so will probably never see most planets again. Seems a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 World pvp is flawed and not fixable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internicio Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Agree I like themepark for WZs and PvE instances, even leveling and story arcs. However at max level we need more sandbox elements. Why develop all these worlds if they are never seen again once you hit max level? Where is the sense of adventure, of change, give me a reason to spend hours playing!!! yep, and you have to go out of your way to fly over to Ilum...so there has to be a reason why you go there in something like SWG - you were already there, so it was easier to interact with others .... how about instead of zones you have whole planets that can be conquered by one faction or the other and build stuff on them and you actually have to fly to those planets (instead of loadscreens) so you have space combat getting there and you can build space defenses, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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