Every patch that doesn't have a LFG tool is costing you players

[grueber]

Here's the compromise: BW introduces a fully automated, cross server, queuing system for group content. People that don't like keep on making groups through chat channels, friend lists and guilds. People who like it, use the tool. Everyone's happy.

 

It seems simple, doesn't it?

 

The fact that the anti-LFD group are too busy trying to dictate how everyone else should play to not understand this boggles the mind.

 

They are too terrified that their guild, buddies, and friends will ditch them. Really what other answer is there?

 

Not that they bother to address the hypocripsy that people in guilds tend to chat and group only with guild members. If they really wanted a "community" bioware should just nuke guilds and force everyone to be in a big "community".

[Hurkan]

Many people within in this thread are against 'cross server' LFD's. I think a same server LFD could be ok if done properly.

 

I'm just going to throw this out there, but to keep people from sitting in fleet all day, why not limit the LFD tool a a 3 or 4 time use a day with a 18 or so hour CD? I mean, this will give someone a chance to complete some dailies and get some gear and at the same time would keep people from hanging out idle in fleet all day.

 

just a thought.

 

Not sure I understood that one... but sure, do it for pvp queues also and see what happens :-)

 

I'm in favor of a server only channel/tool, people that praises the current LFG tool must understand that if it's not being used as it should then it's not working, there is something wrong with it, call it people laziness, whatever.

 

The pvp tool it's the exact same tool that's needed for pve, an icon that you can click, select flashpoint and join queue solo or as group, server only. If the current pvp tool where you can level without visiting planets or seeing the content is not destroying the server community how the hell an identical pve tool will be able to do it?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Hurkan

[Telendria]

According to you.

 

According to others there is a handful of reasons not to.

 

To claim your way is the only right way is thick headed and naive.

 

there is no reason not to. Anything against LFD tool is basically "WoW has it, SWTOR must be different" and vague "it destroys server communities" which is as ridiculous as expecting Bioware to fix unabandonable quests in next two months. WoW community was destroyed long before LFD tool...

[XOrionX]

They are too terrified that their guild, buddies, and friends will ditch them. Really what other answer is there?

 

Not that they bother to address the hypocripsy that people in guilds tend to chat and group only with guild members. If they really wanted a "community" bioware should just nuke guilds and force everyone to be in a big "community".

 

What a dense and completely off-base statement. My guild would be fine with or without the tool. In fact I can guarantee the majority of guilds would feel the same way.

 

Perhaps you should make some more freinds. =)

 

 

Some of us here are trying to debate the actual topic and find some common ground. But people like you keep coming in and stomping your feet like a babies who aren't getting thier way. If you want to have a constructive conversationon the topic then by all means, hang around!

[Bazouk]

bottom line is it's lfg tool or sit around for hours trying to find a group the manual way. as much as anyone may dislike the lfg tool because of the PEOPLE IN IT, the tool itself makes the game worth my time. period. it isn't the tool that causes problems, and the problems it causes are only perceived by people who think that the particular color of a pixel has done something to affect them negatively.

 

when my sub runs out, if ther is still no lfd, my assumption is that the game will still also be missing a great many of the other features it currently lacks. not because of any philosophy for or against the particular feature, but because BW is too incompetent to properly implement it. that's the reason the game is currently so stripped down, and it will continue to be the reason the game causes strife between fanbois and critics.

 

you guys can love this game all you want. all the way until you don't have to pay for it anymore. which is coming soon.

[Moricthian]

1- Your experiences are just as irrelevant as those who say that can find groups easily.

 

2- Just because its "optional" does not magically make it good.

 

3- Jerks are but one of the many problems that LFD brings.

 

4- And you are confusing something you don't like to do with something you think you don't have to do.

 

5- All you have done is offer the same anecdotal evidence along with "facts" that do not in any way shape or form have any influence on the merits of anything.

 

1. I agree with you. You got my point...good. So you admit bringing up a bunch of qq of how people were mean to you in WOW dosen't actually have anything to do with whether or not LFG is a good idea?

 

2. True, but you have yet to prove why it isn't good. Though the fact that is optional means you have very little to lose if you they put one in.

 

3. So we've established that jerks alone isn't a good enough reason to stop an LFG tool. What are some of the other negatives?

 

4. That didn't make any sense. I don't like to sit around the fleet forming groups/whispering strangers...true. I don't think I should have to do it...true. I am advocating for a system that would allow me to skip this woeful process. Are you saying I should have to do this? Why? Make your case.

 

5. I wasn't actually making an argument as to why LFG is a good idea. I was simply pointing out that your evidence doesn't logically lead to your conclusion. Having bad personal experience means you shouldn't use a LFG tool. It doesn't mean nobody should. That's all I'm saying. You've already admitted this anyway (see point 1)

[IrisCorven]

Here's the compromise: BW introduces a fully automated, cross server, queuing system for group content. People that don't like keep on making groups through chat channels, friend lists and guilds. People who like it, use the tool. Everyone's happy.

 

It seems simple, doesn't it?

 

The fact that the anti-LFD group are too busy trying to dictate how everyone else should play to not understand this boggles the mind.

 

I'm sorry, but not using it hampers you even more when it's released. Don't wanna insta-teleport into a flashpoint, with a bunch of players you'll NEVER see again, so there's no reason to speak/befriend/coordinate with? It takes the MMO aspect out of the MMO. It's bad enough 90% of the content from 1-40 can be done solo. Lets not turn the other 10% of content into NPC Co-op missions. Cause that's what'll happen.

 

Same crap that plagued WoW; No one wants to run a WoW instance the old way anymore, so there's no actual speech between players required. Just do your thing, and hope the other players don't suck. That's not how an MMO should be; They were made "massively multiplayer" to allow thousands of people to play together. Not sit in the party doing standard attack rotation, without speaking a word.

[Scorchess]

People here seem to be ignoring the actual problem underlying all of this. If there are 100 people on your fleet (which is just a number I'm taking from my own fleet right now, Republic side) then it should be possible to get 4 of them together for a group, right? Why is that so hard?

 

In other words, why are people seemingly uninterested in flashpoints at any level? I know I am interested, group play is the biggest reason I play MMOs. But of course that's different for everyone. Still, what are those other 99 people so busy with they can't join me for a flashpoint? I think that's the issue that needs to be understood.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Scorchess

[Vlaxitov]

You all have to understand those who passionately advocate for auto grouping tools are more than willing to weather any negative side effects that come with such a tool because having it is that important to them.

 

You're never going to convince a passionate pro lfd guy that he is better off without it and he doesen't care if you're worse off with it.

[Bazouk]

People here seem to be ignoring the actual problem underlying all of this. If there are 100 people on your fleet (which is just a number I'm taking from my own fleet right now, Republic side) then it should be possible to get 4 of them together for a group, right? Why is that so hard?

 

In other words, why are people seemingly uninterested in flashpoints at any level? I know I am, group play is the biggest reason I play MMOs. But of course that's different for everyone. Still, what are those other 99 people so busy with they can't join me for a flashpoint? I think that's the issue that needs to be understood.

 

you have 100 people on your fleet republic side. you are the exception to the rule. there are 13 people in fleet on empire side on Axial Park right now.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Bazouk

[Yuuj]

I can't express how amusing I find this entire line of discussion to be. An auto LFG tool is not going to be the solution people think it is going to be.

 

Blizzard introduced an LFG tool that had DPS waiting for over an hour at it's launch. They added incentive to use it, and the wait time went down a bit further. That still had DPS waiting between 15 and 45 minutes.

 

The next solution was to add a bag of spoils for tanks and healers who queued up when there were not very many tanks or healers in the queue system. Queues dropped down to less than ten minutes for DPS.

 

What did the DPS do? Start complaining. It isn't fair that tanks and healers get that and we never do! It isn't fair that there are more DPSers than tanks and healers! Blizzard should do something to give players incentive to play tanks and healers.

 

...Like add bags with drakes inside of them for tanks and healers who use the LFG tool? =|

 

LFG tools are a slippery slope.

 

With that said, I'm not opposed to one. I'd love to see one be implemented in the game. Unfortunately, if you look at Blizzard's LFG tool for World of Warcraft you should be able to identify that it is an ongoing project. Once Bioware decides to implement one, they will have to commit to tuning it for patches and expansions to come.

[TeoHTime]

Nearly all my friends hated the thing, but nearly all used it. Because we, as humans, are idiots.

 

 

Idiots, and also prone to inappropriately assign causes and effects. You got into some groups with arseholes, but a LFG tool doesn't create arseholes, it only groups people together. Given a server-wide LFG system and a function that prevents you from being grouped with people on your ignore list, the people you will get from a random LFG queue are no better or worse than anyone you would pick up from your first efforts /1'ing in Fleet. You then have the option of friending people who you like playing with, inviting them to your group, and then using the LFG queue to fill the rest of your group up again. If you don't do that, and consequently get randomly matched with people you find less tolerable, it's not the fault of the tool.

 

Of course, in a game with a large enough active playerbase who are all willing and able to run instances, the chances are you won't meet the same people very often. In a sense, this can mean that your actions in a group are less important because you are more anonymous. Again, this is nothing to do with the method of forming a group, it's a function of the size of the player pool. The sort of community situation where you know all the people regularly raiding, know their reputations and their history, doesn't exist in a successful modern MMO that makes group content accessible. It also never exists for the casual player that doesn't spend a large amount of time online. The lack of this type of community is nothing to do with the method of grouping people together, it's to do with the size and activity of the playerbase.

 

This is when we get to the nostalgia trip. What most people are longing for are not 'the days before LFG tools'. They are longing to re-live a certain time where they were a very active member of a small community of people running content together, where everyone knew eachother and reputations mattered. This situation can only exist if you spend a lot of time online performing an activity that a relatively small number of people take part in, all of which also spend a great deal of time online. It doesn't exist in succesful modern MMOs, because modern MMOs like to make content accessible to their playerbase at large. So instead of only 50 people at max level actively running a certain level of content, MMOs now strive to make that number 500 or more.

 

The nostalgic moment people are searching for won't return, it is now replaced with the guild system and raid content. It wouldn't be as good as you remember it anyway, nothing is as good the 2nd time around. People like to blame the end of these good-old-days on new changes such as LFG systems, but really it's a sign of MMOs succesfully getting more people into this content, and making the endgame community much larger. The larger community isn't as cozy, but the majority of people who never got to experience your golden days due to time constraints are now much happier that they actually get to run dungeons with people.

[Bazouk]

Blizzard introduced an LFG tool that had DPS waiting for over an hour at it's launch. They added incentive to use it, and the wait time went down a bit further. That still had DPS waiting between 15 and 45 minutes.

 

 

sounds fantastic. an hour is better than NEVER.

[TheFluke]

If you're super concerned about community in an MMO, you probably spend a lot more time in them then others do. If the majority of your social network is online, you probably don't spend a ton of time offline.

 

This equates to having a lot more time to find groups, slowly progress through the game, and spend hours waiting patiently for a group or finding an extremely active guild.

 

And no, I'm not trying to be abrasive. I'm suggesting that people hyper sensitive about shaking the communities' foundation are the ones that can afford to ditch tools of convenience and spend hours a lot of us don't have.

 

I'm not asking for easy-mode, macros, etc. I'm asking for a device that helps me connect with people without spamming general chat or hoping the local PUG I finally put together aren't a bunch of tools.

 

To some of you, that's lazy and / or casual. To me, it's efficient and a better use of my time.

 

So at the end of the day: L2Adapt, to be honest. It'll be implemented eventually, just like it was in Rift before ToR. You're not the majority anymore, and this sure as hell isn't Everquest.

[DigitalPrime]

that's your opinion. but when the button lets me click, and i can legitimately call upgrade, i'm clicking the button.

 

So, in every situation you feel you have a right to roll on loot. So sad, learn some MMO etiquette.

 

Also, please post your server and toon names. So everyone one of us can put you on ignore!

[XOrionX]

Not sure I understood that one... but sure, do it for pvp queues also and see what happens :-)

 

I'm in favor of a server only channel/tool, people that praises the current LFG tool must understand that if it's not being used as it should then it's not working, there is something wrong with it, call it people laziness, whatever.

 

The pvp tool it's the exact same tool that's needed for pve, an icon that you can click, select flashpoint and join queue solo or as group, server only. If the current pvp tool where you can level without visiting planets or seeing the content is not destroying the server community how the hell an identical pve tool will be able to do it?

 

Yes, I agree with everything you said. Perhaps I should have elaborated more...

 

 

But I honestly think that implementing a CD on the number of queued FP's you can do in a day would keep players from standing idle in fleet all day.

 

Why not limit the number of FP queues to the number of FP's required to complete a daily? Then players are getting thier loots, and gaining commendations for loot progression while still being encouraged to not stand in fleet all day.

 

The method I described above would make the most sense for players levels 1-49. At level 50, grab a guild and start running HM's and Ops, and when they aren't running anything hop in queue and run a few with a PUG.

Edited February 7, 2012 by XOrionX

[Eldrenath]

1. My experience with LFG tool in WOW was great.

 

2. Nobody is forcing you to use it. You can continue grouping with your guild/friends.

 

3. Most of us feel that running into the occasional jerk is well worth the accasability LFG tools provide.

 

4. You're confusing tedium with challenge. Many people find the current system tedious. We'd rather enjoy the challenge of actual flashpoints rather than the tedium of preparing for them.

 

5. LFG tool offers you choice. All you've offered as reason not to included LFG is personal experience/anecdotal evidence. Considering your personal experience will stay the same if you don't use LFG (as you will stil have control over who you group with), your evidence leads to the conlusion that you shouldn't use the LFG tool, not that it shouldn't be implemented at all.

 

True, all I've offered is individual perspective and opinion. Which, if you have failed to note, is all you too have offered.

 

Second, nowhere did I say in that post that I "enjoyed the challenge" of finding a group. So I have no idea where you dredged that particular critique from.

 

Finally, my point is that cross-server LFD tools destroys community and heightens douchebaggery. And it DOES impact people that choose not to use it by way of the fact that since nearly everyone will use it (because of how simple it is), it will make finding on-server PUG groups much more challenging. Or, as you (rightly) put it, tedious. If LFD were introduced, I imagine you'd see this:

 

Player 1: LFG for any HM FP. Healer here. PST if interested.

Player 2: Just use LFD n00b lulz!

 

So, to go through your above points:

 

1. That's your opinion, and I believe you. Doesn't make my experience any more or less valid.

 

2. Incorrect. Because people usually choose the easiest path rather than the better one, because people are idiots (myself included). Just because something can be made easier doesn't mean it should. In point #2, you completely ignore the social ramifications X-server LFD tools carry. In your opinion, those things don't matter. In mine they do.

 

3. True. But again, this is your opinion, not a fact, and based on your personal experiences. My personal experiences were different. In my experiences, "occasional jerk" tranlated to "jerks 50%+ of the time". Again, you say my points are less valid because they are substantiated only by opinion and personal experience. This is another of your points, substantiated only by opinion and personal experience.

 

4. I never said anything about liking the challenge of finding a group. I never even inferred it. I said only the negative aspects of what I find to be the result of a LFD tool. So this point confuses me, since I never said anything like it.

 

5. Your opinion is that LFD offers a choice. Mine is that it does not. It makes nearly all people wanting to PUG use the LFD tool. I readily admit that. However, I believe that this has significant negative downsides for the server as a whole. Among which: 1) Heightens doucebaggery. 2) Since everyone uses the LFD, it becomes much more difficult to make friends with players on your local server, thus reinforcing the cycle of using the LFD tool. 3) Completely removes social aspects of group play. Since you'll never group with these again, there's no point in chatting at all. MAny groups (in my experience) dont even want to discuss tactics.

 

So, in sum, I respect your opinion but it is not based on facts any more than mine is. Your opinions seems to be based on your thoughts and experiences, just like mine is, and therefore no more inherently valid.

[Moricthian]

People here seem to be ignoring the actual problem underlying all of this. If there are 100 people on your fleet (which is just a number I'm taking from my own fleet right now, Republic side) then it should be possible to get 4 of them together for a group, right? Why is that so hard?

 

In other words, why are people seemingly uninterested in flashpoints at any level? I know I am, group play is the biggest reason I play MMOs. But of course that's different for everyone. Still, what are those other 99 people so busy with they can't join me for a flashpoint? I think that's the issue that needs to be understood.

 

You're oversimplifying the issue.

 

You need 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS. Not only that, you need a persont to fill these roles that are withint he level range of the flashpoint. That cuts the available pool down to 10-20 Out of that number you need to find 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS. On top of that you need to find people who are willing to do the flashpoint. That limits the pool of players even more. Let's say (which is often the case considering what people have reported on these boards numerous times) there are no tanks on the fleet LFG a group.

 

At this point you can fly to level appropriate worlds and see if questing tanks or interested. Or you can just continue to quest or que for PvP as getting a group together takes so much more work and effort yet the return of fun is about the same as PvP and questing.

 

People, understandibly, don't bother.

[Scorchess]

you have 100 people on your fleet republic side. you are the exception to the rule. there are 13 people in fleet on empire side on Axial Park right now.

That's great, but an entirely seperate issue and completely irrelevant to my post.

[mjbig]

Oh boy, here we go again, the LFD masochist trolls coming out again.

 

I want to wait for 5 hours to maybe get in one group, so that we can maybe get a single dungeon completed. zzzzzzz

[Bazouk]

 

I'm not asking for easy-mode, macros, etc.

 

 

I'm not asking for macros. I'm demanding them.

[DigitalPrime]

sounds fantastic. an hour is better than NEVER.

 

Well, reading your loot etiquette maybe your name has got around your server and you have been put on ignore by the population.

[Haroshia]

You all have to understand those who passionately advocate against auto grouping tools are more than willing to weather any negative side effects that come with not having such a tool because not having it is that important to them.

 

You're never going to convince a passionate anti-lfd guy that he is better off with it and he doesen't care if you're worse off without it.

 

See how I dismissed your argument there?

 

Seriously though a server wide (as in not cross server) LFD tool would do nothing but quell the general chat LFG spam, and allow the content to be more accessible by people who only have a few hours to play per night. I fail to see how this is a bad thing, and cannot understand why it's not a good compromise.

 

The anti-LFD argument seems to be "IT KILLS COMMUNITY" either by A) grouping you with strangers or B) letting people run dungeons instead of leveling via content. In the case of A) if it was server locked you'd still have the community, and in the case of B) how does this affect you at all?

[Andryah]

OK, rather then beat each other over and over with odd body parts and insults, lets do some strawman compromise idea generation.

 

So here is a strawman for a compromise solution to the passion on both sides (I'm not married to the idea, I'm just trying to think and discuss constructively):

 

A compromise solution would be for Bioware to

 

1) select a subset of the servers and declare them to be cross server LFD enabled. If you want cross server LFD, you play on these servers only. Only these servers are wired for cross-server. You want the feature, you roll on these servers.

 

2) Don't penalize a level 50 player having to re-roll, allow players a one time (one time only, one way, no take backs so think before you leap) character transfer to a server in the declared subset.

 

3) phase it in over some reasonable period of time, so as to mitigate silly thoughtless server jumpers who will then regret the move and open ticket after ticket pleading to "take back their mistake".

 

4) charge a nominal fee for the ability to make the one time move, as that will encourage people to think before they leap. You put $$ in the equation and suddenly people start to be more thoughtful and cautious about their choices.

 

It gives those that simply must have the feaure the option. It preserves communities that do not want to be exposed to the negative consequences of cross server LFD. It puts the burden of move and use on those that actually say they want it, and leaves others unimpacted. It separates the two camps and gets them off of each others throats.

 

Personally, I would suggest they use the chronically light load servers, as this will help solve a populations distribution problem as well. AND it develops the mechanics to support character moves (under very restricted circumstances, a la WoW, NOT the Rift free for all mess).

 

In addiiton, Bioware can adjust server sets over time to meet population demands of the "two camps" in the population. Personally, I think the cross sever LFD sement will be the smaller population and will suffer higher subscriber attrition, for several reasons that are characteristic of the demographic.

 

Contribute/add please.......

Edited February 7, 2012 by Andryah

[Varghjerta]

there is no reason not to. Anything against LFD tool is basically "WoW has it, SWTOR must be different" and vague "it destroys server communities" which is as ridiculous as expecting Bioware to fix unabandonable quests in next two months. WoW community was destroyed long before LFD tool...

 

I do think some people in here do actually wants MMo's to take a step back and take a look at the sitaution at hand instead and what some things does