Are Sith really evil?

[LystAP]

A good way to see if they are evil is go out in the real world and act like a sith. Treat each person you come in contact with as if you were a sith lord. See how far that gets you. Then come back and let us know how it went.

 

Although you'll rarely find the more "genocidal Sith" mentality out in the real world that's not behind bars; you'll find a lot more of the Darth Baras and Palpatine types, especially in democracies and capitalistic economies.

 

Just because a efficient and experienced politician or corporate executive purposefully redirects their language and actions towards vagueness when they communicate to others doesn't mean they're bad, it's just how they get things done. Sure some people inevitability get harmed in the process, but you can't satisfy everyone without sacrificing something.

Edited February 23, 2012 by LystAP

[Gore_Fiend]

What's 'evil'? Two-dimensional definition.

 

I've seen plenty of dark side choices that could be pretty well defined as morally *good* from my stand point; letting a corrupt politician's corruption go undiscovered because you believe they genuinely *are* doing good now, and it would do no good to disrupt that for the sake of abstract justice, or putting a blaster bolt through the brain of an imperial prison vivisectionist... or several more, for that matter.

 

Generally speaking, the Sith Empire's moral philosophy is further from the one 21st century human culture aspires to as 'right', than the Republic's philosophy is.

 

The Sith philosophy is about embracing passion, letting it fuel and drive you, whereas the Jedi philosophy seems to be largely about denying, channeling, restricting that.

 

Now, from several points of view, the Jedi philosophy's just plain *wrong*- passion is a far greater fundamental of human nature than compromise and control.

 

To a certain extent, it feels as if Jedi thought is influenced to a massive amount by fear of the Dark Side- not so much that they deny that a Sith could be influenced and driven by positive passions, to be a great force for good... and, after all, wasn't it *love* for his son and *hate* for the man who'd destroyed 90% of his whole life and was just about to destroy the last 10% that gave Anakin the strength to kill Palpatine? The Emperor was killed by a Sith using his passion and making what would almost certainly be a dark side choice- and I doubt anyone would call that an evil act, even though "Kill the old man" would probably be at least 50 DS points in game.

 

The Jedi's fear seems to be the- quite understandable- one that it tends to be the stronger, more violent passions, that predominate... so they try to block out and screen off *all* passion, even including those that could be to their benefit, and for a good cause, to stop the dam from bursting, and letting emotion rule them.

 

Neither philosophy is good or evil. The Jedi philosophy is appallingly repressive and self-destructive- look at Anakin again. Had the force been balanced, had Palpatine's Sith teachings been well-meaning rather than self-serving, and had Mace Windu not been so much of a bully, Anakin could well have grown up to become an amazingly gifted and heroic light-side Sith, if people had taught him to *moderate* his passions, rather than shut them up and be ashamed of admitting they existed.

 

./agree with all of this.

 

And for my 2 cents, if you have read the Revan book:

 

 

The Jedi Council went into his mind and took away all of his past memories. Basically mind ****** him into a puppet for their purpose. Evil?

 

 

If you haven't, Revan quotes that even the Council is blind by living in their old ways versus understanding that passion and emotion can be used if taught how to encounter it, but instead they force their padawans to cut themselves off.

 

 

Revan brought Bastila back from the Dark Side USING the emotion of LOVE. Revan was even strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the Emperor of his day.

 

 

Sith Culture is a harsh environment but so is the Mandalorian Culture and to a certain extent, the Republic Culture. If you are not a force wielding Knight, then you do hard labor and other lowly jobs.

[Ivannils]

True, though it starts with "Peace is a lie" so it stands to reason they'd prefer perpetual war.

 

I don't believe that all Sith are evil, especially in this time-line, but at the very least, most seem self-centered and only concerned with their own goals and ambitions. Which would not make them all that different than people we know in real life. I'd say the difference is what they are willing to do to meet there goals -- murder, steal, destroy?

 

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion." This line most likely does not refer to world-wide-peace, and the declaration that they prefer war, it more likely is stating that "inner peace is a lie." meaning that its wrong to go celibate and repress your desires, emotions, and passions. etc.

 

Being a harsh culture is not necessarily evil, Sith believe that the weak have no place in society, because they are useless baggage, and to be honest, its true. If the superhero didn't have to constantly save the damsel in distress, he would be much better off. Now, it isn't right to just go simply killing them off, but it doesnt change the fact that what they are doing is in fact, furthering their society to a higher level.

 

There is no such thing as a solidified evil, and good. One mans justified killing, may be anothers evil manslaughter. One mans "good" mercy may cost the life of thousands (some may consider this evil, because that man could have prevented thousands of lives from ending.)

 

Good and Evil are subjective to each individual, neither the Republic or Empire are evil. In every civilization, there are good, and evil people inside of it.

 

This is my 0.02c.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Ivannils

[Lightmaguz]

Love is 1 of the strongest emotions there is, probably the most. The fact that the Jedi virtually forbid it would at least in theory make it all the more appealing to a Sith.

 

Obsessive passion isn't love.

 

 

"Unlike the Jedi, who were famous for using the light side of the Force, darksiders drew power from raw emotions like anger, rage, hatred, fear, aggression, and passion."

 

How can any of those things be considered good? Especially when their passions the only possibly redeeming feature are usually power over others. Sith are Darksiders... I think it's a great disservice TOR did to allow them to be "light" attuned when the skills still involve lightning(negative energy), choking the life out of people, rage, viciousness and anger all around.

[LyriaFrost]

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion." This line most likely does not refer to world-wide-peace, and the declaration that they prefer war, it more likely is stating that "inner peace is a lie." meaning that its wrong to go celibate and repress your desires, emotions, and passions. etc.

 

This is my 0.02c.

 

I've usually viewed the "peace is a lie" statement to mean something similar, in that they strive to NOT have "inner peace". They're always up in arms about SOMETHING.

 

Sith aren't "annoyed", they're "I will destroy your entire flipping PLANET!" pissed off.

Sith aren't "sad", they're "anyone who comes within a hundred feet of me will be forced to endure the catastrophic sorrow I feel with me!"

Sith aren't "happy", they're...well, sith aren't really happy very often.

 

As far as Anakin + Padme goes, personally I found their whole relationship to be seven sorts of creepy. They met for like two days, when he was around EIGHT, and he suddenly had this massive crush on her that lasted 10 years, despite him never so much as talking to her once in all that time?

 

Yeah, that's not "love", that's "obsession".

Edited February 23, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[souloferdrick]

I dont know if I could call it evil or just plain madness.

[MrTBolt]

Must agree after playing the game as Sith THAN watch the movies for the first time i got confused.

 

I end hoping that the Sith will win the battles and i had a complete different perspective of the whole thing ^^

[RowanThursday]

Jedi philosophy is about maintaining inner calm, avoiding extremes of emotion- *certainly* avoiding being *driven* by emotion.

 

They do this in order to avoid the Dark Side- actions fueled by hate, fear, rage.

This means, of course, that they *also* miss out on actions fueled by love, compassion, etc (or they would if they lived *completely* by the book at all times, which I doubt any Jedi do)... but the point of Jedi philosophy, boiled down very simply, is:

 

"If you let your emotions rule you then, yes, it might be possible to do some wonderful Light Side things, possibly *more* than you might achieve if you keep them in check all the time... *but*, if you let yourself get into the habit of opening your heart to strong passions, letting your passions control you... then you make yourself very vulnerable, because you're giving the Dark side of *all of us* a free pass out into your actions.

 

Everyone feels hate, rage, etc. Everyone knows that you can *lose* your temper and become incredibly destructive. That's what's 'Dark Side', not emotion in itself... but the Jedi's contention is that... well, if you're a powerful telekinetic with a great big laser sword, you can't afford to take the *risk* of passion, because sooner or later the destructive passions will hit the surface- and then you'll have both caused untold suffering very quickly, *and* be in great danger of the "Ooh, that felt good, I *can* make the world how I *want* it... I know I shouldn't have done it, and I shouldn't do it again... but... maybe just once more..." trap.

 

 

Sith... are not necessarily evil. From the Jedi point of view, they are incredibly *irresponsible* at best. A Light-side Sith is a Sith walking that tightrope- allowing their passions to govern their actions, but still trying to police themselves, to not be wantonly destructive on a whim.

 

Is the Sith *Empire* evil- well, evil's a cartoonish simplification of morality, but, by that definition... yes, because it's controlled by a group of people with very Dark Side motives. Does that make 'Sith' a euphemism for 'bad guy' by definition? Of course not.

 

So, they use unbridled passion to guide and fuel themselves... that's socially irresponsible and dangerous, by the standards of Jedi society. However, the typical player smuggler... ignores laws that are inconvenient to him or her with little or no thought to "What would happen if everybody did this?"... blazes away fairly indiscriminately with blasters, cheats, lies, sleeps around... but, if light side, does it for the greater good. None the less, they're playing with fire, perhaps not as *much* as a Light-Side Sith is, but it doesn't make either of them axiomatically evil.

 

Bear in mind, of course, that the prequels, in particular, are a lengthy treatise on why Jedi philosophy, if stupidly applied, is every bit as dangerous; humans are animals, and governed by hormones, emotions, passions. At least Sith philosophy, if taught by someone not totally dark-side corrupt, allows those an outlet. Anakin's 'fall' was at least partially the fault of Mace Windu and his ilk, *not* because they should have recognised that Anakin was 'special' or anything of that nature, but because it should have been recognised that... young people fall in love, and sometimes "You're not allowed to do that, it's not happening, forget it, remember your teaching, moving on" is *not* a successful strategy.

 

Had certain people been different- had Palpatine been more sincere, for instance, Anakin could have been a vastly positive force in the galaxy as a Light Side Sith... but still as a Sith, because his powers always linked to his passion.

[Rastadrian]

Not all Sith are evil nor does jedi are all shinny knights, the world is made of grey.

 

Star Wars never really defined good and evil "depends on your point of view".

 

Revan first felled to the darkside saving the republic from the mandolarians.

Is that evil ?

Is using the darkside for the greater good evil?

No it's not , but doing nothing and letting a genocide not punished IS evil , strange that's what the council did.

Revan came back as a Sith Lord , yet he had in mind to capture the republics instalations in order to save the republic from the true sith.

Now again is that "evil"?

Was it evil to use the Star forge , a darkside semi-sientient being in order to save the republic from the Emperor power?

No it's not , it was even stated that if Revan wasn't betrayed by Malak he would of won the war agaisnt the republic and the true sith.

 

 

Now let's take a more "political" view :

The Empire.

Is the Empire evil?

Are all citizens of the empire evil?

No , the difference is that the hypocrits politicals are now force-user.

Do you think that the poor imperial soldier who's just doing his job is a brute , who kills for pleasure and like to torture kids?

No.

 

And if you were raised in the Empire , you could see the Republic as the "ennemy".

And it could be true , afterall when i see the dialogues on my JK , all i hear is about "crushing the empire/destroying it/erase it from history"

Even on my LS sith when i go around in peace i get attacked by "jedis"...

 

The main problem is that most sith are hungry for power , stupid beast and lose their initial objective : Ulic Quel Droma / Dark Vader syndrom...

Perhaps if we had more Revan's type of sith we could see that this is the true path to peace , liberty and order.

An Empire with a good Emperor in place.

Yet still a sith.

 

 

Freedom , strengh , passion that's things you need in life to live a happy life yet they are base of the sith code.

And "PEACE IS A LIE" well don't take it too literal , peace in everyday life is nothing more then chaos , look at the nature , does the nature seems peacefull ?

Does life seems peacefull?

Peace is an utopy , people will always find something to fight for : land/power/water/money/religion/politics/opinion etc etc , it's in the basic nature of man to fight.

But i think that the "peace" the sith cod eis talking about is the fact that peace is actually a lie because you'll always feel emotions , or it would mean you are a droid.

 

About slavery , republic also have slaves , Ryloth home-world of the twi'lek have a economie based on slavery...

Yet Jedis don't do ****t about them.

And "good" sith like Revan found slavery disgusting , that's also why he wasn't a slave to power.

 

So no Sith are not all really evil , most are but they are raised to be , the path was already made for them...

And the fact that the Star Wars universe needed an ennemy , the sith were just too easy to take and transform into monsters.

Yet the only one that directly murdered children was a jedi and he did this in the name of "love" ...

 

If all Sith were like Revan well it would F-up the Star wars universe , who would be the ennemy?

The Empire ?Impossible it's a mirror to the republic and in the future becomes even better then the republic (i'm speaking about the Palleon's Empire and FOTJ/Legacy's Empire).

[zergcoffeebean]

Let's see.

 

1. Using the dark side of the force - which feeds into one's own anger and hate, twisting and mutating them into more malevolent versions of themselves. (evil)

 

2. Use of slavery. (evil)

 

3. Eugenics. (evil)

 

4. Totalitarian/fascist government structure. (pretty evil)

 

5. Encouragement of murder and probably other horrific actions. (evil)

 

6. Suppression and ethnic cleansing of entire cultures and species (extremely evil)

 

Basically all the bad things that come from imperialism make the imperials pretty damn evil without even adding the whole "darkside" stuff into the mix.

 

I would say that these things are evil. No amount of cultural relativism will make these things not evil.

 

Structure is not evil, hierarchies are not inherently evil. It is how those power structures are used to oppress or uplift the people they govern. The jedi forbidding/discouraging attachments is not inherently evil, it's restrictive, but not evil.

[TheNewDemoman]

The Sith ideas not not necesarily evil.

 

The Sith are all about using emotions to create power. However, emotions lead to extreme hate, anger and rage. This leads to people acting out on their inner desires (usually bad). During the Sith quest lines, you occasionally see people who use their emotions to do good.

[ryuoki]

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion." This line most likely does not refer to world-wide-peace, and the declaration that they prefer war, it more likely is stating that "inner peace is a lie." meaning that its wrong to go celibate and repress your desires, emotions, and passions. etc.

 

This is why I stated the Sith are more REAL than the Jedi. No human can completely cut themselves off from their emotions. They are a natural part of life. Sith as a whole are not evil, but individuals within are.

[Enkenon]

Sith deep inside their hearts are like little scared kittens.

They are weak and the only way they can overcome this is

by bullying the force.

[Isulka]

This is why I stated the Sith are more REAL than the Jedi. No human can completely cut themselves off from their emotions. They are a natural part of life. Sith as a whole are not evil, but individuals within are.

 

I don't believe it's true.

 

It's Jedi's phylosophy, but I see it rather like an ultimate goal than the way they are. They fight against their emotions. They have emotions, but do their best to control them.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Moitteva
Removed inappropriate content (religious

[Excidium]

Yes, they are evil. Of the self-destructive sort. I kinda feel bad for non-Sith imperials, even if the Empire won the final war, the Empire's stability wouldn't last long because the only thing that keeps the Sith together is the common objective of crushing the Republic and the Jedi order. Edited June 27, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - due to age of post, no action

[JediElf]

Originally Posted by Ivannils

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion." This line most likely does not refer to world-wide-peace, and the declaration that they prefer war, it more likely is stating that "inner peace is a lie." meaning that its wrong to go celibate and repress your desires, emotions, and passions. etc.

This is why I stated the Sith are more REAL than the Jedi. No human can completely cut themselves off from their emotions. They are a natural part of life. Sith as a whole are not evil, but individuals within are.

 

I agree as well. I'd much rather be a Sith, than a Jedi.

 

...at least as a Sith, I could fall in love, and allow myself to be loved by others.

Edited February 24, 2012 by JediElf

[Maaruin]

I agree as well. I'd much rather be a Sith, than a Jedi.

 

...at least as a Sith, I could fall in love, and allow myself to be loved by others.

 

No, you couldn't. It would be a weakness which would get you killed most likely. Or at least would be frowned upon by other Sith.

(Remember, Malgus killed his Twi'lek lover because he realized that she was his only weakness.)

Edited February 24, 2012 by Maaruin

[alricka]

That's the catch, really. On theory, the Dark Side gives you absolute freedom... but in practice, it forces you to become a slave to your most basic and vile instincts, because anything lofty or noble (like love or mercy) is seen as a hindrance.

[LyriaFrost]

Plus the constant paranoia and having to watch over your shoulder at all times lest you get taken out by some up-and-comer. Sure, you "can love and be loved", but doing so shows all the other sith that you're weak, in their eyes, and deserving to be put down.

 

It's a pretty crappy society to exist in.

[Lightmaguz]

The light side of the force and the Jedi is not cutting yourself from emotions, don't be stupid, it's about controlling them. Every good emotion is encouraged, being so attached to something that you might eventually lose(as is the nature of all things) is prohibited because the ensuing depression is attuned to the dark side as are all the negative strong emotions, is that hard to understand people?

 

Paranoia fear and hate are much more common than love in the Sith Empire.

[JediElf]

Yes but the Jedi are still forbidden from falling in love. According to them it leads to the 'Dark Side'.

 

A Sith my choose to see love as a weakness, but they have a choice in that matter, a Jedi does not.

 

Also, to me, the Jedi way of controlling emotions is to feel none at all, to be detached and distant from your own humanity and lose a real connection with the world. Now to me, that speaks of the same paranoia that the Sith suffer from, except it somehow more insidious, and cruel.

 

The life of a Sith is dangerous, but in a way it seems a bit more genuine for a being born with that kind of power. The Jedi life is a lofty ideal, that would lead to madness.

Edited February 24, 2012 by JediElf

[VerrKol]

This an amazing thread but I stopped reading around page 23 so if I'm repeating, sorry but even I can only take so much Lore debate.

 

I'd like to suggest a simple definition of sorts to Jedi and Sith alike. Each follows their respective code and draws on their respective side of the force.

 

It's broad, but I think it covers all the various sects on either side as the respective orders change while still being particular enough to clearly denote where any given individual would fall.

 

This allows for the LS Sith and DS Jedi which people play as while maintaining their allegiances to respective factions.

 

For instance a LS Sith could use the DS of the force for (debatably) positive results a la Utilitarianism. They use the power they gain through the DS and fuel their force powers with emotions forbidden to Jedi in order to produce net gains.

 

Since so many people are clamoring for 'canonical' proof a LS Sith that does not become a Jedi I'll through out a possible contender.

 

Darth Cadeus. After killing Mara Jade (150 DS points), we can safely say that he was a Sith. He spent years of studying all force sects (read: acquiring power) and began to use his emotions to fuel his power. He did everything to try to protect Allana. If you're following, I've just shown he's your average Sith and very Darth Vader-esque.

 

Now the twist: He did it all for the greater good! That's right, he killed his own aunt, took the mantle of a Sith Lord, and plunged the entire New Republic into chaos trying to make the galaxy a safer place.

 

I won't debate whether or not he succeeded (not sure this can be debated given continued plot developments), but I think the intent was clearly there as iterated when Luke and Ben later discover while they search for Abeloth.

 

That's proof that a Sith can do good while maintaining the Sith code.

 

In Revan (novel), LS Revan post awakening uses force lightning to kill a Sith Lord (name escapes me). Proof LS uses can use DS powers.

 

Combine these two conclusions and what do you get....

 

SHADES OF GREY!

Sith are not more inherently evil than Jedi are inherently good. There are established doctrines which clearly make it easier for a Jedi to be "good" than Sith, but its not an impossibility to see a moral Sith. Would it be hard to resist temptation while using the DS for moral ends? Absolutely, but not impossible.

 

I'd like to point out that I decided to make an ends justify the means kind of Jedi that is technically DS. I save innocents all the time, but occasionally killing someone to save a whole lot of people is DS for BW...

 

Food for thought

[Maaruin]

Yes but the Jedi are still forbidden from falling in love. According to them it leads to the 'Dark Side'.

 

A Sith my choose to see love as a weakness, but they have a choice in that matter, a Jedi does not.

 

As far as I know a Jedi can fall in love and leave the order. He will loose rank and title, but he has not to fear fellow Jedi to use it against him in their power struggle.

A Jedi also can fall in love and try to overcome this feeling, talk with his masters about it, think about it but finally set it aside. (We also have to overcome love in real life sometimes: when only one feels it.)

 

Also, to me, the Jedi way of controlling emotions is to feel none at all, to be detached and distant from your own humanity and lose a real connection with the world. Now to me, that speaks of the same paranoia that the Sith suffer from, except it somehow more insidious, and cruel.

 

I think that's not right. Where do you have the idea from that Jedi don't feel emotions anymore?

I think Jedi and Sith are distant from their humanity: Jedi try to set emotions aside. Sith use emotions only as a tool to become strong. They embrace the most unpleasent and disturbing ones and exaggerate them to a very inhuman form.

 

The life of a Sith is dangerous, but in a way it seems a bit more genuine for a being born with that kind of power. The Jedi life is a lofty ideal, that would lead to madness.

 

As I said sometime ago, I think this is Sith propaganda Jedi don't seem much worse then any monastic order on earth. That's a lifestyle most of us would reject, but there are some who would choose it. (The Sith are more like cruel Warlords.)

[LyriaFrost]

The life of a Sith is dangerous, but in a way it seems a bit more genuine for a being born with that kind of power. The Jedi life is a lofty ideal, that would lead to madness.

 

Really? You think taking children and throwing them into the meatgrinder of Korriban is "more genuine?"

 

The only thing they learn there is "kill or be killed." Making actual friends? No. They'll betray you, or will be used against you. Falling in love? No. The person you're in love with has an extremely high chance of dying at any moment (so do you), and the overseers may well just randomly kill one of you to try and make the other "stronger through their grief."

 

It's no wonder most sith come across as absolutely nuts. Think about it. They're thrown into a situation, as children, where they can NEVER relax. For a decade or more. If they relax, even for a moment, they'll probably get killed. They're thrown into suicidal situations with the overseers saying "You probably won't come back. I hope you don't, you weakling." The other students are out to kill them. The TEACHERS are out to kill them. The only way to survive is to be wholly self-sufficient and introverted, while watching over your shoulder at all times.

 

I'd MUCH rather be a jedi. At least I can quit if I ever get tired of it.

[alricka]

I think that the most ironic thing about the chasm between the Sith and the Jedi is how, at the end, when you come down to the bare essentials, you have nothing, no matter which side you choose.

 

The Jedi encourage a life of both physical and emotional ascetism to the point where they own little more than the clothes on their backs and have no real attachments to other beings.

While the Sith spend their lives trying to hog onto power or treasures, or whatever it is that makes them happy, only to lose everything at the end, usually because other Sith decided they feel like removing the competition.

 

The Jedi spend their lives fighting battles that aren't really theirs, simply in order to protect people that are total strangers. The Sith spend their lives trying to outbackstab each other in an endless power struggle.

 

If you ask me, I wouldn't want to be either. Which doesn't stop me from rolling them in the game, but that's a different matter