Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP. But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP. I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out. And its not just JC's but JC:Sage and SI:Sorceror have a double benefit of pretty much their secondary focus statistics, power and alacrity literally benefit everything they do, their DPS, their HPS, their survivability with their defensive abilities....its really rather insane. Its not just the force users either. Healers in general are far tougher than they really should be. I'm not saying healers should be a speed bump but what exactly is the point of being a DPS class at all if you can be a DPS/Healer/Tank? Back a long long time ago, there was a term coined in RPG's called the "Tank Mage" which was a completely overpowered class combination, well TOR, for lack of a better word has "Tank Sages" but pretty much it applies any class with heals. People talk about Biochem being out of balance, but to be frank I don't see it, I'm 400 Biochem, my perma-medpack is a nice thing to have, but its literally a hail mary pass in regards to facing any geared class that heals. BioWare you've got a really bad case of Tank Mages. Seriously. Edited February 8, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jooji Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just because you're terrible it doesn't mean a certain role is overpowered. A battlemaster geared dps who's skilled wrecks me, a full champ commando healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just because you're terrible it doesn't mean a certain role is overpowered. A battlemaster geared dps who's skilled wrecks me, a full champ commando healer. Right thank you for being the first person to completely assume things about someone you don't even know. I'm not terrible, Healers are the alpha class in PvP, the only healers that aren't are terribads that don't understand their class at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You know I have to disagree with you because as a full seer sage I do no damage. Sure I can tank a little bit of dps from 1v1, but usually 1v2 I am toast anyways. Sometimes there are more than one seer sage in a warzone and if they are complementing each other then yes it is pretty op. Especially if they both pop salvation. However Seer Sages, and the sorc equivalent do very little damage. And yes it is very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaulTheConquerer Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Just because you're terrible it doesn't mean a certain role is overpowered. A battlemaster geared dps who's skilled wrecks me, a full champ commando healer. Dont mind this one. The operatives used the same excuse pre-nerf. " I only killed you in under 5 seconds in a single stun cause you are a terrible player". LOL. Get real. Sorcs/Sage and Healers make TOR PVP a joke. A joke on everyone who doesn't roll one of these. Edited February 8, 2012 by RaulTheConquerer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 You know I have to disagree with you because as a full seer sage I do no damage. Sure I can tank a little bit of dps from 1v1, but usually 1v2 I am toast anyways. Sometimes there are more than one seer sage in a warzone and if they are complementing each other then yes it is pretty op. Especially if they both pop salvation. However Seer Sages, and the sorc equivalent do very little damage. And yes it is very little. 1v2 1v3 1v4 thats a given situation of failure for everyone. Healers being able to heal through and survive the DPS of being STUNNED IN A FIRE PIT is a bit obvious something is wrong. I'm an 8/31/2 BH PT AP, I'm built for burning people down, I'm built for DPS, and I have no problem burning down any class that can't heal. I don't have enough stuns/interrupts/CC's to take down a geared healer. And in counterpoint I generally ignore Force Lightning, I can't ignore Project or Telekinetic Throw at all. Force Lightning tickles, Project and Telekinetic throw are horrifyingly damaging in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kai-Eurah-Tird Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 fire does 3.3k DPS. If the healer is guarded it'll only do 1.65k DPS, that is substantially managable. That's really the only reason I can think of that would allow anyone to survive in the fire. A Guarded healer is not someone you can take down without a lot of help as well. :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 1v2 1v3 1v4 thats a given situation of failure for everyone. Healers being able to heal through and survive the DPS of being STUNNED IN A FIRE PIT is a bit obvious something is wrong. I'm an 8/31/2 BH PT AP, I'm built for burning people down, I'm built for DPS, and I have no problem burning down any class that can't heal. I don't have enough stuns/interrupts/CC's to take down a geared healer. And in counterpoint I generally ignore Force Lightning, I can't ignore Project or Telekinetic Throw at all. Force Lightning tickles, Project and Telekinetic throw are horrifyingly damaging in comparison. You are wrong, seers cannot always heal while stunned. If a healer is giving you a hard time I don't know what to say except that they do no damage. Are you sure you are wearing armor? Because if so, and a healer is hurting you dps wise then.....WOW. Healers were meant to heal a-lot of damage, so I have no clue really what your problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVarrak Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Healers are supposed to be able to outheal a single DPS. What purpose does a healer have if he can't heal through one enemy? 2 skilled DPS can take out a healer, 3 mediocre DPS can take out a good healer, 4 bad DPS can take out a very good healer. 2 good dps and 1 very bad dps can take out a very good healer. Mix and match as you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Dont mind this one. The operatives used the same excuse pre-nerf. " I only killed you in under 5 seconds in a single stun cause you are a terrible player". LOL. Get real. Sorcs/Sage and Healers make TOR PVP a joke. A joke on everyone who doesn't roll one of these. I'm not really someone that calls for individual class nerfs, I mean theres stuff I think its farked but I learn to deal with it. Grav Round/Tracer Missile? Some people complain about that, I know how to deal with it, my interrupts and CC's can deal with people that use this one button wonder. Assassins and Shadows I can generally deal with too. It can go either way. Guardians and Juggs can be hard to take down but I can get them down if I use my CD's right. Smugs and IA's that aren't heal spec'd I can deal with 50/50 sometimes they win if they get me when my hold breaker is on CD, sometimes I get them. What I'm basically saying here is that its like....almost all the non-healing classes I feel like I'm on 50/50 footing with, and it can go either way depending on skill and luck and thats cool. But I just cannot put down a healer, Carbonite Spray, Quell, Electro-Dart....welp I'm on CD's...Quell again, welp, they healed and I get to start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebby Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) 1 v1 vs healer should be a stalemate. stealthers should maybe be the exception. but there are so many solo players.. wouldn't all of them be stealthers? Edited February 8, 2012 by Cebby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilbrood Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Maybe with coordinated burst and CC from your team you can kill a good healer...just a thought. Seriously laugh at how fast my resolve bar fills up when 3 people get on me when my troopers focus a healer they get dropped fast. Assault spec troopers too not grav spamming noobs lol. Edited February 8, 2012 by Evilbrood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Healers are supposed to be able to outheal a single DPS. What purpose does a healer have if he can't heal through one enemy? 2 skilled DPS can take out a healer, 3 mediocre DPS can take out a good healer, 4 bad DPS can take out a very good healer. 2 good dps and 1 very bad dps can take out a very good healer. Mix and match as you want. Uh. Okay so I need to allocate 1/3rd of my team for every healer on the enemy team? I'm pretty sure I'm going to run out of people to allocate to healers. And I'm generally Ops Leader in 50 bracket matches, I mark healers I tell people to focus them, even focusing healers requires inordinate investments of time and DPS output to get one down and if theres a big cross healing ************ going on, you won't get any of them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilbrood Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Uh. Okay so I need to allocate 1/3rd of my team for every healer on the enemy team? I'm pretty sure I'm going to run out of people to allocate to healers. And I'm generally Ops Leader in 50 bracket matches, I mark healers I tell people to focus them, even focusing healers requires inordinate investments of time and DPS output to get one down and if theres a big cross healing ************ going on, you won't get any of them down. There is no DR for interrupts in this game. 2 people rotating interrupts with their stuns can destroy any good healer unless they have amazing peels from their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 There is no DR for interrupts in this game. 2 people rotating interrupts with their stuns can destroy any good healer unless they have amazing peels from their team. I'm constantly interrupting when working a healer, anyone in the 50 bracket should be. Its still not enough. And I don't think it should require two people to take down every healer on a team. That makes every WZ match a simple equation. X/2 where X = Healers, so each healer on a team is the equal of two players, so where X Team 1 > X Team 2 = Team 2 - X amount of players. Or more simply put, if a team has 4 healers, and I have 2 healers, I lose by default because I don't have enough people to deal with the enemy healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jomps Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 And in counterpoint I generally ignore Force Lightning, I can't ignore Project or Telekinetic Throw at all. Force Lightning tickles, Project and Telekinetic throw are horrifyingly damaging in comparison. whats with that anyways? Different with inquisitor and sage is night and day. As operative I have much harded time dealing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnol Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) 1v2 1v3 1v4 thats a given situation of failure for everyone. Healers being able to heal through and survive the DPS of being STUNNED IN A FIRE PIT is a bit obvious something is wrong. The fire pit isn't instant death, nor should it be. It does a high amount of damage, that in addition to your damage will kill most players quickly. They aren't healing through the damage of the fire pit if they are stunned, only the bubble is helping to keep them alive (or another healer, or being guarded). I'm an 8/31/2 BH PT AP, I'm built for burning people down, I'm built for DPS, and I have no problem burning down any class that can't heal. I don't have enough stuns/interrupts/CC's to take down a geared healer. You have plenty of interrupts and stuns, you just must use them at the right time. With the Hitman talent your interrupt is down to 6 seconds with a 4 second lockout. Couple that with Electro Dart/Carbonize/Grapple and you have a long time of keeping a healer using sub optimal healing abilities. But if you really want to kill healers you should run a Shield Tech (to Jet Charge)/AP build, giving you yet another interrupt/gap closer. And in counterpoint I generally ignore Force Lightning, I can't ignore Project or Telekinetic Throw at all. Force Lightning tickles, Project and Telekinetic throw are horrifyingly damaging in comparison. Force lighting and Telekinetic Throw are essentially the same thing. One does Kinetic, while one does energy but both of those damage types are mitigated by armor. So if one is tickling it is a gear/spec issue and not a difference in ability. Project you can't do anything about as it is instant (well not quite instant, but you can't interrupt it). Edited February 8, 2012 by Bnol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jooji Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 So many bads... /sigh A good melee can make a healer quite ineffective for his team and/or kill the healer. If you're in crappy gear, no skill, or aren't in a PvP spec you shouldn't complain. A Shadow consular guildmate of mine can open up on me and take me to 25% health in under 10 seconds. He has a few pieces of BM gear. There's really no way I can recover from being at 25% health that fast. I pop my CDs, last a little bit longer, but he'll always kill me, as will a geared, skilled marauder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 whats with that anyways? Different with inquisitor and sage is night and day. As operative I have much harded time dealing with them. I'm not entirely sure but healing Sages are far more dangerous with Project and Telekinetic Throw than Healing Sorc's are with Force Lightning and Electrocute thats just plain out obvious. Is lightning considered energy damage and project kinetic? Cause the differences in PvP resistance for those two damage types are night and day actually. But if they're both considered "force damage" then they should be relatively equal given a mirrored spec between a Sage and Sorceror but they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talizzar Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Healers are supposed to be able to outheal a single DPS. What purpose does a healer have if he can't heal through one enemy? 2 skilled DPS can take out a healer, 3 mediocre DPS can take out a good healer, 4 bad DPS can take out a very good healer. 2 good dps and 1 very bad dps can take out a very good healer. Mix and match as you want. Wrong......... They should be able to outheal a Tank Not a pure dps class. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm not entirely sure but healing Sages are far more dangerous with Project and Telekinetic Throw than Healing Sorc's are with Force Lightning and Electrocute thats just plain out obvious. Is lightning considered energy damage and project kinetic? Cause the differences in PvP resistance for those two damage types are night and day actually. But if they're both considered "force damage" then they should be relatively equal given a mirrored spec between a Sage and Sorceror but they're not. That is odd indeed since they are both mirrored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jooji Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Wrong......... They should be able to outheal a Tank Not a pure dps class. Sorry. A healer should be able to out-heal a pure dps class while that person is attacking someone else. If that dps is attacking the healer and using interrupts, stuns, knockbacks, etc there's no way the healer can keep up assuming equal gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Wrong......... They should be able to outheal a Tank Not a pure dps class. Sorry. The problem is they don't. The op is greatly exaggerating things a bit. If you have a good coordinated team, it simply can take down a seer or the sorc equivalent in seconds. Given there is only 1 healer. 2 or 3 healers complementing themselves and you have another story. Bottom line is they do no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes_Arizona Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 So many bads... /sigh A good melee can make a healer quite ineffective for his team and/or kill the healer. If you're in crappy gear, no skill, or aren't in a PvP spec you shouldn't complain. A Shadow consular guildmate of mine can open up on me and take me to 25% health in under 10 seconds. He has a few pieces of BM gear. There's really no way I can recover from being at 25% health that fast. I pop my CDs, last a little bit longer, but he'll always kill me, as will a geared, skilled marauder. Yes I'm BM ranked and I'm a bad. Listen I don't like the idea of nerfing anything or any class, I enjoy good balanced PvP, my major issue and complaint has been expertise, which I think is stupid cause it just artificially makes things more difficult to eventually plateau out right back where everyone started before it was introduced. But this is not a case of OMGIRSUKMUSNERFCRY, healers are insanely overpowered. Trooper healers? Not so much, they can be tough, but Sages and Sorc's, Operatives and Scoundrel's are really far more problematic. I watched a IA Operative Healer literally walk a huttball from the ramp to the goal line, through a lit fire pit, being stunned and CC'd left and right (Which is why I couldn't grapple them down to the pit cause their resolve bar was full white constantly) with an entire team beating on it and it still scored the goal and had time to dance half a jig before dying. You can't tell me thats right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyu Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I hate to even really bring this up cause I love good healers as much as anyone else, and I don't want to see them not in PvP. But its just sickeningly obvious especially in the 50 bracket that Healers are the alpha class in TOR PvP. I realize that healers are dealing with a 30% healing reduction in PvP, but when I can double stun a Jedi Consular in a fire pit in Huttball and they can pop their bubble and heal through and somehow survive me, the fire and anything else and keep going, HPS in is heavily outweighing DPS out. Stopped reading there right. Decided you have no idea *** you're talking about or that you're full of crap. Or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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