Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[lordhaizen]

Just do it now

[Touchbass]

Here we go again.....

 

Now, I don't have any*snip* statistics,

 

 

Fixed that for you

[grueber]

Here we go again.....

 

Some of the things I encountered:

 

- People blatantly ninja'ing stuff.

- People blatantly leaving cause they didn't win a specific drop.

- People needing on stuff to improve the chance their friend or guildie receives an item.

- People leaving immediately after a particular boss, without notice or completion of the dungeon.

- People kicking or trying to kick others cause they caused a wipe.

- People kicking or trying to kick someone cause they hadn't been there before.

- People kicking or trying to kick others cause they felt that particular member was under-performing.

- People being rude because a particular member was inexperienced or under-performing according to their standards.

- People kicking or trying to kick someone so they can bring in a friend or guildie instead (either for a boss, lootdrop or just cause they prefered to have their friend/guildie with them).

- People leaving during combat or right before, purposely sabotaging the group.

 

I'm pretty sure there are more things that I encountered but that I haven't mentioned here. This is just some stuff that I can think of at the moment.

 

And how does any of the above not occur with a pug through Fleet? People already do alot of the above. Frankly if you show up to a group grossly undergeared or don't understand your role in a group then I'm not sure why the other three people are obligated to hold your hand through the flashpoint.

[Nitewolfe]

Here we go again.....

 

I am one of those people who did not like the implementation of the cross-realm LFD tool. I see people bringing up supposed facts about why a LFD tool is a good thing, or people advocating that people like me have no valid arguments to opose the implementation of a LFD tool.

 

Now, I don't completely opose a LFD tool. Clearly there are benefits to it, but if it's not done properly, it risks bringing so much negativity to the game aswell.

 

My biggest reason to opose a LFD tool is one that's been mentioned a lot before by other people. It simply allows people to act like jerks and get away with it. Now, I don't have any fancy statistics, but I can say with a big certainty that the majority of LFD groups I have participated in caused a negative experience for me. Not so much due to wiping, but people being plain rude or jerks.

 

Some of the things I encountered:

 

- People blatantly ninja'ing stuff.

- People blatantly leaving cause they didn't win a specific drop.

- People needing on stuff to improve the chance their friend or guildie receives an item.

- People leaving immediately after a particular boss, without notice or completion of the dungeon.

- People kicking or trying to kick others cause they caused a wipe.

- People kicking or trying to kick someone cause they hadn't been there before.

- People kicking or trying to kick others cause they felt that particular member was under-performing.

- People being rude because a particular member was inexperienced or under-performing according to their standards.

- People kicking or trying to kick someone so they can bring in a friend or guildie instead (either for a boss, lootdrop or just cause they prefered to have their friend/guildie with them).

- People leaving during combat or right before, purposely sabotaging the group.

 

I'm pretty sure there are more things that I encountered but that I haven't mentioned here. This is just some stuff that I can think of at the moment.

 

Now, I get that not everyone may experience things like these, or that some simply experience them less than myself. But there comes a time where you have to weigh to pros and cons against oneanother. Afterall, this is a game we play, and we play it to have fun. Or atleast, that's why you should be playing.

 

And for me personally the above experiences definately added a lot of frustration and negative experiences to my gameplay. I'll even go as far as stating that I'd rather have to look for a group for an additional thirty minutes if it means I wouldn't have to go through the above things.

 

But again, it doesn't mean that I completely oppose a LFD tool. It just has to be implemented properly. A game is supposed to be fun experience. Enabling people or not holding people responsible for acting like total jerks "just cause they probably won't ever group with you again" is a bad thing, and it will certainly ruin more people's experience than improve it.

 

As i said before its a interesting that every anti lfd person seems to have the same complain of bad groups..

Maybe just maybe they need to look at themselves. Since it is clear they seem to be the common factor in the bad groups.

[Arell]

Life is about acceptable risk, those things you mentioned are more then fine if it means I can get a group in short amount of time. Dungeons aren't hard enough for me to sweat and I can usually carry a bad person or 2 depending on my role.

 

I am well aware of that. But the problem I have with it is that it happens more often than appreciated.

 

Like you, I am used to carrying pretty much most parties (dpswise atleast). I don't run them for gear as I raid anyhow. But it still disgusts me how rude people can behave just because there's no real penalty.

 

And it isn't just me, plenty of times I hear people complain about it on ventrilo, when they are pugging something on alts and they experience things like that. Like I said, it happens quite often.

 

LFG is not for you, end of story

 

all the stuff you call "negative" and "scary" i call laughable

 

I wouldn't really call it scary. ^^

 

However, I am someone who treats people like I want to be treated myself. So you won't see me doing stuff like that.

 

I'm also well aware that no forces me to use the tool if it was there. Though I can also imagine or relate to other people having the same bad experiences. And if you would be in a position where you can for example only play 1-2 hours a day and for 2-3 consecutive evenings you'd run into stuff like this... Well, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be that appreciated. ^^

[Nitewolfe]

SWTOR is nothing like world of warcraft or rift its new and built from foot to head,so please stop with the wow and rift connections, anyway i agree to the lfg tool because i hate not lvling siting in a station waiting for someone to start a group or someone to join my group.

 

Actually there is nothing new in swtor. Even the great VO that is swtors claim to fame has been done before in other mmo's. Swtor just took it a few step further.

If you boil away all the star wars theme and all the fantasy themes in other mmo's we are left with them all being the same and swtor is no different.

 

They are all build around leveling a character via experience gains.

They all have quest

They all have the same basic UI (hotbars maps minimaps.. ect)

They all have close to the same basic combat mechanics (some are trying to break the mold but have yet to achieve it)

Most of theme follow the same themepark linear progression line.

 

You could literally copy the starwars theme over most mmo's out there and not notice a difference.

 

Now this is not a bad thing. Most of us play this genre because we LIKE those things. It also makes transition from one game to the next easier since it feel familiar.

 

BW did not rewrite the book when they make swtor.

[navarh]

However, I am someone who treats people like I want to be treated myself.

guess what? same here

but for some weird reason in your case it is good and in our case it is bad…

 

example,how this:

i perform at max or near max of my ability and expect same from others

any different from yours

i don't ninja-loot, and expect same from others?

 

 

if you want an answer

 

here, catch it

 

selfishness

Edited February 11, 2012 by navarh

[BlueSkittles]

The Q&A is out and while they don't address LFG, they do address cross-server Warzones:

 

"Simoon: Will you be adding the option to choose what Warzone you enter a queue for?

 

Gabe Amatangelo: Not until we introduce cross server queuing. If we were to allow players to choose their Warzone before they could queue across servers, then it would negatively affect how often every player would see a Warzone – and for every player that loves a certain Warzone there is another player that hates it. The population would end up divided by their Warzone choice, negatively affecting the time it would take for a specific Warzone to become available for anyone. With cross server queuing we will still have a preference to match players of the same server, but those players who choose specific preferences such as these will likely end up in a match with players in the larger Wargroup."

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

What did I tell ya. They're going to have "Wargroups" like WoW has Battlegroups and I'm sure when they announce their updated LFG tool, we'll have cross-server LFG based on the Wargroups.

Edited February 11, 2012 by BlueSkittles

[Arell]

guess what? same here

but for some weird reason in your case it is good and in our case it is bad…

 

example,how this:

i perform at max or near max of my ability and expect same from others

any different from yours

i don't ninja-loot, and expect same from others?

 

 

if you want an answer

 

here, catch it

 

selfishness

 

I never said anything remotely suggesting that in my case it's good and yours not. :S

 

I stated why I feel a LFG tool shouldn't be implemented UNLESS IT'S DONE PROPERLY. And by properly I meant a system that does not promote bad behavior, in the form of not penalizing it.

[Nitewolfe]

The Q&A is out and while they don't address LFG, they do address cross-server Warzones:

 

"Simoon: Will you be adding the option to choose what Warzone you enter a queue for?

 

Gabe Amatangelo: Not until we introduce cross server queuing. If we were to allow players to choose their Warzone before they could queue across servers, then it would negatively affect how often every player would see a Warzone – and for every player that loves a certain Warzone there is another player that hates it. The population would end up divided by their Warzone choice, negatively affecting the time it would take for a specific Warzone to become available for anyone. With cross server queuing we will still have a preference to match players of the same server, but those players who choose specific preferences such as these will likely end up in a match with players in the larger Wargroup."

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

What did I tell ya. They're going to have "Wargroups" like WoW has Battlegroups and I'm sure when they announce their updated LFG tool, we'll have cross-server LFG based on the Wargroups.

 

Sweet good news for us! Seems they are weaking there stance against cross server!

[SomeDudeIsanub]

Sweet good news for us! Seems they are weaking there stance against cross server!

 

Bioware is not comprised of idiots. They see a change is needed.

[Touchbass]

Playing on Shadow Hand server, people looking for tanks for MH's but only allowing geared tanks. Destroys communities or destroys your ability to be an elitest? You decide!

[Nitewolfe]

I never said anything remotely suggesting that in my case it's good and yours not. :S

 

I stated why I feel a LFG tool shouldn't be implemented UNLESS IT'S DONE PROPERLY. And by properly I meant a system that does not promote bad behavior, in the form of not penalizing it.

 

The only penalty for bad behavior needed is /ignore!

Once you ignore some one they can have no effect on you. I still stand by that! Any desire for more control over a player after you have ignored them is a desire for control and vengeance on them for treating you in a way you didnt want them to.

People only have power over you if you let them effect you. Clearly you have left these people effect you deeply.

I wont state that i have never had some one win a item i also wanted. I will state that i didnt let it effect me negatively because i know for a fact that that item will drop again at some point! If the lose of a virtual item in a game effects you this deeply then maybe you need to look inwardly at yourself.

[Touchbass]

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

^, this is going to be HUGE for leveling and finding instances. Unfortunately it's too late for that part of the game. It'll help at 50 though. Looks like we are winning battles all over the place.

[Arell]

The only penalty for bad behavior needed is /ignore!

Once you ignore some one they can have no effect on you. I still stand by that! Any desire for more control over a player after you have ignored them is a desire for control and vengeance on them for treating you in a way you didnt want them to.

People only have power over you if you let them effect you. Clearly you have left these people effect you deeply.

I wont state that i have never had some one win a item i also wanted. I will state that i didnt let it effect me negatively because i know for a fact that that item will drop again at some point! If the lose of a virtual item in a game effects you this deeply then maybe you need to look inwardly at yourself.

 

Nah, it's not that. Like I said, I'm never the one that's being kicked or whatever. But I still see it happening to others in groups I come across. Someone died or does low dps, and I see a popup "<random player> is trying to kick <random player>....".

 

Or another example, I'm in a group with 3 from one guild and another random. An item drops that the random dude needs and one from the "guilded group". Then the other 2 guildies from that group roll need on it aswell, effectively giving their guildie 75% chance to win the item, cause they can trade it to him.

 

It's just ****** behavior like that which just puts me off. You don't see me trying to kick all four people cause I'm doing four times their combined dps, or leaving the group because of it.

 

There is a certain risk you expose yourself to when you join a pug, whether it be through LFD or simply by spamming general/trade/lfg channel. Things like wiping, inexperience, individual performance, same people needing same loot, etc. While I am well aware that rudeness or ****** behavior can be part of this aswell, I personally would like to see the chances for those two eliminated, cause games should be fun afterall.

 

Though I guess you could argue that people have different definitions of fun... ^^

 

Maybe the big problem is me being a carebear. ^^

 

EDIT: Just to add, regarding the ignore function. I don't know how many times it happened to me when I tried to use it, and it said "Player not found" or "Player does not exist". Maybe they actually managed to fix it properly now though, haven't played WoW in a while now.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Arell

[Naethion]

The Q&A is out and while they don't address LFG, they do address cross-server Warzones:

 

"Simoon: Will you be adding the option to choose what Warzone you enter a queue for?

 

Gabe Amatangelo: Not until we introduce cross server queuing. If we were to allow players to choose their Warzone before they could queue across servers, then it would negatively affect how often every player would see a Warzone – and for every player that loves a certain Warzone there is another player that hates it. The population would end up divided by their Warzone choice, negatively affecting the time it would take for a specific Warzone to become available for anyone. With cross server queuing we will still have a preference to match players of the same server, but those players who choose specific preferences such as these will likely end up in a match with players in the larger Wargroup."

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

What did I tell ya. They're going to have "Wargroups" like WoW has Battlegroups and I'm sure when they announce their updated LFG tool, we'll have cross-server LFG based on the Wargroups.

 

As this post implies, we will most likely have Same-server priority LFD tools. and I say PRIORITY. Not outright same-server

[BlueSkittles]

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

^, this is going to be HUGE for leveling and finding instances. Unfortunately it's too late for that part of the game. It'll help at 50 though. Looks like we are winning battles all over the place.

 

Yeah saw that, too. They so need Dual Spec like yesterday. Been having fun playing a healer in Warzones but trying to level as one is not quite the same. And if they add the LFG tool we've been asking for, I would love to be able to switch specs based on what mood I'm in or if Healer queue times are less than dps (which they will be, of course).

[LGalucard]

I think the reason bioware is not picking up this as a serious problem , is the fact that pvp is picking up the slack. PVP is a viable alternative to gear and even with nerfs and tweaks it has received still offers the easiest path to gearing up for raids.

 

the rng for hard modes drops are terrible , the pve currency drops is terrible compared to the cost of the pieces of gears. PVP not only gives you a decent chance to get champion gear with each bag its also a lot faster to buy bags with valor/merc than with pve currency. Pre 50 pvp gives you a great deal of xp a decent amount of cash and matches are about 15 min long, which is almost 1/4 of the average dungeon run.

 

Also unlike wow the pvp gear while not optimal is pretty damn decent for pve.

[Touchbass]

Yeah saw that, too. They so need Dual Spec like yesterday. Been having fun playing a healer in Warzones but trying to level as one is not quite the same. And if they add the LFG tool we've been asking for, I would love to be able to switch specs based on what mood I'm in or if Healer queue times are less than dps (which they will be, of course).

 

One of the reasons why Apple is so successful is they produce products that people want when they want them. Apple noticed that tons of people were purchasing Blackberries for non-business uses because they are 1) status symbols 2) high quality 3) functionality

 

Apple essentially hit all three of those and produced something unique that appealed directly to their consumers and sales skyrocketed and RIM is in big trouble because of it. Further they realized there was another niche market for people wanting a more functional laptop for easier access than carrying a latop top around. People shunned the idea at first but Apple is laughing to the bank on them.

 

What I am getting at is SWTOR needs to start releasing things prior to them being a problem in the community, I know they are backlogged now but if they don't get on these things soon they're going to see a massive drop off

[Touchbass]

I think the reason bioware is not picking up this as a serious problem , is the fact that pvp is picking up the slack. PVP is a viable alternative to gear and even with nerfs and tweaks it has received still offers the easiest path to gearing up for raids.

 

the rng for hard modes drops are terrible , the pve currency drops is terrible compared to the cost of the pieces of gears. PVP not only gives you a decent chance to get champion gear with each bag its also a lot faster to buy bags with valor/merc than with pve currency. Pre 50 pvp gives you a great deal of xp a decent amount of cash and matches are about 15 min long, which is almost 1/4 of the average dungeon run.

 

Also unlike wow the pvp gear while not optimal is pretty damn decent for pve.

 

Yeah, it's just not worth it do the PvE content half the time with a better option that is available. Same thing happened in WoW, people completely abandoned a lot of the pve options and used pvp to gear up for pve as entry level gear.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Touchbass

[BlueSkittles]

One of the reasons why Apple is so successful is they produce products that people want when they want them. Apple noticed that tons of people were purchasing Blackberries for non-business uses because they are 1) status symbols 2) high quality 3) functionality

 

Apple essentially hit all three of those and produced something unique that appealed directly to their consumers and sales skyrocketed and RIM is in big trouble because of it. Further they realized there was another niche market for people wanting a more functional laptop for easier access than carrying a latop top around. People shunned the idea at first but Apple is laughing to the bank on them.

 

What I am getting at is SWTOR needs to start releasing things prior to them being a problem in the community, I know they are backlogged now but if they don't get on these things soon they're going to see a massive drop off

 

Interesting that you used Apple as an example. When the first iPhone came out, it didn't even have copy and paste, nor half of the features it has now. But look how far they've come, especially with the addition of Siri for the iPhone 4S. Now if Bioware can just do that for the MMO genre (especially when it comes to LFG), we might still have a hit on our hands. With Blizzard going the way of RIM. Well, not that bad, Blizzard still makes other good games, but as far as MMO's go, yes.

[grueber]

Yeah, it's just not worth it do the PvE content half the time with a better option that is available. Same thing happened in WoW, people completely abandoned a lot of the pve options and used pvp to gear up for pve as entry level gear.

 

I'm just sick of the repetitive leveling progression that is present in every toon. PvP is more entertaining. I only go to the worlds now to do my class storyline and heroics if there are people interested. That and flashpoints.

[Lerthan]

yeahyeah

 

and then your dream-world get hit by objective reality

where majority of people dont need "friends" they need players to play with and have fun

 

So in effect you’re taking the stance that we can’t come up with a system that takes care of those concerns while actually still providing the functionality of the random LFG?

 

The only penalty for bad behavior needed is /ignore!

Once you ignore some one they can have no effect on you. I still stand by that! Any desire for more control over a player after you have ignored them is a desire for control and vengeance on them for treating you in a way you didnt want them to.

People only have power over you if you let them effect you. Clearly you have left these people effect you deeply.

I wont state that i have never had some one win a item i also wanted. I will state that i didnt let it effect me negatively because i know for a fact that that item will drop again at some point! If the lose of a virtual item in a game effects you this deeply then maybe you need to look inwardly at yourself.

 

/ignore fails to work cross server and you are still forced to group with said players if they come up for the que at the exact same time you do. If /ignore actually worked cross server and prevented you from being tossed in a group with that person then yes I could see it. As it stands I am forced to go thru the instance with the player I don’t want to or leave and wait the cool down time to find another group. I am penalized for somebody else being a D-Bag and me not wanting to group with them anymore.

As I have stated many times before this can be fixed with a proper LFG tool.

 

For you maybe. I was on a top tier raiding guild during TBC and pretty much 'ran things'. I have more fun and freedom playing the game now that I don't have a bustling friends list of people cause it suits me. I like logging on and not having all my friends whipsering "hey man tank this for me", some people like that, I use to like that but it's not for me anymore.

 

My X-LFD experiences are great, sorry we all love the tool and you don't, you need to grow up cause it's ok to hate something that others like without putting it down.

 

And you can’t have a system that addresses the concerns that people have yet still provides the function that you’re looking for why?

 

You still fail to answer this simple question.

 

Glad you had great experiences with it, your experiences however where not everybody’s and we can and should come up with a system that addresses the concerns while still providing the functionality that we want.

 

Two systems, one that randomly throws folks together. This system needs to take into account player choice by either A. Allowing players at the end of the instance to say I want to group with this guy again or no I don't. If you say no I don't then you are not grouped with that player anymore period. (aka the /ignore but now it works cross server as well) or by showing the players who they are being grouped with and allowing the option to either opt out of the group or Majority rules vote kick the other player. ( I prefer option A personally)

 

System 2, works hand in hand with system 1. A system where you can select the flashpoints/operations/heroics on planets that you want to run and the role you fill. You are then placed in an LFG channel and you can see the others on the list and form your groups this way. It allows the players that don't want to use the Random system something else to use. It allows you to put together groups for the heroics on the planets. It gives the new players a chance to interact in a group setting with the other players and make those contacts they will need to get into the guild that fits them. This system can also work cross server as well btw at least for the Flashpoints.

 

Both systems working together provides a variety of effects. First and foremost the population is allowed to govern its self. If 90% of the population does not want to group with a player now there not forced to. This encourages players to not be D-Bags as there is a consequence if they are. It allows those who do not want to use the random system another tool to use other then spamming chat and sitting in fleet for hours trying to put together a group. It provides that much needed way to form groups for things other than flashpoints.

 

Right there you have something that addresses the largest concerns that folks bring up while still providing the FULL FUNCTIONALITY of a random LFG tool. Why is that so hard to accept for people? That a system that takes care of both needs, is actually better the alienating one sect or the other.

[Touchbass]

Interesting that you used Apple as an example. When the first iPhone came out, it didn't even have copy and paste, nor half of the features it has now. But look how far they've come, especially with the addition of Siri for the iPhone 4S. Now if Bioware can just do that for the MMO genre (especially when it comes to LFG), we might still have a hit on our hands. With Blizzard going the way of RIM. Well, not that bad, Blizzard still makes other good games, but as far as MMO's go, yes.

 

I used Apple because it didn't need those features when it came out cause the market didn't require those things I was equating RIM to SWTOR with their lack of evolution The only company close to Apple is Blizzard but that wasn't the implication

[Touchbass]

Right there you have something that addresses the largest concerns that folks bring up while still providing the FULL FUNCTIONALITY of a random LFG tool. Why is that so hard to accept for people? That a system that takes care of both needs, is actually better the alienating one sect or the other.

 

Sorry I haven't really been able to address your post(s), it's been really insane with home life and work and I didn't want to just scan it and put 2 cents in. I still haven't read it fully but hopefully I'll get a chance at work tonight if the God's be good.

 

I've been advocating for many past lives of this thread for intra server (like our PvP queue system) for people who want to play within the server and a cross server for those who wish to play cross server who don't have the requirements of online friends at the present moement.

 

The only thing we need to be cautious about is making the intra-server too appealing cause the whole point of a cross server tool is for faction/population imbalance and playesr off peak times. We have to help them with a cross server otherwise there is no point of even building a cross server.

 

I do like what the person you quoted is proposing, it's getting us there. Forgive me if I sound less compassionate towards a compromise because this thread gets derailed into a flame war sometimes which I unfortunately can get caught up in since I'm only human.