ANALYSIS: Scoundrel is the Worst Class in the Game at Everything

[ohnam]

 

In short, I think scoundrels and Ops are 'the best' at being generalists and emergency helpers.

 

And you would be wrong, Sages are better at generalists and emergency helpers. And if you disagree then you don't know what you are talking about.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ohnam

[Ultanar]

Agreed.

 

The other problem I have with the comment you replied to is that generalists can work in PvP but I don't think they work in PvE at all. One thing we learned from the early years of that other MMO is that generalists like Druids and Pallies did not work very well. They were revamped heavily to allow them to specialize.

 

You want specialists. You need them for challenging content.

 

Additionally, the other thing that post misses is the degree of difference between the best and the worst spec. If the degree of difference is small, there isn't an issue. However, if it's large, there is a massive issue. I don't mind being the least capable at my chosen role (healing). However if the gap in relevant content is too big, as many are saying, I do care.

 

Now of course some of the thread is hyperbole. We are clearly not useless. However no class should feel like a perennial second class citizen.

[VelnikSP]

And you would be wrong, Sages are better at generalists and emergency helpers. And if you disagree then you don't know what you are talking about.

 

'If you disagree you don't know what you are talking about'

 

yes, I agree with you that your disagreement means you don't have a clue what you are talking about...

 

so, if you are so obviously ignorant, why do you bother posting?

[VelnikSP]

Agreed.

 

The other problem I have with the comment you replied to is that generalists can work in PvP but I don't think they work in PvE at all. One thing we learned from the early years of that other MMO is that generalists like Druids and Pallies did not work very well. They were revamped heavily to allow them to specialize.

 

You want specialists. You need them for challenging content.

 

Additionally, the other thing that post misses is the degree of difference between the best and the worst spec. If the degree of difference is small, there isn't an issue. However, if it's large, there is a massive issue. I don't mind being the least capable at my chosen role (healing). However if the gap in relevant content is too big, as many are saying, I do care.

 

Now of course some of the thread is hyperbole. We are clearly not useless. However no class should feel like a perennial second class citizen.

 

in wow they did not work very well. in city of heroes generalists worked very well indeed.

 

SWtor is NOT wow. it is NOT open world content, and there are very few things about it that even vaguely resemble WoW other than gear-driven enhancement. In point of fact, it's mission system and personal character story and friendliness to casual gamers resembles champions online FAR more than it does wow.

 

generalists failed in wow because the content was NOT designed to be accessible to single players, and pvp is, in fact, an area where generalists tend to shine.

 

so that's two of the three tiers holding the game up.

[SliggXx]

Are you?

 

I ask because you have a strange perspective, as if you have never PVP'd at end-game. So either you aren't 50 and your post is understandable or you are just not competent. So, which is it? I am not trying to knock you per se. It is just that you have a very strange take on things that doesn't seem to line up with what most people understand about the class.

 

ETA:Yes, I am.

Edited February 22, 2012 by SliggXx

[Ultanar]

in wow they did not work very well. in city of heroes generalists worked very well indeed.

 

SWtor is NOT wow. it is NOT open world content, and there are very few things about it that even vaguely resemble WoW other than gear-driven enhancement. In point of fact, it's mission system and personal character story and friendliness to casual gamers resembles champions online FAR more than it does wow.

 

generalists failed in wow because the content was NOT designed to be accessible to single players, and pvp is, in fact, an area where generalists tend to shine.

 

so that's two of the three tiers holding the game up.

 

I wouldn't say that single-player will be a viable tier after a few months. Over time, there will be two - PvP and end-game PvE. People stop caring about the single-player aspect once they reach max-level.

 

I agree with you that a generalist can work in PVP. Keep in mind though, I don't PvP in SWTOR so I can't comment on our effectiveness there as a class.

 

The issue with PvE (ops specifically) is more that as BW starts pushing out challenging content, the generalists will start getting left out. I've seen several raid tiers in WoW and the generalist never works well. (Never played CoH so can't comment on that.) For a long time, the only thing propping them up was ultra-powerful class-specific buffs. That's not a good position to be in for anyone.

 

The other issue is what I said earlier: the degree of the difference. It's not us wanting to be the best. We need to be close enough though. However when that AoE damage goes out right now, I feel like a chump. Considering so much of current PVE is AoE damage, that's an issue.

[SliggXx]

in wow they did not work very well. in city of heroes generalists worked very well indeed.

 

SWtor is NOT wow. it is NOT open world content, and there are very few things about it that even vaguely resemble WoW other than gear-driven enhancement. In point of fact, it's mission system and personal character story and friendliness to casual gamers resembles champions online FAR more than it does wow.

 

generalists failed in wow because the content was NOT designed to be accessible to single players, and pvp is, in fact, an area where generalists tend to shine.

 

so that's two of the three tiers holding the game up.

 

The mission system is no different from WoW's quest system in point of fact. You have quest hubs, quest NPCs, "kill this, click that" types of quests. Fundamentally it is exactly the same. You could make the argument that repeatable quests make it different, but that is tenuous at best. It is the same.

 

WoW's content accessibility to single players is not any different than TOR's, for the most part. Just like in WoW you cannot complete operations or flashpoints without competent groups. Sure, WoW didn't have the story-driven single player, linear progression like ToR, but it was no less accessible to single players as a whole. As a matter of fact, Wow currently has much more single-player content in the game than ToR and it isn't even close. Both games require you to enlist the aid of others to complete end-game objectives. And no, your story quest is not the "end-game." Heck, ToR even requires groups for crafting objectives just like WoW.

[VelnikSP]

I ask because you have a strange perspective, as if you have never PVP'd at end-game. So either you aren't 50 and your post is understandable or you are just not competent. So, which is it? I am not trying to knock you per se. It is just that you have a very strange take on things that doesn't seem to line up with what most people understand about the class.

 

ETA:Yes, I am.

 

*sigh* people always demand your pedigree.

 

I have a 50 Operative on Bergeren colony

I have a 38 scoundrel on Drooga

I have a 35 Marauder on Beregren colony

I have a 36 trooper on Drooga

I have a 50 powertech on Drooga

I have a 44 shadow on drooga

I have a 29 gunslinger on drooga

and many more.

I am an altoholic and I don't sleep much.

 

Outside, I have over 12 level 50's on CoH. 3 max levels on DAoC, several high-levels on anarchy online, a battleship pilot I haven't played in 5 years on EvE online, several max level characters on champions online, a metric ton of characters in wow (several were endgamers when i left, but at the time I left the max level was 70...no clue what it is now)

an enormous number of level 50's in everquest (back when it was the only one and it was HARD) and a UO playtester beta account. Heck, i even have a bunch of endgamers from games like perfect world, guild wars (in which endgame does not exist), and even wizard101 and so many friggin korean MMO's that I don't remember their names.

 

from a writing point of view, I was a graphic designer in Frayed Knights RPG (look it up on google, I am not allowed to give you the url... but if you buy a copy I make some money *grin*), a mapper for the original quake version of team fortress (uncredited darnit! all of us got gypped by the valve team)a contrinuting member of the wodmod team for "Vampire, the masquerade: Redemption", a core mapper/storywriter for the alien TC quake mod before we got CDL'ed by paramount, and I have written two major modules for GURPS, one of which wasx published by SJ, and the other of which is available as a free download.... once again, I am not allowed to tell you what they are because that would be advertising as well as giving my real name.

 

I have Played PVP and endgame content in far more games than I can count, and I am older and more misanthropic than most other people on this board. My perspective is a game balance perspective, based on what I have seen and not seen, and the fact that even most of the 'experts' in this game are still more-or-less flailing in the dark. There is still content you have not unlocked, builds you have not experimented with, team formulations you have not tried, tactics you have not approached, and secrets you have not found.

 

 

You have been playing this game for three to five months, and your attempt to even conceive of a way on which to invalidate the opinions of others based on their... 'experience', is absolutely laughable. Try it again in ten years.

[Azzkickrr]

Jesus man, youll poke someones eye out. Watch where you swing that Epeen!

[ohnam]

'If you disagree you don't know what you are talking about'

 

yes, I agree with you that your disagreement means you don't have a clue what you are talking about...

 

so, if you are so obviously ignorant, why do you bother posting?

 

Because you are delusional and the truth shall set you free. Just trying to help you out when your arguments seemed to be pulled from a game like COH. SWTOR is closer to Wow than it is COH.

 

Specialists are key to most mmo content. COH is not a true mmo in my opinion since all the content was dynamic and not static with scripted events. Dynamic content is built to handle generically while scripted events are better suited for specialists.

 

This does not mean it can't be handled my generalists but its easier with specialist and you have to break the user perception that it can be handled by generalists. When dealing with more than one player you have to break the other person perception. Right now every one can see that Sage's healer are better because they make most of the scripted content easier than Scoundrel healing.

 

You can prove this on any server when you do /who command and see that there are more players rolling Sages/Sorcs than Scoundrels.

 

Burst DPS is also the other topic you point out is our main calling but sustained dps is much better for scripted content. In pvp our burst used to be great but its ok now. Unfortunately for certain warzones sages are more powerful than Scoundrels due to their utility while ours is lacking. If we cannot kill fast then we are not as useful as a sage.

 

You are going off the same information we all have as players, so your opinion is as ignorant as mine when it comes to SWTOR. Actually since you roll so many alts I know I have way more hours on my Scoundrel than you do any of your toons. I only play one toon and I play a lot so I have more actual experience with this class than you do.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ohnam

[SliggXx]

*sigh* people always demand your pedigree.

 

I have a 50 Operative on Bergeren colony

 

BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

Try it again in ten years.

 

So, your wall of MMORPG resume wall of text,aside - your commentary still makes absolutely no sense. You seem to have little to no knowledge of the class, its role and how it performs in PvP.

 

Note: I can assure you that your mediocre "pedigree" is immaterial to this discussion. Just because you are old with tons of gaming experience doesn't mean you know anything about this game. I am old and have played many of the games you list, probably at a higher level in a competitive sense, but I don't feel the need to discuss that as it relates to why my opinion matters about THIS game. Like I said, my issue is with your oddball commentary.

 

Let's break it down:

every see a sent trying to tank? It's not impossible, just takes a lot more challenge, and sents are the 'worst at the role' among classes that carry shields (tankers).

 

Sent....tank...

 

Are you serious? Worst at the role?

 

They have no role. I'd rather heal a commando. You are wrong, it is impossible for a Sentinel to tank real end-game content properly. They aren't even in the disucssion.

 

I am comfortable with not having the best 'sustained DPS', why? because I have an incredible amount of 'burst DPS' and crowd control. so even when I cannot stealth content, I can tear it to shreds, stealth to someplace safe, and then take the downtime I need to get back into burst mode.

 

So when people complain about sustained DPS balance issues, your response is to describe how the class performs in single player PVE against single player trash mobs. I think you are missing the point. Sustained DPS refers to how well the class is performing in PvP, Hardmode flashpoints and Operations, as sustained DPS is basically a non-issue otherwise since pretty much every class burns through single player content. So, you just seem to be disconnected to the realities of the game.

 

I am comfortable with not having the best aoe. why? because I can 'burst' down those 3 mobs, one at a time, and take out the strong in half the time it takes the aoe specialist to mow them down with aoe's and final dps single target.

 

Are people REALLY clamoring for the best AoE DPS? I think pretty much everyone is ok with where it is at. Are you confused with people not being happy with the Scoundrel AoE Heal?

 

I am comfortable with not being able to tank in pvp. why? because I can take out the enemy group's healer and make a good inroads into the health bars of their DPS or tank BEFORE they even realize I am there... and the same cannot be done to me, because when I am not healing I am stealthed.

 

1. Scoundrel healers tank all the time. It is one reason why they are even viable in pvp. My scoundrel healer can be the toughest target to take down on my team and I am almost always at 0 or 1 death in Warzones. Which leads me to:

 

2. You can take out the enemy's healer AND do considerable damage to a DPS before they are "aware" of it? What level of PvP are we discussing? Since the nerf, you are definitely not taking out a healer before anyone is "aware" of it. MAYBE a fresh 50 with 0 expertise would die quickly, but any decently geared and non-afk healer will take some effort to kill. As a healer myself, I laugh at enemy Operatives. They simply cannot kill me alone and the only threat they pose is to stunlock me enough to where someone else can help them take me down. This is one of those comments that makes me wonder if you have even PvP'd at 50. It just doesn't reflect reality.

 

3. You comment about being able to take down Healers in seconds ("before anyone notices"), yet also claim that when you are not healing you are stealthed. So, which is it? Are you DPS or Heals? As a Heal/DPS hybrid I usually spend most of my time healing, but I also DPS quite a bit. Yet, in mostly Battlemaster with a relic activated, stim active and adrenal popped I can take a Champion-level geared healer to 50% in a few seconds. Of course, as a healer, I don't have KO so there is no way for me to finish them off before they use their CC-breaker on my Dirty kick, at which point they can escape, bubble, use defensives, etc. So you claim to be a healer, yet you also claim to be able to kill people in seconds, nearly kill another person before they even NOTICE you. So one of two things is happening here. Either you are a DPS Operative and are doing your team a disservice by healing, or you are exaggerating your level of DPS as a Heal Specced Operative. If you are a healing specced Operative, you aren't doing the kind of burst damage you describe. And if you claim to be able to, I ask that you provide proof your amazing, game-mechanics-defying damage. I have my own suspicions, but I will refrain from posting them.

 

You sir, have failed at deflection.

Edited February 22, 2012 by SliggXx

[antiviolence]

Someone has been living in the past. About 2 nerfs ago. Must be all the alts he has that he can't seem to tell which is which anymore. Prolly hasn't really touched his Scoundrel for a long time too.

[DunsparrowSolo]

*sigh* people always demand your pedigree.

 

I have a 50 Operative on Bergeren colony

I have a 38 scoundrel on Drooga

I have a 35 Marauder on Beregren colony

I have a 36 trooper on Drooga

I have a 50 powertech on Drooga

I have a 44 shadow on drooga

I have a 29 gunslinger on drooga

and many more.

I am an altoholic and I don't sleep much.

 

Outside, I have over 12 level 50's on CoH. 3 max levels on DAoC, several high-levels on anarchy online, a battleship pilot I haven't played in 5 years on EvE online, several max level characters on champions online, a metric ton of characters in wow (several were endgamers when i left, but at the time I left the max level was 70...no clue what it is now)

an enormous number of level 50's in everquest (back when it was the only one and it was HARD) and a UO playtester beta account. Heck, i even have a bunch of endgamers from games like perfect world, guild wars (in which endgame does not exist), and even wizard101 and so many friggin korean MMO's that I don't remember their names.

 

from a writing point of view, I was a graphic designer in Frayed Knights RPG (look it up on google, I am not allowed to give you the url... but if you buy a copy I make some money *grin*), a mapper for the original quake version of team fortress (uncredited darnit! all of us got gypped by the valve team)a contrinuting member of the wodmod team for "Vampire, the masquerade: Redemption", a core mapper/storywriter for the alien TC quake mod before we got CDL'ed by paramount, and I have written two major modules for GURPS, one of which wasx published by SJ, and the other of which is available as a free download.... once again, I am not allowed to tell you what they are because that would be advertising as well as giving my real name.

 

I have Played PVP and endgame content in far more games than I can count, and I am older and more misanthropic than most other people on this board. My perspective is a game balance perspective, based on what I have seen and not seen, and the fact that even most of the 'experts' in this game are still more-or-less flailing in the dark. There is still content you have not unlocked, builds you have not experimented with, team formulations you have not tried, tactics you have not approached, and secrets you have not found.

 

 

You have been playing this game for three to five months, and your attempt to even conceive of a way on which to invalidate the opinions of others based on their... 'experience', is absolutely laughable. Try it again in ten years.

 

What a load of useless information. What possible use is it to us to learn that you worked on some crap RPG that no one has ever heard of, or you made maps for Quake? We're talking about this class, this game. Your prior experience is obviously a handicap to you and instead of citing it as "proof" that you understand something, you should consider the fact that you are woefully ignorant of the class that we have all played more than you.

[SliggXx]

What a load of useless information. What possible use is it to us to learn that you worked on some crap RPG that no one has ever heard of, or you made maps for Quake? We're talking about this class, this game. Your prior experience is obviously a handicap to you and instead of citing it as "proof" that you understand something, you should consider the fact that you are woefully ignorant of the class that we have all played more than you.

 

How dare you question him! He has a ton of level 50's in Everquest from WHEN IT WAS HARD!

[lllSike]

I dont think were as bad as you think ,but I do agree we are lacking. I dont understand biowares intentions for us(specifically scrappers. Do they want us as a burst class or a contol class?

 

pic taken today http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428604_2378465520678_1821844246_1444402_429481393_n.jpg

i dont mean to brag or show off in anyways I just want to point out its possible for us to be good just requires effort

IMO the one thing we need is a gap closer

for those of you who played wow.... wouldnt shadowstep just be the perfect thing for us?

[Ich_Bin]

I dont think were as bad as you think ,but I do agree we are lacking. I dont understand biowares intentions for us(specifically scrappers. Do they want us as a burst class or a contol class?

Add to that: Do they want us to be a melee or a ranged class?

 

pic taken today http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428604_2378465520678_1821844246_1444402_429481393_n.jpg

i dont mean to brag or show off in anyways I just want to point out its possible for us to be good just requires effort

IMO the one thing we need is a gap closer

for those of you who played wow.... wouldnt shadowstep just be the perfect thing for us?

 

Seriously. This pic shows/proves nothing. The most effective players I have seen in Huttball ended their matches with 3 digit damage numbers/3 digit healing numbers. And next to no medals.

That's because those players were only concerned with getting the ball to the enemy goal line ASAP instead of joining the zerg fest in the middle. Obviously 100% of those players were Consulars/Inquisitors. Scoundrels simply cannot play that effective in Huttball.

 

It is very easy as a Scoundrel to top the charts, especially in Huttball. But it is also very easy to do that while being completely and utterly useless to your team.

Take a closer look at your screenshot. 5 out of the top 6 players in this game are on your team. But you team lost 1-4. What does that show you?

 

 

We really need to stop posting screenshots with high damage/high medal numbers as proof of anything. Instead we have to look at the facts.

I have scored more goals/done more assists in Huttball with my valor 28 Sentinel than with my valor 64 Scoundrel. I can only imagine how it must be as a Shadow/Sage...

Edited February 24, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Waagabond]

Got more experience now, nearing BM rank, not there yet, been level 50 for 5 days (vrank 56 atm).

Had full cent and 4 pieaces of champ in 2 days. (off pieaces though).

 

At the moment got champ shottie, rakata main hand, a pieace of exo and columni gear rest cent and champ.

10% expertise at the moment since using 3 parts pve gear, including main hand weapon.

 

The day I dinged 50, with 4 parts centurion, I 1vs1 a battlemaster sorc in voidstar and killed him.

 

Now with some gear.

Yesterday in civil war I did a 1vs3 vs a merc, sorc and a marauder, the merc was in champ gear, the sorc as well, mara must been cent/champ.

 

I killed them all 3, solo.

 

In ilum, me and a scoundrel scrapper friend went out the other day and faced a team of 4 imps.

We beat then 8 times in a row, they even brought in a 5th member and we still beat them.

 

The team was mainly geared in champ or pve similar pieaces as average hp was above 15-16k.

The team in ilum was a shadow, juggernaut, merc and sorc. later an operative joined but we still killed them.

 

Skills means very much in this game, and knowing what you can and cant do with your class.

 

That said, those we faced in ilum was not very experienced in the art of PVP.

 

The simple fact that in one fight I managed to flash them all, and get a flyby on their heads, vanish and open up on their healer, said it all.

 

Ive won so many 1vs2 fights with this class I have lost count, and usually against better geared players, and often good players.

Won countless 1vs3 and my highest is 1vs4, but that have only happened once. And that was 2 sorcs 1 merc and a juggernaut.

 

This class is not overpowered, it needs energy resources for sustained damage in PVE.

But its a wicked nice class for PVP if you utliize it correctly.

 

Im grinding my way to BM to faster get champ gear and hopefully some BM gear.

 

My only disapproval of this class is the lousy stats on the PVP gear and the set bonuses is laughable.

Luckily our pve set makes up for this, with 15% crit on backblast as a meager 2 set bonus on columni and rakata. And any sane scoundrel should go for that, as more then 10% expertise is not that much required, and due to diminisihg return you dont loose much from dropping 2 pieaces of pvp gear.

 

Due to the stealth mechanic I still find that our sucker punch need a little more damage, add it to underdog talent maybe, reduce cd on flying fists e tc.

 

Above all, we need more energy regeneration.

Pugnacity and base energy reg should be increased by 50%, and our sustained damage in PVE would go up simply due to this.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Waagabond

[Waagabond]

Final note:

 

I cant begin to understand what I can do with this class when I am in full BM gear with 2 parts rakata, as now with mainly cent gear Im ripping holes into battlemasters.

Only class I need to really fight hard vs is fully BM geared sent or maras.

But once im full BM geared they wont be a problem either. At the moment its marginal and I win most but there is 1 or 2 that is hard to beat and its gear that playes their toll as they stand there with 1-5% life left when I bite the dust. And thats without cd usage, if I have cds up they stand no chance, but can camo and run away.

 

I wonder how this class was with the 20% extra damage on shoot first.

I rolled scoundrel after the nerf, to try it, and fell in love with it.

 

Surge nerged us further but Im bypassing this by stacking crit and power.

You just need surge to around 70%, after that, skip it, and max out power.

 

With my power relic and rakata power adrenal my base damage is increased by 40%.

Thats 40% more damage on crits AND none crits.

And thats more then you can get if you use a surge adrenal and surge relic, due to diminisihg retuns.

 

Power is the new surge, and far better, as it affects none crits.

You want damage: Stack power and ensure you have enough crit in the gear as well.

Surge: get what you can but as long as you have 70% your fine, above this the diminishing retun kicks in by a ton.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Waagabond

[xPsychmanx]

I my opinion, the single biggest problem with the Scoundrel is the combination of healing and close range. I mean, the Jedi Guardian classes are both Close DPS/Tanking, which ends up pretty well. But the Scoundrel can only do Healing or Close DPS, not at the same time. Whereas a Commando has Far DPS/Healing, which is actually useful.

Then there's the issue of close DPS being far more dangerous, which is bad for a team's healer.

[Edit]: The "Disappearing Act" ability (which stops combat and sends the caster into stealth) is a way to balance the the (IMO) contradictory roles the scoundrel fills. If it were not for stealth, scoundrel would be fairly useless

Edited February 24, 2012 by xPsychmanx

[DunsparrowSolo]

Waagabond, the imps on your server are either the worst Imps in the game, or you're lying. You did not win 2v5 against anyone even remotely competent. Your claims are honestly extremely foolish.

 

I just skimmed your self-aggrandizing posts, so if I missed the irony/humor then I apologize. Looked like a big diaper full.

[Ich_Bin]

@Waagabound: I have a really hard time to believe what you are writing is the truth. Either your opponents are really incompetent or you are GOD OF PVP.

Also how do you stack both crit and power? As far as I know there are not any mods that come with both. Telling us more about your gear would be much appreciated.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[DunsparrowSolo]

@Waagabound: I have a really hard time to believe what you are writing is the truth. Either your opponents are really incompetent or you are GOD OF PVP.

Also how do you stack both crit and power? As far as I know there are not any mods that come with both. Telling us more about your gear would be much appreciated.

 

Yeah that was my other question as well. You can't stack crit/power because all our enhancements have either surge or alacrity.

 

Waagabond is just a troll. More than likely he doesn't win even half his 1v1s much less 1v4 (honestly, give me a freaking break).

[powerconverter]

I seem to be doing OK in WZs as a scrapper with mostly Centurion gear. I get stomped by players that out-gear me but that's probably to be expected.

[pinkink]

i cant believe this topic still alive!

 

WHY TO ROLL A CLASS THAT GIVES U SO MUCH NEGATIVE EMOTIONS!!!

 

REROLL

[VelnikSP]

So, the TL->DR version of this entire thread is:

 

SCOUNDRELS SUCK BECAUSE I CAN FIND EXAMPLES OF OTHER CLASSES THAT CAN DO ONE PART OF WHAT WE DO IN A DIFFERENT WAY! I CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO PLAY SCOUNDRELS! THE CLASS MUST BE BROKEN! I HAVE A LEVEL 50 AND SO I KNOW EVERYTHING AND ANYONE THAT THINKS SCOUNDRELS ARE FUN OR USEFUL IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO!

 

Can we just close this tired whine thread now?