Sick of being silenced, Scoundrel/Operatives want developer feedback on the PvE nerf!

[Hamchuck]

# dev posts/replies to inquisitor/counselor boards = 78

# dev posts/replies to warrior/knight boards = 43

# dev posts/replies to bh/trooper boards = 52

# dev posts/replies to agent/smuggler boards = 3

 

 

This is really sad!

 

While it *is* sad, I think it's also reflective of how much more traffic there is in the other three sets of boards. Agents and Smugglers -- the former, particularly -- have been known to be the least played class for a while, except for that period pre-nerf when people saw the huge burst damage potential on the front end of our attacks. The agent boards used to be pretty quiet and they still kind of are. The most activity I've seen here was in the week before and after 1.1.1.

[Callmeboba]

Level 13 OP here, and I need to know if this class is still worth playing, even after le nerf.

[fixit]

You were overpowered even after the buff stacks were removed. I had 12% expertise and a champion geared Operative would open up on me and I had 10% health left by the time I got up.

 

I am wearing heavy armor as a Jugg and that was ridiculous.

 

You are a liar, only way I can think that an Op could even do that was to use consumable stacking but that was NERFED.

 

There is no way an op took out a full out PvP geared tank Jugg with 20k+ life in three shots like you claim. Admit you had no expertise and wearing greens/oranges when that happened and quit lieing, k?

 

But no worries, mate. They listen to your cries and getting us nerfed even more next patch for extra good measure.

[Tadus]

# dev posts/replies to inquisitor/counselor boards = 78

# dev posts/replies to warrior/knight boards = 43

# dev posts/replies to bh/trooper boards = 52

# dev posts/replies to agent/smuggler boards = 3

 

This is really sad!

 

We are the 1.7%!

Edited February 10, 2012 by Tadus

[Skurkanas]

We are the 1.7%!

'xept we're piss poor:D

[Oghier]

# dev posts/replies to inquisitor/counselor boards = 78

# dev posts/replies to warrior/knight boards = 43

# dev posts/replies to bh/trooper boards = 52

# dev posts/replies to agent/smuggler boards = 3

 

Gobstoppingly poor communications.

[FadeLei]

Seems like the Devs are keeping quiet on this, locking threads hoping people just get used to the idea.

 

While i really like the game im not sure i want to spend my time (and money) playing a character up only to have it constantly nerfed without good explanation or communication as to why AND without proper testing.

Not sure how proper testing of the initial nerf could take place BEFORE they altered bio chem, buff stacking and now surge. (and only a few days after they split warzones)

If all these things were changed and still Ops/Scoundrels were doing to high damage then by all means 'fix' them.

 

Bioware do you actually have a plan or are you just catering to nerf cryers because id rather not waste my time playing a game where classes are at the whim of over loud forum members rather than proper testing and open communication/discussion

 

Yes its within your right to constantly change classes to better fit 'your vision' of how things should be but its also polite and the right thing to do to keep your customers informed over changes and be willing to undertake an open dialogue over why your doing so.

Edited February 11, 2012 by FadeLei

[Jomps]

This is exactly why it was not justified.

 

Why in a story-based game with a huge PvE component should we be bullied by PvP balancing?

 

PvP has become the bane of PvE in MMOs. Sometimes I wish the PvPers could just go play some other game and stop bothering us with their senseless "balancing", or even that there was another game for us PvEers to play (sadly too many games feel they must have PvP to compete). I appreciate the fact that some people like a bit of both, but enough is enough.

 

If the game designers are intent on having one skill set with no flexibility, they should decide if they are going to balance for PvP or PvE and make a clear statement so those of us focused on one aspect can make an informed decision and leave if this game isn't for us.

 

You know this a two way thing and some ppl think that pve balancing in some cases ruins their pvp, maybe even bullies it. Just wanted to point this out since I greatly love both aspects of the game.

 

But I cannot say how much we were op and how underpowered we are now due the nerf that actualy improved my pvp experience and powers. Impossible to tell whitout combat log. WZ damage chart is in no mean compareable because mercs sorc and their republic counter parts do lot of aoe damage while we concentrate on single target burst.

 

Usualy there is a distinguishable builds for pve and pvp but in this case there isn't and that is causing this whole mess as I think if not needed toning down on pve because of pvp is not acceptable.

 

Edit: Gabe said in one interview that op was actualy doing more damage than intented and the nerf was made to bring it to it's right place. This might have been ofc just pr trick.

 

iI still enjoy playing op and the flexibility of the class is just amazing. Its nice to work as back up healer in though spots and throw a 6k heals in full dps spec.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Jomps

[Reiina]

The sorcerers doing more damage because they're doing aoe is a legend.

 

I've played a sorcerer for quite a while now and I'm topping every single warzone(not yet 50 mind you) when the only aoe I use is death field(hits 3 people for a moderate amount of damage and more importantly puts a debuff on them that will increase the damage from dots).

It's a bit similar to the lethality grenade in term of damages(except it's instant and not a dot). Ofc later I'll get the chain lightning from the lightning tree but it requires wrath(instant cast buff) to be used efficiently so I doubt it's that big a factor.

 

If you compare single target damage from sorcerer and operative, I'm quite sure the sorcerer wins. And ofc the fact that the sorcerer doesn't have to "run"(slowly) stealthed to the target, hope not to be aoed and hope not to be cced in the open while his target runs away or be pushed/etc doesn't go in his favor.

 

Also strangely enough I find that I die far less with my sorcerer, the bubble is an invaluable tool, not talking about the force speed which makes going for a green pack that much easier. I think the operative burst we had was justified because we had far less contact time and far less survivability.

 

But ofc with that burst you could take someone below 50% before they got up(if they didn't trinket it). If they didn't want that I think the whole philosophy of the class is dead.

[Jomps]

The sorcerers doing more damage because they're doing aoe is a legend.

 

I've played a sorcerer for quite a while now and I'm topping every single warzone(not yet 50 mind you) when the only aoe I use is death field(hits 3 people for a moderate amount of damage and more importantly puts a debuff on them that will increase the damage from dots).

It's a bit similar to the lethality grenade in term of damages(except it's instant and not a dot). Ofc later I'll get the chain lightning from the lightning tree but it requires wrath(instant cast buff) to be used efficiently so I doubt it's that big a factor.

 

If you compare single target damage from sorcerer and operative, I'm quite sure the sorcerer wins. And ofc the fact that the sorcerer doesn't have to "run"(slowly) stealthed to the target, hope not to be aoed and hope not to be cced in the open while his target runs away or be pushed/etc doesn't go in his favor.

 

Also strangely enough I find that I die far less with my sorcerer, the bubble is an invaluable tool, not talking about the force speed which makes going for a green pack that much easier. I think the operative burst we had was justified because we had far less contact time and far less survivability.

 

But ofc with that burst you could take someone below 50% before they got up(if they didn't trinket it). If they didn't want that I think the whole philosophy of the class is dead.

 

do you use DOTs much? Multi target DOTs will effect also score charts creatly. And of course in WZ operatives are stealthing and moving slowly so that too. Would be fun to see out of stealt dps for match .

 

And I wouldn't say sorc will be top at the damage chart always, but ofc there is some very unfavorable encounters for mele. But all this is just specuation before we actualy start to see combat logs

[pairadox]

You are a liar, only way I can think that an Op could even do that was to use consumable stacking but that was NERFED.

 

There is no way an op took out a full out PvP geared tank Jugg with 20k+ life in three shots like you claim. Admit you had no expertise and wearing greens/oranges when that happened and quit lieing, k?

 

But no worries, mate. They listen to your cries and getting us nerfed even more next patch for extra good measure.

 

Agreed.

Cant be done to a Jugg in Champ gear. Ive tried. In a mixture of champ/2 peices of cent gear (all pvp gear) I cant crit harder than around 2k on a hs on a tank.

 

I can eat dps juggernauts. They lack shielding, absorbtion, and defense.

 

So if the guy your responding too is getting eaten, its probably because hes a dps jugg. And dps jugg doesnt make you tank. Soresu doesnt make you tank. All of the above combined with gear is what makes you a tank.

 

Of course... you hit like your weilding a pillowsaber.

[SWToRBurns]

The sheer amount of crying in this thread is staggering. I was kinda caught off guard when first reading the Operative "nerf" notes for 1.1.1. But simply put, it's not that bad.

 

Post "nerf" I am doing better in pve/pvp than I was previous. This adjustment evens out the hard spike in our damage, and makes us a little less 'OMGMUSTKNIFEMOBMOAR" focus'd. Yes 99% of our damage is still in the knife, and thats the way imho Ops should play, but we are a class with tools for EVERY range, you just have to be versed in combat enough to know when to use them. Use you abilities, all of them, not just the ones that make the big pretty yellow numbers and that awesome "THWIPA" sound, and realize that Operatives are the GD James MFin Bond of the galaxy, and not some cutesy carebear taint toucher.

 

Pre - nerf in PVE I pulled threat off the tanks at will, basically anytime I backstabbed. Acid Blades Ar Pen component was staggeringly effective against high armor targets and Hidden Strike's initial burst (yes even in PVE) was simply over the top. I saw this in crap gear, you all should have seen it as well unless you had HK-47s as your raid/FP co-Dps.

 

I run nearly everything with a Annihilation Marauder. After this week we ran some FPs, and even tho my 5 pieces of champ gear trump his, he is literally one of the best mara's I've played with, and we blow things up so fast it's like running Wrath Heroics in Cata gear.

I have no problems destroying any HM FP boss we have come accross, and only hit enrages, if both me and my Marauder buddy die early.

 

No one has hard data on PVE damage, except BW. If you don't like your "performance" or a guild sat you from raids, imho, it's most likely not a nerf issues, as much a pebkac one.

 

Just the thoughts of one Operative that refuses to lay down, Reps 4 man focus fire me in pvp even in knife spec, imps ask me to join their FP/Op/guild because they respect my damage output, even tho I am a guild officer.

 

Learn to adapt or reroll, less QQ moar pew pew

[Tokosteef]

The sheer amount of crying in this thread is staggering. I was kinda caught off guard when first reading the Operative "nerf" notes for 1.1.1. But simply put, it's not that bad.

 

Post "nerf" I am doing better in pve/pvp than I was previous.

 

Pre - nerf in PVE I pulled threat off the tanks at will, basically anytime I backstabbed. Acid Blades Ar Pen component was staggeringly effective against high armor targets and Hidden Strike's initial burst (yes even in PVE) was simply over the top. I saw this in crap gear, you all should have seen it as well unless you had HK-47s as your raid/FP co-Dps.

No one has hard data on PVE damage, except BW. If you don't like your "performance" or a guild sat you from raids, imho, it's most likely not a nerf issues, as much a pebkac one.

 

 

You are claiming to be better at PVE because you deal less damage now?

Have you ever heard of aggro reduction skills, or aggro management?

 

Ugh, the stupidity, it hurts..

Edited February 11, 2012 by Tokosteef

[Hamchuck]

I can eat dps juggernauts. They lack shielding, absorbtion, and defense.

 

 

You'd eat them even if they HAD shielding, absorption and defense. None of those work against kinetic attacks, which is what your knives do.

[Jomps]

You are claiming to be better at PVE because you deal less damage now?

Have you ever heard of aggro reduction skills, or aggro management?

 

Ugh, the stupidity, it hurts..

 

 

If you have tone down your damage on encounters for not to over agro, I would say were are doing enough damage right? But as was said their explanation was that operatives were doing too much damage begin with. But not sure how true that is. Maybe the pve nerf was to ment more for pve but it's impossible to tell whitout combat logs.

[Jagerinho]

You honestly cannot complain about PvE damage until damage meters are in the game.

 

All I'm seeing is the same rubbish about losing 20% armour pen, well maybe you're PvE damage was too much, and the 20% armour pen reduction has brought your PvE damage in line with everyone else's.

 

Prove me wrong.

[Shwoop]

If you have tone down your damage on encounters for not to over agro, I would say were are doing enough damage right? But as was said their explanation was that operatives were doing too much damage begin with. But not sure how true that is. Maybe the pve nerf was to ment more for pve but it's impossible to tell whitout combat logs.

 

All I'm seeing is the same rubbish about losing 20% armour pen, well maybe you're PvE damage was too much, and the 20% armour pen reduction has brought your PvE damage in line with everyone else's.

 

 

They were saying we did too much burst damage during a PvP fight causing the encounter to end too soon for their intentions.

 

If you're going to say "They said we were nerfed because of...." at least get it right. We have enough people muddying up the waters and over exaggerating the situation as it is.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Shwoop

[Jagerinho]

They were saying we did too much burst damage during a PvP fight causing the encounter to end too soon for their intentions.

 

If you're going to say "They said we were nerfed because of...." at least get it right. We have enough people muddying up the waters and over exaggerating the situation as it is.

 

you're damage was brought into line with everyone elses, regardless if its PvP or PvE.

 

Damage is damage, in PvP or PvE.

[Colow_Leper]

Biggest ****-up in any MMO is trying to balance PvP whilst keeping PvE good - Blizzard couldn't do it, they're still fiddling with it years after launch. I remember my paladin getting nerfed patch after patch to the point where he was so completely useless for raiding that I didn't play him for about 18 months.

 

Really the only way is either to have different effects when in warzones - but that doesn't work very well in open world PvP - or to have different effect when targetting player characters (at least then you can leave the PvE stuff alone).

 

The thing is, is BW/EA didn't put this functionality in at the start, then don't hold your breath - you'll be lucky if it's brought in by 1.3 or even 1.4.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Colow_Leper

[Jagerinho]

Biggest ****-up in any MMO is trying to balance PvP whilst keeping PvE good - Blizzard couldn't do it, they're still fiddling with it years after launch. I remember my paladin getting nerfed patch after patch to the point where he was so completely useless for raiding that I didn't play him for about 18 months.

 

Really the only way is either to have different effects when in warzones - but that doesn't work very well in open world PvP - or to have different effect when targetting player characters (at least then you can leave the PvE stuff alone).

 

Prove to me your PvE damage is worse then anyone else's.

[Colow_Leper]

Prove to me your PvE damage is worse then anyone else's.

 

Eh?

 

a) Why should I?

 

b) What does it matter?

 

c) I don't have one of the class!

 

d) It doesn't matter if a particular class has more damage in PvE - but it would cause problems in PvP, so........

 

What I was saying (if you would like to actually read the post (assuming you can - I realise that English isn't everone's first language on here - some of 'em speak American!)) is that trying to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time doesn't work!

 

Actually, I suppose, someone *might* be able to do it - but no one seems to have successfully done it so far.

 

Edit

 

And I can pretty much guarantee that my PvE damage is less - my 50th is a Jedi Guardian tank......

Edited February 11, 2012 by Colow_Leper

[Jagerinho]

Eh?

 

a) Why should I?

 

b) What does it matter?

 

c) I don't have one of the class!

 

d) It doesn't matter if a particular class has more damage in PvE - but it would cause problems in PvP, so........

 

What I was saying (if you would like to actually read the post (assuming you can - I realise that English isn't everone's first language on here - some of 'em speak American!)) is that trying to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time doesn't work!

 

Actually, I suppose, someone *might* be able to do it - but no one seems to have successfully done it so far.

 

Edit

 

And I can pretty much guarantee that my PvE damage is less - my 50th is a Jedi Guardian tank......

 

I didn't really read your post, because its the usual whine with no fact to back up your claims, fortunately I've saved face because your follow up post is even more ridiculous than your first.

 

Anyway, if you're saying it can't be done, why are you complaining? Or are you complaining so that hopefully that this special "someone" will be hired to balance PvP and PvE damage? If it can't be done surely you should either stop playing because it is an impossible task or get over it and move on - don't care what you do either way.

 

"You can pretty much guarantee" isn't proof.

 

Thanks for schooling me in the English language, though.

[BoneEater]

Well, I think we all know by now that Bioware-Mythic is quick on deleting/editing posts or closing threads about real issues, and is taking it's sweet, sweet time to properly address them.

 

I honestly think though that Bioware should have never collaborated with Mythic. I believe they are at fault here and that they have their head up their arse in certain aspects, this one particularly.

 

I'll just leave this here:

 

 

Warhammer Engineer here: History is going in circles. Still waiting for the tiniest boost to the weakest class since beta.

 

The interview with Gabe was perfect. No meat, barely any bone, mostly of hot air.

 

Do not hold your breath waiting for a solid explanation, a "Sorry, looks like we missed some aspect of the game." or even an adjustment in favor of the operatives any time soon.

[Colow_Leper]

I didn't really read your post, because its the usual whine with no fact to back up your claims, fortunately I've saved face because your follow up post is even more ridiculous than your first.

 

Anyway, if you're saying it can't be done, why are you complaining? Or are you complaining so that hopefully that this special "someone" will be hired to balance PvP and PvE damage? If it can't be done surely you should either stop playing because it is an impossible task or get over it and move on - don't care what you do either way.

 

"You can pretty much guarantee" isn't proof.

 

Thanks for schooling me in the English language, though.

 

*sigh* I'll try just once more

 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - if so, I'm sorry.

 

Look - I actually don't do PvP, I don't like PvP - I find it pointless in the extreme (personal view - not trying to influence any of the thousands of people that love it). But what happens when some character class is deemed to do too much damage in PvP? *WAAA* go the PvP players - and so the class has it's damage reduced (as per your tag line from The Escapist review).

 

Off we go to a raid/FP/OP/Heroic (whatever) -

 

" 'ere Bob, how come your character seems to be doing less damage than the healers? You used to be our main damage dealer!"

 

"Oh, well, this class was doing too much damage in PvP - so they nerfed it"

 

"But you don't do PvP!"

 

"I know *shrug* but what can you do? I'm going to reroll a <insert name of some other class here>"

 

THAT'S what I meant - you change a class in either PvP or PvE, and the other side of the activity gets affected (even if the player doesn't even participate in it!).

 

THAT'S why I hate seeing nerfs - not because I have *anything* to do with PvP - but because I don't want changes to the PvP balance causing problems with the PvE.

 

It doubly doesn't affect me because I haven't, as yet, rolled one of this class - I just don't want to see it set a precedent.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Colow_Leper

[Jagerinho]

*sigh* I'll try just once more

 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear - if so, I'm sorry.

 

Look - I actually don't do PvP, I don't like PvP - I find it pointless in the extreme (personal view - not trying to influence any of the thousands of people that love it). But what happens when some character class is deemed to do too much damage in PvP? *WAAA* go the PvP players - and so the class has it's damage reduced (as per your tag line from The Escapist review).

 

Off we go to a raid/FP/OP/Heroic (whatever) -

 

" 'ere BoB, how come your character seems to be doing less damage than the healers? You used to be our main damage dealer!"

 

"Oh, well, this class was doing too much damage in PvP - so they nerfed it"

 

"But you don't do PvP!"

 

"I know *shrug* but what can you do? I'm going to reroll a <insert name of some other class here>"

 

THAT'S what I meant - you change a class in either PvP or PvE, and the other side of the activity gets affected (even if the player doesn't even participate in it!).

 

THAT'S why I hate seeing nerfs - not because I have *anything* to do with PvP - but because I don't want changes to the PvP balance causing problems with the PvE.

 

It doubly doesn't affect me because I haven't, as yet, rolled one of this class - I just don't want to see it set a precedent.

 

Nice analogies, real cute.

 

but you still haven't proven to me or anyone that operative's PvE damage is worse off than anyone else's.

 

SURE it's probably lower then it was before, but why should you be doing more damage then other classes in PvE?

 

also the fact you don't even play the class, you are just whining for the sake of it really puts the cherry on top.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Jagerinho