Ranged vs. Melee: Balance in 1 change

[Tiresias]

KILL AUTOFACE WITH FIRE.

 

This will resolve most of the issue. I promise.

[Mooseb]

Before telling me how to play my class, it would be helpful if you knew what class I was, considering that's not even an ability I have.

 

Well then step up to the plate and we can your out a way for you to deal with your Sniper / Gunslinger problem

 

Crying about it isn't going to get you anywhere

[Mooseb]

KILL AUTOFACE WITH FIRE.

 

This will resolve most of the issue. I promise.

 

No it won't Instead it creates the following issue

 

Me< Sniper

 

I see target approaching, i begin channel (Snipe/ Ambush)

 

Target runs through me, i now need to Leave cover and reposition facing 180 degrees behind me to deal with threat.

 

I leave and re enter to re-engage target, he runs behind me again, I Again have to leave cover and re-position to re-engage target.

 

Any smart player will continue to do this meaning that a sniper/gunslinger has to move, considering a Root/snare will stop me from re-entering cover in order to defend myself (Who knew that even when i CANT go anywhere, but i don't want to move but just take a knee at the place im rooted at....oh wait i can't)

 

Out of Cover these two AC take a 70% DPS loss

 

2 specs in the Sniper/Gunslinger class get restricted to PVE only

 

Sniper/Gunslinger Advanced Classes need complete redesign

 

Tell me, why did WOW add auto-face for people who had channel abilities

[NekoWAR]

 

Open your skill tab, and ENSURE "Force Push" is on your tool bar, pushes a sniper/gunslinger down on his arse (out of cover) and guess what? finishes your force charge ability.

 

CHARGE AWAY!!!!

 

*Opens marauders skill tab*

*Looks for the "Force push"*

*Blinks helplessly*

[Meiu]

so you want to give us absolutely no offense when we are in melee range when melees already have the advantage? would you like an "i win" button as well?

 

You mean, give me 30m saber attacks that stack a bleeding debuff that heals me when it crits. Allow me to use all my attacks at range.

 

"so you want to give us absolutely no offense when we are at ranged when range already has the advantage? would you like an "i win" button as well?"

[McVade]

Well then step up to the plate and we can your out a way for you to deal with your Sniper / Gunslinger problem

 

Crying about it isn't going to get you anywhere

 

Considering the horrible advice you just gave me when you assumed I was a Jedi Guardian, I'm pretty sure I'd flatten you no problem. I'll get tips from good gunslingers/snipers, thanks anyway.

Edited February 6, 2012 by McVade

[Mooseb]

*Opens marauders skill tab*

*Looks for the "Force push"*

*Blinks helplessly*

 

Force Camouflage would be your best case in 1 vs 1, dont approach me head on, in open sight....Please

[Mooseb]

Considering the horrible advice you just gave me when you assumed I was a Jedi Guardian, I'm pretty sure I'd flatten you no problem. I'll get tips from good gunslingers/snipers, thanks anyway.

 

Considering you came to the forums crying about your lack of skill in the first place, i leave you to dreams of crushing me........

 

Good luck....by your own posting....you'll need it

[NekoWAR]

Force Camouflage would be your best case in 1 vs 1, dont approach me head on, in open sight....Please

 

Yep, approach in force camo, so when you will be knockbacked and rooted, you have nothing to do apart from staring at the guy who shoots in your face ^^.

[Mooseb]

Yep, approach in force camo, so when you will be knockbacked and rooted, you have nothing to do apart from staring at the guy who shoots in your face ^^.

 

I hear escape, Force choke (Also pulls me out of cover) Force charge / Obliterate may work in your favour....

 

Remember, go into a fight expecting to pop everything in your arsenel, Any half arse attempts by ME have got me killed plenty of times

[Cegenaus]

Hypothetically speaking, how's that different from attacking a melee from ranged, especially if you are a Sniper/Gunslinger, who gets basic immunity to all gap closers built into his class? Sit on a bridge in Huttball, enjoy pissing on anyone who passes beneath you, free to snipe of any pesky melee in the center for 5-6k a hit, each of which can't attack you back.

 

I don't actually believe ranged need a minimum distance, but I think something needs to give. SWTOR is about the most melee unfriendly PvP atmosphere I've ever experienced. Whether it's Ilum or Huttball, these places seemed to be built with the first and foremost attention given to melee not having fun.

 

first of all i am not a sniper and i do not crit for 5-6k. second, id say its about the same as voidstar and alderaan where my knockback prolongs my life for about 3 more seconds since i dont have enough tools to escape a melee on a flat playing surface. thats right you have TWO wzs to dominate in, i get half of one which can work against my favor btw since some melee have force push and i dont have a pull/leap to get back up to them

 

Arsenals are pure dps classes? When did THAT nerf happen?

 

explain to me what else we have then. heals? tank? cc?

 

You mean, give me 30m saber attacks that stack a bleeding debuff that heals me when it crits. Allow me to use all my attacks at range.

 

"so you want to give us absolutely no offense when we are at ranged when range already has the advantage? would you like an "i win" button as well?"

 

lol i think you are mistaken, i am not the one making an argument for an "i win" button, i am dispelling one. like i said, you can have ranged attacks if i can have melee attacks that do the same damage and cost the same amount of heat as my ranged attacks, this is called balance my friend

[longgrassgrows]

...that is ridiculous...once a melee get in close, they have a overwhelming advantage...without a minimum range.

 

...or at least you should, if not that player is simply better.

Edited February 6, 2012 by longgrassgrows

[Tiresias]

No it won't Instead it creates the following issue

 

Me< Sniper

 

I see target approaching, i begin channel (Snipe/ Ambush)

 

Target runs through me, i now need to Leave cover and reposition facing 180 degrees behind me to deal with threat.

 

I leave and re enter to re-engage target, he runs behind me again, I Again have to leave cover and re-position to re-engage target.

 

Any smart player will continue to do this meaning that a sniper/gunslinger has to move, considering a Root/snare will stop me from re-entering cover in order to defend myself (Who knew that even when i CANT go anywhere, but i don't want to move but just take a knee at the place im rooted at....oh wait i can't)

 

Out of Cover these two AC take a 70% DPS loss

 

2 specs in the Sniper/Gunslinger class get restricted to PVE only

 

Sniper/Gunslinger Advanced Classes need complete redesign

 

Tell me, why did WOW add auto-face for people who had channel abilities

 

Have you considered for even one second that you aren't supposed to cast Snipe at people in melee range?

 

Let me say that again more slowly and in a different way:

 

Being able to cast Snipe.

Against a target that is in melee range.

And hitting you in the face with Lightsabers.

While you are immune to interrupts.

And have a 33% up-time immunity to all CC effects.

IS THE PROBLEM IN QUESTION

 

You can do THINGS to open up from melee range, rendering a melee class useless as long as you are outside of 4m.

 

However, once that melee class is within 4m of you, you lose NO effectiveness WHATSOEVER. Hell, you don't even have to worry about interrupts as a Sniper because you are IMMUNE to them.

 

And don't you even cite WoW's PvP as an example for anything. That game's PvP system is a total abortion now.

[Mamono]

There's a reason why the 10-49 brackets are filled completely with ranged classes on most servers.

 

There's basically zero disadvantage to playing a range class right now.

 

Try play an Bounty Hunter Merc. You have no melee cabability. If a melee class gets into melee range of a Merc, that merc is dead, more or less. Unless he can knock that melee character off some edge. And that is only in huttball. Any other place, any other WZ, that Merc is dead.

 

If a merc is left alone, me may deal a some damage, but you only need 1 player to take down 1 merc.

Most melee classes has some kinda pull, or jump or stealth or ton of stuns and slowing ability other ways to get into melee range. Merc's has no ability to keep a melee class on ranged.

A LvL 12 operative can beat the living daylight out of a 49 Merc with no problem.

[Tiresias]

...that is ridiculous...once a melee get in close, they have a overwhelming advantage...without a minimum range.

 

...or at least you should, if not that player is simply better.

 

They have a MAXIMUM range.

 

You cannot seriously be that dense!

 

Melee is nearly USELESS outside of 4m. Ranged has 25m of advantage over a melee class (possibly 30 if you are the right class), but once melee steps into melee range they get to do damage... and that's it!

 

Being in melee range doesn't shut off ranged attack.

Being in melee range doesn't cause auto-interrupts to casted abilities.

Being in melee range doesn't result in an automatic damage drop to ranged abilities.

 

Seriously, you can't even deny the problem anymore because EVERYONE is away of the Tracer Missile-spamming Mercs that auto-face the melee classes. No reason to kite when you can just kill them before they can do anything of note back to you!

[Tiresias]

Try play an Bounty Hunter Merc. You have no melee cabability. If a melee class gets into melee range of a Merc, that merc is dead, more or less. Unless he can knock that melee character off some edge. And that is only in huttball. Any other place, any other WZ, that Merc is dead.

 

If a merc is left alone, me may deal a some damage, but you only need 1 player to take down 1 merc.

Most melee classes has some kinda pull, or jump or stealth or ton of stuns and slowing ability other ways to get into melee range. Merc's has no ability to keep a melee class on ranged.

A LvL 12 operative can beat the living daylight out of a 49 Merc with no problem.

 

Did they nerf Mercs? Because I was under the impression that they had:

 

Knockback plus powerful snare.

Stun.

25% universal damage reduction cooldown.

15% health regen over time cooldown.

An instant attack or heal on a 2-minute cooldown active.

~33% damage reduction through armor.

 

Nobody.

Believes.

Your lies.

Anymore.

[Gformutorila]

[sarcasm]

Yes Snipers really need to be nerfed vs melee they are OP atm.

[/sarcasm]

[Mooseb]

Have you considered for even one second that you aren't supposed to cast Snipe at people in melee range?

 

Let me say that again more slowly and in a different way:

 

Being able to cast Snipe.

Against a target that is in melee range.

And hitting you in the face with Lightsabers.

While you are immune to interrupts.

And have a 33% up-time immunity to all CC effects.

IS THE PROBLEM IN QUESTION

 

You can do THINGS to open up from melee range, rendering a melee class useless as long as you are outside of 4m.

 

However, once that melee class is within 4m of you, you lose NO effectiveness WHATSOEVER. Hell, you don't even have to worry about interrupts as a Sniper because you are IMMUNE to them.

 

And don't you even cite WoW's PvP as an example for anything. That game's PvP system is a total abortion now.

 

Have you considered that

 

Using a Gap Closer

From 30 metres away

To Avoid getting pummeled via range (being that most ranged classes range Max is at 30m, Sniper, only 35m)

is a bit wierd?

 

Hence why the cover mechanic was born---->Balance

 

 

Have you considered running through someone, "bunny Hoping" as its called at the speed that most games allow it to, while a slap in the face to physics and anyone trying to do it in real life would fall flat on their face from being too dizzy?

 

Weird too?? Pray they dont allow player collision,

 

 

Hunter Deadzone

Was removed

Cause it was the most retarded gimick in WOW

that left them vunerable???

 

By your post

 

Im suppose to run away, meanwhile your using all your cooldowns to close the gap, snare, escape my snares,roots, whilst doing damage, 70% less than what i do?

 

What Overload shot? No im sorry Rifle Shot? My gimped out of cover MM abilities against your Full 100% ones

 

The difference between a Snipers and another classes Uptime in the current system and your suggested system is that

 

A sniper has full 100% uptime against a target that is approaching and when its on the sniper. The Same targets uptime is 0% and rising as he closes in on the target peaking at 100% when his in melee range, what happens now is up to the players plan of attack, who can outplay the other, currently

 

 

Your system will have the Sniper starting at 100% but dropping to whatever he can put out with overload shot and rifle shot once the Melee reaches the sniper, Unless the sniper moves out of cover, the melee will keep on him. Once out of Cover Say goodbye to all that immuntiy, as you move away to attempt to gain range, yeah, say hello to a whole lot of hurt.

 

 

Yes WOWs PVP system is a Total Abortion..which explains why MOST other MMOs these days have Autofacing for channel type ablities...cause they all found out that the method you are supporting....FAILED miserabley

 

Casters finally got a chance against rogues and warriors in that game as a result, no more running through for a Free, No resource, NO cooldown required interupt

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mooseb

[mandrillagon]

Its annoying hearing ranged classes saying things like "We're supposed to be turrets and hard to kill, our mobility sucks".

 

Considering ranged classes do as much or more damage than melee why be limited to 4-10 meters range? The 30 meters range I have now switching to a turret/knockback class, 35 meters with shock/chain lightning is so much easier to manage. I can tab target anyone i want to fry in 30-35meters range.

 

Melee gets close to me? Knockback and force lightning slows them. Melee is still alive and takes down my bubble? My bubble stuns upon depletion. Melee still alive? I use one of several stuns at my disposal.. melee still trying to engage me? Knockback definitely should be recharged by now and spam force lightning. I feel sorry for melee.

 

At least playing a melee class has really made me feel like I'm in easy mode and maybe have an appreciation I wouldn't have had otherwise for being a ranged/knockback/dps turret.

Edited February 6, 2012 by mandrillagon

[Aetou]

considering melee seems to have close to 75% uptime on me, at the worst (as a sniper) there's nothing wrong with melee.

 

nothing.

 

If Melee have 75% uptime then they should do 135% of the dps of a ranged class to balance that out so that they have the same overall, average dps. The issue is that ranged dps do basically the same damage, have better cc (with longer range on that too) and have only slightly worse survivability a lot of the time.

 

There is a reason that Sorcerors & Bounty Hunters make up the majority of WZs and why for raids Ranged DPS is preferred over melee DPS every time. The balance between the two just isn't there currently (even if certain melee builds, like Scrappers, were also unbalanced) and it does need to be tweaked somehow. Whether that is by increasing Melee DPS in their ideal conditions, reducing ranged DPS in their less-than-ideal conditions or something else is open to debate but when one or two classes are favoured by the playerbase to the extent that they are it's a pretty clear sign that things aren't well balanced.

[Vales]

Yeah thats why every WZ is packed with warriors and powertechs.

 

Oh wait...

 

I had quite a few games with tons of them so shush.

[Jesmcalli]

No it won't Instead it creates the following issue

 

Me< Sniper

 

I see target approaching, i begin channel (Snipe/ Ambush)

 

Target runs through me, i now need to Leave cover and reposition facing 180 degrees behind me to deal with threat.

 

I leave and re enter to re-engage target, he runs behind me again, I Again have to leave cover and re-position to re-engage target.

 

Any smart player will continue to do this meaning that a sniper/gunslinger has to move, considering a Root/snare will stop me from re-entering cover in order to defend myself (Who knew that even when i CANT go anywhere, but i don't want to move but just take a knee at the place im rooted at....oh wait i can't)

 

Out of Cover these two AC take a 70% DPS loss

 

2 specs in the Sniper/Gunslinger class get restricted to PVE only

 

Sniper/Gunslinger Advanced Classes need complete redesign

 

Tell me, why did WOW add auto-face for people who had channel abilities

 

Funny, that *other* MMO doesn't have autoface, and yet casters/ranged still manage to nuke. SWTOR has more CC than any two MMOs combined, ranged should have to use them judiciously to buy some breathing room. At SWTOR's current state, they don't really have to. Factor in that at any given time, a melee is probably eating aoe/CC/knockbacks/snares from other sources while s/he is closing the gap to you, getting casts off shouldn't be a problem. Oh, and channeled is different from casted.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Jesmcalli

[Arden]

Um, LOS until within range, run behind ranged class so the can't attack and then kill them.

 

R&R

[Cegenaus]

...that is ridiculous...once a melee get in close, they have a overwhelming advantage...without a minimum range.

 

...or at least you should, if not that player is simply better.

 

this.

 

Did they nerf Mercs? Because I was under the impression that they had:

 

Knockback plus powerful snare.

Stun.

25% universal damage reduction cooldown.

15% health regen over time cooldown.

An instant attack or heal on a 2-minute cooldown active.

~33% damage reduction through armor.

 

Nobody.

Believes.

Your lies.

Anymore.

 

guess what we dont have?

 

20 sec cd bubble that can be specced to take more damage/stun/hot

incombat speed boost

snare on a 4 sec cd

stealth

leap/pull/push and the ability for our leap to proc another movement modifying ability

knockback with a root

an ability to increase crit

interrupt

 

yeah merc is pretty op id say...

Edited February 6, 2012 by Cegenaus

[ltankhsd]

As a powertech I have no problems staying in melee range with my jet charge, grapple and rocket punch snare. It is nice to have ranged options though.

 

I also play a 30ish Marauder and once again I don't see a problem. You get force leap and a spammable snare. It's really not that hard to stay in melee range.