PvP completely separated from PvE

[Pokerface]

Hello my fellow SWTOR Players and greetings from Germany!

 

Here is a suggestion which COULD END the war between the PvP and PvE Faction. I know it is VERY DIFFICULT to accomplish, but I also belive that with it, the BIGGEST PROBLEM in the MMORPG World might be solved and GONE FOREVER!!!

 

Dear Developers, you see for yourselves that the PvP Community keeps calling for nerfs on all classes except their own class. When you decide to make class changes because of PvP, you seem to forget, that the Nerf also has a VERY NEGATIVE Effect on PvE, which... well nuff said sucks. Here is a possible way to solve it.

 

-several class changes because of PvP should have ZERO IMPACT on PvE

-several class changes because of PvE should have ZERO IMPACT on PvP

 

Why do I suggest this? I will try to elaborate. PvP and PvE simply don't get along and the PvP Community will ALWAYS cry for nerfs for all classes, because they inflict a lot of damage in PvP, but forget that the nerf has a negative effect in PvE, and the PvE Guys like me who have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with PvP have to suffer.

 

So yes.. YOU MUST find a way to separate those 2 elements from each other. THEN and ONLY THEN we will have THE BALLANCE we all desire. So, what say you? Good Idea or bad Idea?

 

Thanks for reading and greetings from good old Germany!

 

Pokerface

Edited February 7, 2012 by Pokerface

[Navakai]

How does tuning numbers to balance pvp, have a 'negative effect' on pve?

 

You have zero damage meters, and no combat log. Your energy management effectively stays the same.

 

 

Without access to a combat log, any and all arguments of this nature are invalid.

[Korrawi]

Dear Pokerface.

 

Personally i dont think that would work good and i will try to explain why.

 

Most MMORPG are based aound the player versus player combat (this with exeption of the lords of the rings online.)

 

If you would take away the PVP from the PVE servers you give.

 

1. the highest level players nothing else to do then raids and other boring stuff.

 

2. you take away part of the lore of Star Wars where Empire and Republic fight over resources.

 

3. you probably make people leave to pvp orientated servers and that way the PVE and RP servers could die out.

 

Sincerely.

Dor'oneth

Republic Commando Sanctum of the exhalted.

[MajikMyst]

Dear Korrawi,

 

Largly your post is incorrect and I will try to explain why..

 

PVP has absolutly nothing to do with lore.. I can fight countless imperials and not fight a single person..

 

I really wish people would stop thinking that MMO's are all about PVP.. They are not.. Very little of an MMO is dedicated to PVP.. Sure it would depend on the MMO.. But by in large, PVP is a very small part of the game.. Most of this game and most other MMO's revolve around PVE.. Zones to level in, our stories, End game, and of course character creation.. All have nothing to do with PVP.. There is well over two thirds of the game right there..

 

Being max level and doing operations isn't boring in my view.. PVP to me is boring.. Dealing with rude people that want to spend their time stroking their egos.. If I want to PVP, I will play MW3, Crysis, or some other game that is all about online PVP..

 

I don't see why people can't just PVP in their PVE specs?? The 2nd poster is right.. Without recount or some kind of access to the combat logs.. We have nothinig to go by as to what spec build is good and what talent build is good..

 

The worst thing any MMO can do is to seperate PVE and PVP.. I don't think there should be any special PVP gear.. Or at least not different stat wise.. A PVP stat simply doesn't belong in an MMO.. It creates an inbalance in the game and gives some an unfair advantage.. I am also tired of people thinking they can raid in PVP gear.. If they didn't take the time to raid and get the gear, why should I carry them through and get them free loots?? Are they going to carry me through and get me free PVP loots?? Not hardly..

 

What they need to do is make your PVE spec all you have.. And balance both PVP content and PVE content based on that.. Sure you can have PVP gear.. But stat wise it should be identical to PVE gear.. Just a different look perhaps.. But then when you do decide to do those boring Ops, at least you will have some gear for it..

Edited February 7, 2012 by MajikMyst

[FoxNemhauser]

How does tuning numbers to balance pvp, have a 'negative effect' on pve?

 

You have zero damage meters, and no combat log. Your energy management effectively stays the same.

 

 

Without access to a combat log, any and all arguments of this nature are invalid.

 

 

it's really simple...

 

having a stun on a monster in PVE that lasts 60 seconds is completely fine, having a stun on an enemy compation that lasts 60 seconds is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

 

other example - rakata biochem goodies were OK for pve, but were seriously OP for pvp... what was the result? nerf of those goodies for PVP and PVE (and the nerf was only needed for PVE).

 

 

 

just look at those two different mentalities:

 

LotrO is mostly a PvE game (well, there is some dueling and the monsterplay but the main content is pve) and when some character is buffed then people playing other characters would say: "cool, you are more efficient now, this helps our fellowship/raid a lot"

 

but in games where pvp is heavy (rift, wow, swtor) people just scream "nerf the other classes!!!"

[VelnikSP]

Fox's post was mangled, but essentially correct. In a game where PVP is a central focus, characters need to be excessively tuned, balanced, corrected, rebalanced, spindled, folded, twisted, bent, and homogenized until, in any given fight between two similar characters, the outcome is in doubt.

 

In PvE, "Balance" is utterly irrelevant between characters. If you require a healer, a dps, and a tanker, the fact that the DPS does more damage is simply an accepted and recognized fact. It would be stupid to throw the healer and the DPS at each other and expect the healer to come out on top.

 

Frankly, this homogenization is the reason why empire and republic are 'mirrors' of each other, and frankly I get sick of it, and I think it is ruining the whole star wars immersion system... but while PVP uses the exact same system as PvE, 90% of your 'tuning time' is going to be wasted trying to appease people who simply cannot be appeased, and ignoring real, serious PvE issues.

[Bladedakoda]

I don't really get why MMO's don't make a PVP talent tree that comes into affect when you toggle PVP. Or just change the way spells work in PVP vs PVE.

 

Edit: on a PVP realm the PVP tallent tree would be on all the time and switch to PVE when you raid and so forth.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Bladedakoda

[Pokerface]

I hope they will find a way to do it, then the biggest problem in the mmorpg world is gone forever and both sides are happy.

[Nitewolfe]

eq2 got it right many years ago in that game every ability has separate effects for pve or pvp targets.

[der_mawel]

rift introduces the role system wich was really nice. u coul choose between up to 5 different spect when u were out of combat. there were only 4 classes with 8 different skilltrees of with you had to choose 3 for each spec. its nice but doesnt exaclty make balancing easier.

 

there are several basic problem in swtor:

 

for most classes there are 3 (often 2) considerable specs to chose from. thats not a lot especially as hybrid specs are for most classes justs nonsence.

 

another problem is the handling of instant abilities which seem to have an hidden activation time and someteimes even get interrupted. so its difficulst to argue about abilities which do not work as intended.

 

the game is simply not balanced atm, there are useless specs, useless item sets, unbalanced factions and an exrem overhang of inquisitors/consulars combines with neraly no snipers/gunslingers(because their main class mechanics is bugged to the edge of unplayability) and a continuously decreasing number of melees generally and sentinels/marauders in particular.

 

also healers are too weak in pvp due to the 30% debuff and rediculous costs of healing abilities combined with extreme and hard to avoid dps AND burst of mercs/commandos and sorcs/sages

 

most of the dmg in pvp is not effeted shield offhand of tanks, elemental and internal dmg reduction is not linked to any stat ingame.

 

well at least there is no lifeleach or offensive despell. and there is also no disorientation which causes charachters to fall through the ground.

[Medallian]

IDK I think it is to easy just change the gear around that way you don't have to mess with to much also the introduction of a combat log would be valuable for players and devs so players can give proper views of pvp, as far as pve goes i feel the game is balanced very well, but you know ppl will always want nerfs in pvp, so like I said change the gear around make ppl work for what they want, it will add more drive gor the pvpers to get the good gear

[Saitada]

eq2 got it right many years ago in that game every ability has separate effects for pve or pvp targets.

 

 

This basically. Have each skill work differently. If you are fighting a Mob, skill does X damage. If you are fighting a player or player companion skill does X-% damage (or X+% depending on how they want to do it).

 

it shouldn't be that hard for the game to determine if what you are fighting is a Player or player companion, and if you are fighting an NPC.

 

Then they can tune skills according to what you are fighting, player or mob.

 

It solves the issue of PvP based skill nerfs or adjustments, affecting PvE and vice versa.

 

~Saitada

[Chandraa]

now here is my thinking upon this situation, the main error that Bioware has neglected to recognise is the fact that most people who complain about how much damage another class has over another is in fact a very minimal amount of players, those who dont actually have the best PVP gear vs those who have it, those who do have well over a 10-15% bonus to damage and damage reduction, those who dont have the gear end up getting swept under the rug as if they dont exist. to help balance this situation anyone who has battlemaster (also known as Rank 60) should be placed in a bracket all their own, just simply because should the entire team on the other side have all battlemaster geared groups and the other side doesnt, the game is roughly a complete loss to those who dont have the gear in the first place, i for one consider this the most logical fix however, it wont happen simply because there wouldnt be enough people to pvp at that point.

 

therefore what i propose is this, a nerf to the expertise gear so that there is a noticable difference but not so much as that people who dont have the super high end expertise gear have no chance at defending themselves, when a consular can hit you for 3k crits with a rock throw and then follow up with their slow effect that ticks for 3k with a chance to stun you or vice verse, there is an obvious impossibility of recovering, especially if there are two of them doing it to you.

 

also instead of nerfing (for those who dont know a nerf is a visible if not drastic reduction to a class characters abilities, a negative and usually destructive issue) classes you should be balancing them, balancing doesnt necissarily constitute a reduction of damage like most people seem to think, instead what i propose is this, fix the break free ability to make all classes immune to being re-controlled for 4 seconds, this should fix many issues pertaining to CC-locks and preventing certain people from being stun-locked/controlled for longer than 5 seconds at a time,

 

another thing is the fact that most melee dps have a major issue in pve maintaining damage. in this situation there are many fixes to accomodate characters who like to be up-front in battle, you can either increase the average damage they do, or you can provide a means to alleviate their necessity to be super close range and instead allow them to be 10 meters away from the mob in question(or provide additional skills) to provide more consistant damage, both means will provide melee dps in pve and pvp a way to actually have a fighting chance against ranged players and give them more time to get away from not only game mechanics, but also provide a more stable dps range for their respective classes.

 

for ranged dps, they are right where they need to be, for smuggler and agent classes they need a significant revamping of multiple trees, concealment does effective spike damage, which is their class in general. however they lack the energy to provide stable dps and end up slacking midway through a fight, this also goes for most any of the agent trees, since i have no smuggler i cannot say yes or no about it.

 

healing operatives need either a major boost to energy regeneration or a skill that provides a 15% reduction to all healing skills energy requirements. they are by far the weakest healing class in the game and need major amounts of gear in order to compensate for it since after 4-5 healing spells they are at 50% energy and due to diminishing energy regens they begin to falter after big hits in peoples health.

 

if any bioware employees read this please review and submit to devs perhaps these

suggestions can make your game better overall and provide community satisfaction across the board.

[Nippon]

I get where your going with this op, but the simple fact of the matter is that PVP should never ever ever have been activated or implemented full stop on any PVE server, there are servers that cater to PVP, the PVP gear should have been SOLELY for the PVP servers...

 

EVERY player in this game has the ability to roll 8 CHARACTERS on EACH of the 50+ servers, that means you have potentially 400 characters....

 

If you want to PVP do it on a PVP server

If you want to PVE do it on a PVE server

 

End of story...

 

As long as any PVP is on a PVE server there will always be imbalance, It should never have happened, should be removed and separated, and the 2 play styles completely kept apart.

 

On a side note and this is a response to anybody complaining about this.....If you think you are some sort of PVP god on a PVE server you are not, you are in fact a Care bear who has no doubt entered a PVE server with the sole intention of PVPing because you know blatantly, you will not have the competition you get on a PVP server.

 

If PVP is to be included on a PVE server, then PVP gear should be completly removed from those servers...At the end of the day EVERY player should have the same end game potential....And if you cant PVP using PVE gear.......THEN GO TO A PVP SERVER.

 

I have PVE'ed myself to level 50, have all the best gear available to me from PVE, yet im totally and uterly out of the competition in PVP on my server simply because the PVP gear exist's.....Why should my end game PVP be affected because of Gear related to PVP players........Ive done my grind, ive leveled my character on a PVE server using PVE gear......Why when i go to PVP at 50 am i completely borked up against players with Full EXPERTISE that means i have no effect against them.

 

In my opinion if you decided to roll a PVP character for PVP rewards on PVE server, then unlucky, go out and get your PVE gear, and then re grind your PVP character on a PVP server.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Nippon

[der_mawel]

I get where your going with this op, but the simple fact of the matter is that PVP should never ever ever have been activated or implemented full stop on any PVE server, there are servers that cater to PVP, the PVP gear should have been SOLELY for the PVP servers...

 

EVERY player in this game has the ability to roll 8 CHARACTERS on EACH of the 50+ servers, that means you have potentially 400 characters....

 

If you want to PVP do it on a PVP server

If you want to PVE do it on a PVE server

 

End of story...

 

As long as any PVP is on a PVE server there will always be imbalance, It should never have happened, should be removed and separated, and the 2 play styles completely kept apart.

 

On a side note and this is a response to anybody complaining about this.....If you think you are some sort of PVP god on a PVE server you are not, you are in fact a Care bear who has no doubt entered a PVE server with the sole intention of PVPing because you know blatantly, you will not have the competition you get on a PVP server.

 

If PVP is to be included on a PVE server, then PVP gear should be completly removed from those servers...At the end of the day EVERY player should have the same end game potential....And if you cant PVP using PVE gear.......THEN GO TO A PVP SERVER.

 

most players want both pvp and pve, you suggestion wpuld force them to lvl at least 2 chars up to 50 which is borign when you do it he second time and takes time many players do not have.

 

i like the fact that pve gear is useless in pvp but thats somehow unfair as the pvp gear ist not that bad in pve.

 

the major problem with the pvp gear is that anyone can accuire it solo quite easily wheres pve gear is only accuired if u effectively play pve which u can only do with a group.

 

this fact point directly at a pvp issue: no teamplay is required to gera up in pvp, u can farm your gear without winning a single wz. this is an mmo, solo players should be punished by the mechanics, teamplayers should get a benefit in both pve and pvp.

[Canmore]

nippon is completely correct , if i played the game as intended on my PVE server my gear should be good enough to pvp when i choose and compete , if i had rolled a pve toon on a pvp server my opinion would be completley invalid .

 

the quicker bioware removes all pvp vendors from pve servers the better

[Nippon]

most players want both pvp and pve, you suggestion wpuld force them to lvl at least 2 chars up to 50 which is borign when you do it he second time and takes time many players do not have.

 

i like the fact that pve gear is useless in pvp but thats somehow unfair as the pvp gear ist not that bad in pve.

 

the major problem with the pvp gear is that anyone can accuire it solo quite easily wheres pve gear is only accuired if u effectively play pve which u can only do with a group.

 

this fact point directly at a pvp issue: no teamplay is required to gera up in pvp, u can farm your gear without winning a single wz. this is an mmo, solo players should be punished by the mechanics, teamplayers should get a benefit in both pve and pvp.

 

Ive highlighted 2 of your points as part of my total disagreement with PVP gear being on a PVE server...

 

I can grind up from lvl 10 to 50 in PVP without ever moving from Fleet....Ever, how do i know this ???

 

Im doing it on a PVP server with my lvl 21 Bounty Hunter....So far ive left twice to do my class quests simply to get my companions that aid me in my crafting, OTHER than that i have no reason at all to EVER leave FLeet while leveling in PVP....

 

At end game I will be maxed out in PVP (valor, gear) have comparable gear to TOP END PVE gear and not once will i have ever participated in a PVE Heroic, Flashpoint's or Operation's.....

 

As a PVE Artifice player i have to do a HARD-MODE Flash point to POSSIBLY obtain a TOP crafted item such as a RAKATA cube .....

 

Yet on my PVP character on the PVP server, i will possibly have the entire end game gear handed to me as i tick 50........

 

I have grinded PVP to level 21 so far and already have a full set of level 20 PVE gear, and waiting for me at 50, 5 champion bags with the possibility of the chance to obtain one of those cubes.....Im not even playing this character, i do it once a day for an hour or two, yet at 50 I will no doubt be better stated than a player who has grinded to 50 in PVE.

 

This IMHO is totally wrong.

 

Remove the PVP vendors and EVERYTHING attached to them from PVE server's....My opinion is that if you roled a character for PVP gear on a PVE server then tough, you lose it all, use your PVE gear to PVP and be on the same level as everybody else.

 

PVP gear should be abolished from PVE servers....End of story

 

And if the Developer's and players want PVP on PVE servers the classes/quests/gear and and ultimatly PLAYABLE characters and areas, be completly seperate from PVE content.

 

Its been proven in many other MMO's that mixing PVE with PVP rewards, playstyles and gear DOES NOT WORK...

 

LOTRO has it kinda right with a completely separate playing class and gear system for PVP, although that is still borked as the FREE PEOPLES are still playable by PVE players, while monsters are a completly seperte PVP specific class, levelled entirely in PVP that requires constant class tuning to balance the both....

 

If the Devs want both to exist, then make PVP characters for PVP, and leave PVE as it is.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Nippon

[Canmore]

No idea who the bright spark mmo developer who thought mixing pve and pvp was good , because the guy opened a huge can of worms that has never been reconcilled and caused rifts between the two communities thats never been properly healed

 

when everquest was in its golden yars the two system where completely seperate and you know what there was NO arguements between pvp and pve players , we had our seperate shards and we all played happily in our seperate worlds , it wasent till world of warcraft came along that a significant wound was opened .

 

bioware would do well to go back to the old method of seperate servers with there own rule sets and just maybe the bickering between pvp and pve players will stop . atleast in swtor .

[Pokerface]

There is the proof. Those 2 elements simply don't get along. They must be separated from each other. If they don't manage to find a way to do it.. then we will have the same chaos as in XoX.

 

Sad but true.