Expertise Stat for PvE Not PvP

[StrandtheMan]

Wouldn't this solve a lot of the PvP issues?

 

Since people want PvP fights to be more even, why give gear with a sole specific stat that makes you better against other players? Instead of the Expertise stat for PvP, place that stat on PvE gear instead so that the more Expertise you have...the better you are in Operations and HM Flashpoints as it will increase damage dealt and damage mitigated.

 

PvP gear can just scale up with increased stats that are slightly higher than PvE gear, but will actually be weaker in PvE settings due to the expertise stat. In fact, future PvE gear will scale better as Operations/Flashpoints can be rated by level of expertise needed to survive the enemies located within. This will allow for increasingly more powerful PvE gear to be obtained, while at the same time not throwing PvP combat too far out of wack when such higher level gear is used against undergeared opponents.

 

Just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

[PinkSugar]

Wouldn't this solve a lot of the PvP issues?

 

Since people want PvP fights to be more even, why give gear with a sole specific stat that makes you better against other players? Instead of the Expertise stat for PvP, place that stat on PvE gear instead so that the more Expertise you have...the better you are in Operations and HM Flashpoints as it will increase damage dealt and damage mitigated.

 

PvP gear can just scale up with increased stats that are slightly higher than PvE gear, but will actually be weaker in PvE settings due to the expertise stat. In fact, future PvE gear will scale better as Operations/Flashpoints can be rated by level of expertise needed to survive the enemies located within. This will allow for increasingly more powerful PvE gear to be obtained, while at the same time not throwing PvP combat too far out of wack when such higher level gear is used against undergeared opponents.

 

Just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

 

Because whoever is working on the PvP system within the Bioware team has ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE AS TO *** they are DOING!

 

Gear should NOT matter in PvP Competition! ONLY SKILL!!!!

[emeraldon]

While the idea is good, without a damage reduction in PvP, abilities' damage would be even more ridiculous than what they already are.

[Posixgod]

Wouldn't this solve a lot of the PvP issues?

 

Since people want PvP fights to be more even, why give gear with a sole specific stat that makes you better against other players? Instead of the Expertise stat for PvP, place that stat on PvE gear instead so that the more Expertise you have...the better you are in Operations and HM Flashpoints as it will increase damage dealt and damage mitigated.

 

PvP gear can just scale up with increased stats that are slightly higher than PvE gear, but will actually be weaker in PvE settings due to the expertise stat. In fact, future PvE gear will scale better as Operations/Flashpoints can be rated by level of expertise needed to survive the enemies located within. This will allow for increasingly more powerful PvE gear to be obtained, while at the same time not throwing PvP combat too far out of wack when such higher level gear is used against undergeared opponents.

 

Just my 2 cents. Any thoughts?

 

That's an interesting idea, I'm conflicted on the whole expertise deal in general, at times I often think that gear should just be gear, no specialized PVP or PVE sets, etc.

 

Itemization isn't really strong in Swtor in it's current state, I'm feeling that after a few months this will be corrected and more items, craftable and otherwise will be added and give players a lot more to play with.

 

I'm almost apt to just say remove Expertise and even the playing field for all.

[dwgagner]

That's an interesting idea, I'm conflicted on the whole expertise deal in general, at times I often think that gear should just be gear, no specialized PVP or PVE sets, etc.

 

Itemization isn't really strong in Swtor in it's current state, I'm feeling that after a few months this will be corrected and more items, craftable and otherwise will be added and give players a lot more to play with.

 

I'm almost apt to just say remove Expertise and even the playing field for all.

 

How does that even the playing field when if you don't have the expertise stat columni / tionese gear is better.

 

And if the pvp gear was made equal then what point would PvE'ers have for getting raid sets?

 

See the dilemma?

[StealthStalker]

How does that even the playing field when if you don't have the expertise stat columni / tionese gear is better.

 

And if the pvp gear was made equal then what point would PvE'ers have for getting raid sets?

 

See the dilemma?

 

They have the gear they need to progress through the next tier of content? I liked the Ward system Warhammer used...

 

It required you to progress through PvE content to get to the next tier, but it allowed gear obtained in PvP to be equal to PvE gear (statwise), and without the gear being too crazily strong (until the RR100 gear, but that's another story), because the increase in stats from one tier to the next didn't have to be ridiculously large.

 

You could technically take PvP gear in to PvE in Warhammer, but that was because PvP gear contained the Wards in that game. Put the Wards only on PvE gear, and it means you must have PvE gear to progress.

 

Why would this work better than the current system? Because progressing is part of the allure for PvE. Completing content, and moving on to the next tier is part of the fun.

 

PvP isn't like that, PvP is all about the competition. Therefore the more people we have out PvP'ing, either in Warzones or the World, it's more fun.

 

With the upcoming gear changes, you could then potentially take PvE gear set bonuses and throw them on PvP gear. I'd still be okay with this even if I didn't PvE, because it wouldn't be an insurmountable bonus.

 

So move the "Expertise" stat to PvE, make it even more pronounced, so much so that it's a requirement to move to the next "Tier". My goal/plan here would be so that you don't have people running around with 100k hp in a few years following expansions... because the Wards would be needed, not higher stats, to progress in PvE.

 

It kind of kills two birds with one stone. No gear/stat-inflation with future content, and you can keep PvP/PvE gear equivalent in power so that PvP remains competitive.

 

Throw in Realm Abilities/passive stat boosts that you purchase with your Realm Points and you have the advantage long-time pvp'ers get over those with less experience.

 

Anyway, the system doesn't have to match Warhammer's ward system exactly, but the idea and potential is there. There's definitely something to work with.

[StealthStalker]

Here's my overview of "Wards" from another thread on the subject

 

----

 

Dual Targeting was amazing.

 

Wards, while in their first incarnation were quite bad, ended up being great.

 

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Ward

 

Each tier of content required wards from the previous tier. With no wards, you took 300% damage from and did 40% damage to the creatures in that encounter.

 

There were 5 wards for each tier, one for each primary armor piece. Each ward lowered damage taken by 40%, and increased damage done by 15%.

 

So with full "Wards", you took 100% damage and did 115%.

 

At the start you had to actually wear the gear that contained the ward to do the encounter. Eventually they removed this requirement, and instead the Wards became unlocked in your Tome of Knowledge (eg: Codex, here).

 

You could then also unlock Wards with various different ways, such as:

 

Loot a certain piece of armor containing the correct ward from the previous tier (eg: Head slot).

Kill a certain boss X amount of times in the Previous dungeon.

Perform a certain feat in RvR Y amount of times.

 

This allowed you to obtain wards even if you couldn't get the drop you needed. The Kill X bosses, and Perform Y feats could take quite some time... but you would get the ward.

 

This allowed the gating of progression content, and also allowed gear to remain competitive in both PvP and PvE without affecting one or the other adversely. Not only does this solve the need for "Expertise" or "Resilience", but it also does away with ridiculous amounts of gear-inflation required to improve PvE gear for future content.

 

Now I'm not saying this system should be copied identically. eg: Using RvR feats for Wards, but still. We'd no longer need expertise (or uh, a healing debuff?... so consumables could be universal again), and PvE still requires Progression/work to get through.

 

---

 

 

Again, this doesn't have to be an exactly replicated system. Just take the idea and improve upon it, modify it some. The potential is there.

 

Whether that means another Ward-ish system, or simply making "Expertise" a PvE stat, I'm not sure.

 

Guess it depends on if you want progression gear to lead from boss to boss in future dungeons (eg: Expertise stat then?). Or simply let the wards cover entry to each tier, and let each boss's difficulty in the dungeon scale by mechanics/execution.

Edited February 6, 2012 by StealthStalker

[StealthStalker]

While the idea is good, without a damage reduction in PvP, abilities' damage would be even more ridiculous than what they already are.

 

That isn't a problem at all. The "PvE Expertise" stat would handle damage done in PvE. Raw stats, which is what PvP damage is based on, and would be equal to same-tier PvP acquired gear.

 

That is, when you keep progressing and acquiring new gear.

 

The current ability damage and everything can simply be adjusted to be normalized/less powerful and let the PvE-Expertise stat handle damage in PvE.

 

Toss in Realm abilities, a "talent tree" to progress down for PvP'ers, and you can give small advantages to those who PvP more than others. That gives those who need a reason to PvP something to work for, and everyone else treats it as a bonus.

Edited February 6, 2012 by StealthStalker

[StrandtheMan]

While the idea is good, without a damage reduction in PvP, abilities' damage would be even more ridiculous than what they already are.

 

But the current Expertise stat on the PvP gear is making those abilities' damage that much higher. Remember, Expertise increases damage/healing output and damage mitigation accross the board by x%.

 

If ithe stat were moved to PvE gear, then the damage of those wearing PvP gear wouldnt be as high and you wouldnt need to be wearing the same level of PvP gear just to survive. This may even help close the gap a little between fully geared PvP players and under geared PvP players.

[Thromnambular]

While the idea is good, without a damage reduction in PvP, abilities' damage would be even more ridiculous than what they already are.

 

This one is easy...all they have to do is create a buff/debuff that affects anyone in a PvP zone and alters the amount of damage/healing done so that people don't die as quickly and PvP fights can last a bit longer.

[StrandtheMan]

This one is easy...all they have to do is create a buff/debuff that affects anyone in a PvP zone and alters the amount of damage/healing done so that people don't die as quickly and PvP fights can last a bit longer.

 

That too would work...sort of like the "trama" debuff that makes heals 30% less in PvP combat. DPS could suffer from this too, although due to healing usually being greater than DPS, I dont see this as ever needing that severe of a reduction lol.

[StealthStalker]

That too would work...sort of like the "trama" debuff that makes heals 30% less in PvP combat. DPS could suffer from this too, although due to healing usually being greater than DPS, I dont see this as ever needing that severe of a reduction lol.

 

Kind of unnecessary if you simply normalize and balance everything from the ground up. Adjust HP values, damage and healing values, and let the PvE-Expertise stat balance it for PvE content.

 

So, basically balance for PvP first, and let the PvP-Expertise (or Ward system) handle the PvE side of things.

 

The system doesn't have to affect damage/healing at the same rate, like the current expertise does. You could easily adjust the effect of it for healing and damage (both incoming/outgoing) individually. You could even have it boost endurance values to compensate for higher healing/damage requirements or something.

 

That said, the trauma buff/debuff solution isn't out of the question. There's plenty of ways to approach the problem.

 

I honestly don't know what the best way to do it is, but there's got to be something better than we have currently.

Edited February 6, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Nodulo]

At the end of the day Bioware isn't going to completely overhaul the entire dynamic of expertise in pvp I think we all know that...

 

I think we all can agree you can't just dismiss expertise as any raider would simply become the "OP" geared player in pvp and force folks to raid to compete.

 

So we are left with few choices imo, rated 50 wz's with better perks than non-rated and the non-rated would introduce perks to enter rateds after individuals completed enough to gear up properly.

[StrandtheMan]

At the end of the day Bioware isn't going to completely overhaul the entire dynamic of expertise in pvp I think we all know that...

 

I think we all can agree you can't just dismiss expertise as any raider would simply become the "OP" geared player in pvp and force folks to raid to compete.

 

So we are left with few choices imo, rated 50 wz's with better perks than non-rated and the non-rated would introduce perks to enter rateds after individuals completed enough to gear up properly.

 

But its not much of an overhaul just adjusting stat totals of gear and moving Expertise to PvE teir gear.

 

Also, raiders wouldnt be "OP" in PvP as their gear will generally have lower totals in other stats when compared to PvP gear. Its the expertise stat that would give them the extra boost in damage and defense needed to survive Operations/HM Flashpoints. That means players could PvP with PvE gear...but they would never be as good as using actual PvP gear.

 

The same goes for using PvP gear in PvE. Sure the general stat totals are higher, but the lack of a PvE "expertise" stat would mean that such gear is still x% weaker (x = Expertise stat bonus).

[StealthStalker]

What I think we can agree on is that this isn't something that can be hotfixed in or done with the next content patch. If anyone has the resources or ability to pull off such an overhaul, it would be Bioware.

 

Blizzard took many years to flush out their mechanics, and as far as I know they still change them on occasion. I haven't played since '06, but since then they introduced (and then removed?) resilience, changed the ways many stats worked, etc. GCD has been adjusted, so on and so forth.

 

This proposal isn't any different than something like that. Easy? No. Quick? No. Worth doing in the long run to really simplify things on the PvP front, while not requiring gear-inflation to the point of WoW?

 

When I left WoW, my rogue had something like 4k hp in really good Tier 1 or Tier 2 gear. When I got accepted to the Cataclysm beta, with blues for the max level for that content I had ~120k hp? That boggled my mind.

 

This isn't just for "balancing" PvP, it's to combat that type of gear inflation as well... but maybe I'm just in the minority in worrying about that outcome.

[Nodulo]

But its not much of an overhaul just adjusting stat totals of gear and moving Expertise to PvE teir gear.

 

Also, raiders wouldnt be "OP" in PvP as their gear will generally have lower totals in other stats when compared to PvP gear. Its the expertise stat that would give them the extra boost in damage and defense needed to survive Operations/HM Flashpoints. That means players could PvP with PvE gear...but they would never be as good as using actual PvP gear.

 

The same goes for using PvP gear in PvE. Sure the general stat totals are higher, but the lack of a PvE "expertise" stat would mean that such gear is still x% weaker (x = Expertise stat bonus).

 

If you revamp like this there has to be an "up" on mob and boss health in op's and HFp's. This equates into larger pve gear health pools which would translate into folks all of a sudden in pvp in said gear having ridiculous life totals. Yes they could spend time to rebalance of these changes but I just don't see something as profound of a change happening.

 

I'm not dismiss you're idea I just think there is a simpler solution than totally reinventing the wheel. Rated and non-rated wz's would fit the mold imo.

[StealthStalker]

I still think this is a solid idea.

 

To reiterate:

 

PvP is all about the competition on an even (mostly) playing field.

PvE is all about progression, downing content, and the ups and downs that come with that.

 

The more people we have PvP'ing, the better. Anything that will get more people out there is a good thing.

 

How do we incentivize PvP'ing or those who do it the most? Implement some sort of Realm Ability system, or simply have PvP gear slightly more "PvP" focused with their set bonuses and the like.

 

There's a lot of potential here available for discussion.