bring balance to marauders!

[darth_billy]

:sy_spacestation:marauders and ofc sentinels are supposed(promoted as...) to be the apex damage dealers since they are pure dps , medium armored with no stuns, no cc, no skills that cant utilize the environment like force push or pull(into the acid pool form example).

The reality is different than its "supposed" to be , the vast majority from decent up to well skilled mara goes mid table in wz and those who are below this level ,they hit rock bottom.

probably many of you will argue that you have seen marauders dominate , killing someone in the blink of an eye blah blah, I dont care ,that doesnt changes the fact that an mara of random skill level has worst output than an equally skilled ranged player.

Indeed there are mara who top damage/kill chart on a wz but they are exceptionaly skilled. my point is tha a decent mara player is significantly worst comparing to a NOOB ranged player who facerolls etc and this is unarguably unfair. If you disagree with this you lie even to yourself.

 

MY explanation for this is that all non meelee classes have min 1-2 stuns + knockbacks +slow down skills+significantly lasting immoblize skills +30m range dps +burst(since they dont have to gather rage before they begin their rotations).

 

:sy_darkside:if for example you knowback , imobbilize ... actually if you do anything of the aformentioned other than stun to a ranged dps player you dont disrupt at all his dps sequence/rotation because you are still in range, simple as that.

 

:sy_darkside:if you do the same thing to a heavy armored meelee player there is chance that his armor and def buff will help him to get back in range without any devastating hp loss but still you disrupt his dps sequnce while you keep dealing damage on him for significant time since he has to walk his way back to his target and often he will be slowed down too.

 

:sy_darkside:if you have a MARAUDER on the same scenario you are doing all ther afformentioned + during the proceedure to get back in range he sustains damage witch could be proved enough to lose the fight since his def buffs are few , they have big cooldowns or dont last long(scratch out loack of p.) and more importantly his distance closer(force charge) probably is still on coolsdown and even if it comes out of colldown (15secs cd ) he will probaly be slowed down and beaten enough to lose, not to mention that the longer the 1v1 fight last the easier it gets to be futher involved in a 1v2(+) situation .

 

in my point of view this is the definition of being underated(slightly but...). In order to restore balance among the classes my suggession is to dramaticly decrease the cool down of force charge .

:sy_target:also devs should take under some serious cosideration how complicated the battle machanics of a mara are(for example all decent and more than decent buff require 30 stacks which pvpwise are not easy to maintain(except cloack of pain ) Thats not such such a majro isue but it's a fact.

 

i thing my syggestions are reasonable at least the one about the cd of force charge is, providing that ranged classes have a significant variety of stuns knowbacks etc on the other hand force charge is our 1 and ONLY distance closer(on meelee clashes) and escpecialy on mara is the only skill with 10m<range=30m

every comment/opinion is welcomed but i am really looking forward fro the comments of fellow marauders.

 

P.S.to make things clear, according to my criteria, i rank my self as a decent player nothing less nothing more and my experience from playing other classes showed me that mara has slighly more drawbacks tha he should and he is undoubtly the harder class to play with.

 

 

addittions to the original post

suggestions other than mine made in this post

:sy_target:someone suggested of having an actual stealth instead of our current so called stealth. I honestly find it even better than my suggestion since stealth was promoted as one of our key features and obviously it is nothing special but if it was a go to move it could make a real difference on pvp and it feels so marauder

 

:sy_target:Perhaps altering a few abilities or talents to compensate areas where Marauders are too weak such as:

Example: 3 point talent that gives you a percentage chance to either be Immune to push/pull effects for 7s when Force Charging/Obliterating OR to allow the CD of Force Charge to be reset when your hit by a Push/pull effect within 10second of Force Charging.

originaly posted:http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=315520

 

 

clarifications and additional points from the discussion so far

:sy_spacestation:Many consider this post whining from someone who gets beaten all the time which is not true, i am not gonna claim that i am a big dog cause it is not true also. My main complaint is that dut to the very hight ranged/meelee ratio (at least on my server) pvping for meelee classes sometimes is frustrating and anoying for the reasons explained before. We dont need a buff only some tweaks.

 

playing a demanding class it is more than ok for the most of us, actually it is intriguing. The problem revolves around the result/effort ratio which for mara is sgnificantly lower comparing to other classes

Edited February 21, 2012 by darth_billy

[Ilianor]

So you want Marauder more noob friendy? U serious?

 

If you have an 1on1 and you get knockbacked and your charge isn't rdy -> invis. Isn't that difficult.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ilianor

[Kibaken]

What's wrong with there being a difficult class to play, exactly? Ranged almost always has an advantage due to the sheer fact that, during a team fight, ranged barely get touched. We, as Marauders, need to run into a group of Republic ranged in order to pick off healers, etc, while our ranged cannot reach our targets to help focus.

 

From what I've seen, as a general rule of thumb melee classes are usually more difficult to play wisely in PvP than ranged ones. A completely crappy Frost Mage will **** on an equally crappy Rogue simply because the Rogue doesn't know how to work around the Mage's control. See what I did there?

 

And, for the record, we were not advertised as "the apex damage dealer." Nowhere, ever, was it stated Marauders were going to do the most damage. In fact, BioWare stated many times they made all damage across all classes/specs more/less equal in order to push the "bring the player not the class" ideal.

 

 

Also, pro-tip, next time you bring your ideas to the forums using a properly formatted post with proper English will give you a lot more credibility off the bat.

[darth_billy]

i dont want mara to be noob friendly i want him to be fair.i love my marauder but i am not stubborn to admit that they are underated even devs have admited in the forums that sentinels and marauders are very demanding and they are looking forward to balance them Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[Akfuia]

What is with the emphasis on Force Charge? If anything, it should just serve as a utility/opener, not a crutch. There are other abilities to close the gap between you and your opponent(s) depending on your talent spec. Making Force Charge on a shorter cooldown would not change anything besides heavily relying on it which what this thread is implying.

 

In case of "balance" for this class, what I suggest is to swap around of some of the abilities we get later on to earlier levels say, ie Intimidating Roar. Marauders starting out in the early levels have shortcomings and struggle a little bit before getting more of their core skills.

 

It seems there was not enough playtime done here and the initial impressions are really based on early levels which is fine, but not much of an issue later on. Marauders can hold its own with the abilities given to it. If a player consistently dies due repeatedly, it usually these reasons: zergings (typical), player mistakes and lack of skill.

 

I cannot stress how many times players including me die because of simple mistakes or choices made of not being able to defeat an opponent on the verge of death. It is the player's mistake, do not blame the class.

 

If I can even give some sensible advice to new users of the Marauders: read up on information, check forums, watch player videos of different specs, including others playing other classes and above all, time. Yes, time is needed to improve your skills and control of this class.

 

TLDR: Get time to learn on this class.

[Ilianor]

The only 2 things that would be awesome are:

 

- pushback (Why do juggernauts got this and Marauder not?!)

- stun (It's like I never use pommelstrike)

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ilianor

[Kibaken]

The only 2 things that would be awesome are:

 

- pushback (Why do juggernauts got this and Marauder not?!)

- stun (It's like I never use pommelstrike)

 

We really don't need Push; I'd like Pull back (we had it in beta) but would honestly settle for turning Savage Kick into a knockdown/stun.

 

Pommel Strike isn't usable in PvP anyway.

 

Pro-tip: Charge/Kick a normal mob and then Smash/Pommel Strike another.

 

That'll be two weaker mobs dead in 3 GCDs.

[darth_billy]

What's wrong with there being a difficult class to play, exactly? Ranged almost always has an advantage due to the sheer fact that, during a team fight, ranged barely get touched. We, as Marauders, need to run into a group of Republic ranged in order to pick off healers, etc, while our ranged cannot reach our targets to help focus.

 

From what I've seen, as a general rule of thumb melee classes are usually more difficult to play wisely in PvP than ranged ones. A completely crappy Frost Mage will **** on an equally crappy Rogue simply because the Rogue doesn't know how to work around the Mage's control. See what I did there?

 

And, for the record, we were not advertised as "the apex damage dealer." Nowhere, ever, was it stated Marauders were going to do the most damage. In fact, BioWare stated many times they made all damage across all classes/specs more/less equal in order to push the "bring the player not the class" ideal.

 

 

Also, pro-tip, next time you bring your ideas to the forums using a properly formatted post with proper English will give you a lot more credibility off the bat.

 

if you run into a group of ranged just by your self you are a dead man and you have limited chances to deal sigificant or kill someone cause you will be stunned at least once during your effort to get one for the team and most of the times you are not lucky enough to have unleash out of cd.

 

i totally agree on that latency/freezy image thing you brought up it is a major problem for every everyone , but for meelee clashes i believe it is disasterous.

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[darth_billy]

The only 2 things that would be awesome are:

 

- pushback (Why do juggernauts got this and Marauder not?!)

- stun (It's like I never use pommelstrike)

 

to be honest i dont want stuns i found them ... but i would to have simth that helps to utilize the environment for example push someone in the acid pool

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[darth_billy]

What is with the emphasis on Force Charge? If anything, it should just serve as a utility/opener, not a crutch. There are other abilities to close the gap between you and your opponent(s) depending on your talent spec. Making Force Charge on a shorter cooldown would not change anything besides heavily relying on it which what this thread is implying.

 

In case of "balance" for this class, what I suggest is to swap around of some of the abilities we get later on to earlier levels say, ie Intimidating Roar. Marauders starting out in the early levels have shortcomings and struggle a little bit before getting more of their core skills.

 

It seems there was not enough playtime done here and the initial impressions are really based on early levels which is fine, but not much of an issue later on. Marauders can hold its own with the abilities given to it. If a player consistently dies due repeatedly, it usually these reasons: zergings (typical), player mistakes and lack of skill.

 

I cannot stress how many times players including me die because of simple mistakes or choices made of not being able to defeat an opponent on the verge of death. It is the player's mistake, do not blame the class.

 

If I can even give some sensible advice to new users of the Marauders: read up on information, check forums, watch player videos of different specs, including others playing other classes and above all, time. Yes, time is needed to improve your skills and control of this class.

 

TLDR: Get time to learn on this class.

 

the emphasis relies on the fact that if my wish comes true it will still require skill to be utilized properly:o

[Kibaken]

if you run into a group of ranged just by your self youre are a dead man and you have limited chances to deal sigificant or kill someone cause you will be stunned at least once during your for to get one for the team and most of the times you are not lucky enough to have unleash out of cd.

 

Timing the use of your CC and knowing when to jump into the fight are integral to being a good player. Learning how to play a Marauder will help you get better at any class because you'll be that much more effective with timing your CDs and engaging targets.

 

For that very reason you'll find that most Marauders do poorly because they don't know how to do that. They either jump in over and over and end dead half the match or are too timid to engage when they think they should and therefore don't perform well damage wise either.

 

 

i totally agree on that latency/freezy image thing you brought up it is a major problem for every everyone , but for meelee clashes i believe it is disasterous.

 

wut?

Edited February 11, 2012 by Kibaken

[Akfuia]

I would actually prefer having both Pommel Strike and Savage Kick to be usable in pvp. Even in pve, not being able to use them on bosses/elites is mind-boggling. Feels like a waste of credits to train up on those two abilities.

 

As for the group encounters, almost any class will die if focus fired without popping a vanish skill. I ran into groups usually for distracting them or interrupting their dps to give the ball-carrier a few precious seconds to survive in a game of Huttball. How long I last from that outburst depends what cds I have available.

 

This also proves as an survival test to where you test yourself to see how long you can survive in 1vmore encounters. One of the goals in wzs is to survive right? Not just dps.

[darth_billy]

Timing the use of your CC and knowing when to jump into the fight are integral to being a good player. Learning how to play a Marauder will help you get better at any class because you'll be that much more effective with timing your CDs and engaging targets.

 

For that very reason you'll find that most Marauders do poorly because they don't know how to do that. They either jump in over and over and end dead half the match or are too timid to engage when they think they should and therefore don't perform well damage wise either.

 

 

[quote

i totally agree on that latency/freezy image thing you brought up it is a major problem for every everyone , but for meelee clashes i believe it is disasterous.

 

wut?

 

i thought that this "freezy image" thing you mentioned had to do with latency etc. obviously i ve got it wrong.

 

i know marauder is hard to play and thats why i picked him, because he is demanding ,straight forward and looks awesome:)

 

my problem is that a mara gets a smaller output comparing to players of same skill level but differrent class.

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[darth_billy]

I would actually prefer having both Pommel Strike and Savage Kick to be usable in pvp. Even in pve, not being able to use them on bosses/elites is mind-boggling. Feels like a waste of credits to train up on those two abilities.

 

As for the group encounters, almost any class will die if focus fired without popping a vanish skill. I ran into groups usually for distracting them or interrupting their dps to give the ball-carrier a few precious seconds to survive in a game of Huttball. How long I last from that outburst depends what cds I have available.

 

This also proves as an survival test to where you test yourself to see how long you can survive in 1vmore encounters. One of the goals in wzs is to survive right? Not just dps.

 

thats totally what i do on hutball too , i provoke groups to "farm" on so they 'll leave the ball carrier do his job.

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[darth_billy]

another things that bugs me is when you lfg for HM or raids often you are noone's 1st choise for 1 of the 2 dps slots and this is another fact that adds to my point that marauders are underated.

[BobaFurz]

if you run into a group of ranged just by your self you are a dead man and you have limited chances to deal sigificant or kill someone

 

 

And this is probably the main problem, the game favours too many ranged or hybrid classes and every G.I. Joe can hit you from a distance, but worse is that you fight in groups so it is too easy for other classes to concentrate quickly their ranged dmg on the melee class.

 

And if we talk about the possible dmg output from not only pure ranged but also hybrid classes, you just see what such melees have to soak up in a group fight.

 

When I take a look at the classes we have and what ranged abilities most have, you almost come to the conclusion that pure melees (none stealther) dont really fit into the gameplay, and especially the maurader. Its like playing a combat rogue without stealth and their abilities. The Maurader is good in dmg but lacks utilities and survival.

 

The developer of swtor have to make for sure certain changes, otherwise this game stays like it is and the masses will just play ranged classes or hybrids with lots of ranged abilities.

There is a reason why you see only few melees in every battleground and this has to change, that players get actually attracted by more close combat classes (non stealth).

 

This is STARWARS and lightsabers are King, in Swtor it seems these are the least used weapons and we see rather Guns.

 

So is this StarWars or GunzWars ?

Edited February 8, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Dystrucktion]

Here are the facts. As a melee dps you are screwed with the latency. They game has pushed us away from getting certain talents because pummel strike and savage kick does not work in pvp or on bosses otherwise seeping wound would be a great pick for annihalation. I belive that those abilities would help out. As far as PVP goes for now use your damn abilities. I do not know of any other marauder on my server that does the crap I do in PVP and that is support your damn team and stop worring about your dps. Huttball use your preditation to get your team to the ball first. Let the tank get the ball while you run up the ledge and use your stealth to get past people and set up. Then when you get the ball if you have preditation up great. Use it and use undying rage to get accross the fire and score. In Alderaan I can cap the left flag before the other side even gets there because of preditation. Use it. And use Berserk to help heal yourself and your team. In Voidstar you just have to pwn face. That is it. Use preditation after the second set of doors to get to the far console to drop the gate. Learn to play.

[darth_billy]

And this is probably the main problem, the game favours too many ranged or hybrid classes and every G.I. Joe can hit you from a secured distance, but the worse is that you fight in groups so it is too easy for other classes to concentrate quickly their ranged dmg on the melee class.

 

When I take a look at the classes we have and what ranged abilities most have, you almost come to the conclusion that pure melees (none stealther) dont really fit into the gameplay, and especially the maurader. Its like playing a combat rogue without stealth and their abilities. The Maurader is good in dmg but lacks utilities and survival.

 

i kind of agree with you. for example snipers have to avoid contact since they are medium armored and for this reason they have stuns as deffence mechanism

 

marauders are way too susceptible to cc,stuns, move impairing effects etc and the reason this is big issue is very simple , you stop dealing damge but you still sustain damage and practically this happens due the distance your opponet creates , so just like the sniper has much more than 1 trick to avoid me , if am supposed to have only 1 way tp close distance the distance between us (in a reasonable time) at least it should be effiecinent!

thats the whole point of ths post

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[darth_billy]

Here are the facts. As a melee dps you are screwed with the latency. They game has pushed us away from getting certain talents because pummel strike and savage kick does not work in pvp or on bosses otherwise seeping wound would be a great pick for annihalation. I belive that those abilities would help out. As far as PVP goes for now use your damn abilities. I do not know of any other marauder on my server that does the crap I do in PVP and that is support your damn team and stop worring about your dps. Huttball use your preditation to get your team to the ball first. Let the tank get the ball while you run up the ledge and use your stealth to get past people and set up. Then when you get the ball if you have preditation up great. Use it and use undying rage to get accross the fire and score. In Alderaan I can cap the left flag before the other side even gets there because of preditation. Use it. And use Berserk to help heal yourself and your team. In Voidstar you just have to pwn face. That is it. Use preditation after the second set of doors to get to the far console to drop the gate. Learn to play.

 

very well said , unfortunately most marauders are farmers and in addition to that they suck at farming too:mad:

[AcaciaDragon]

i kind of agree with you. for example snipers have to avoid contact since they are medium armored and for this reason they have stuns as deffence mechanism

 

marauders are way too susceptible to cc,stuns, move impairing effects etc and the reason this is big issue is very simple , you stop dealing damge but you still sustain damage and pratctically this happens due the distance your opponet creates , so just like the sniper has much more than 1 tricks to avoid me , if am supposed to have only 1 way tp close distance the distance between us (in a reasonable time) at least it should effiecinent!

thats the whole point of ths post

 

we are no more susceptible to CC than anyone else.

[Precurso]

we are no more susceptible to CC than anyone else.

 

Having own CC to counter enemy CC is being less susceptible to CC than someone with no CC.

[cosmov]

Here are the facts. As a melee dps you are screwed with the latency. They game has pushed us away from getting certain talents because pummel strike and savage kick does not work in pvp or on bosses otherwise seeping wound would be a great pick for annihalation. I belive that those abilities would help out. As far as PVP goes for now use your damn abilities. I do not know of any other marauder on my server that does the crap I do in PVP and that is support your damn team and stop worring about your dps. Huttball use your preditation to get your team to the ball first. Let the tank get the ball while you run up the ledge and use your stealth to get past people and set up. Then when you get the ball if you have preditation up great. Use it and use undying rage to get accross the fire and score. In Alderaan I can cap the left flag before the other side even gets there because of preditation. Use it. And use Berserk to help heal yourself and your team. In Voidstar you just have to pwn face. That is it. Use preditation after the second set of doors to get to the far console to drop the gate. Learn to play.

 

So,according to you, marauder is pure utility class and should stay that way?No damage,no kills,no medals?Less valor and commendations?Kindly stick your brilliant advice to where sun never shines.

[darth_billy]

So,according to you, marauder is pure utility class and should stay that way?No damage,no kills,no medals?Less valor and commendations?Kindly stick your brilliant advice to where sun never shines.

 

another good point just 1 medal for solo kill(s)

there is one medal for 75k total damage and the next total damage medal is for 300k!!!!

but you gain 3 medals if you guard/heal 10k(3k, 7k, 10k) witch is nothing!!!

especially guarding is completely effoertlees(at laeast to get the 1st 3 medals)

Edited February 8, 2012 by darth_billy

[Dystrucktion]

I was saying that there is a lot you can do to support your team. I am not saying to roll over and not do any DPS but I am saying you need to help out the team. Warzones is a team event not a solo evet.

[AcaciaDragon]

So,according to you, marauder is pure utility class and should stay that way?No damage,no kills,no medals?Less valor and commendations?Kindly stick your brilliant advice to where sun never shines.

 

Actually what he said is true. Warzones are a team effort. If you cant learn to play with your team, your only playing against them. Stop twisting his words, he told you of ways we can help out and make sure our team gets the wins. DPS is great and skilled players know how to help there team out and get top in charts.