Never have I tried so hard to like a game

[Traumahawk]

I think the other issue here is that Bioware have created a game that suits a certain type of gamer, people that have different expectations get disappointed and want it changed to suit them, I'm not criticising anyone but I am taking the game as a new game and for what it is.

 

I'm not expecting it to be any other game nor comply to any pre-set standards, if I don't like the game I'll stop playing and buy a different one. At the moment I'm enjoying it and am quite satisfied.

 

I felt the same way, though my confidence eroded over time. I'm not going to tell everyone that "it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN", but even those that love the story, may find themselves playing a game that has lost a lot of its fun collateral given enough time. Of course, I have no idea what the tastes of other players are, but we aren't debating over art styles or genre..it's about content that keeps you entranced for the long haul. I am curious to see what happens when a lot of the players that take it more slowly, finally reach endgame. And also, when they have found that they really don't need to rehash the same dialogue they experienced with their other 3 characters.

[Wythias]

After thinking about it another thing that bugs me is that unlike WoW, you don't have another zone, or two to go to in case you need a bit more experience, or don't enjoy a certain zone. That to me is like the biggest small thing that I really wish was different, because I think if that was possible I would go back to my Marauder right now, and start leveling him. I miss Quinn, and his side story a lot, he to me is the best companion I have yet to encounter....

[Lazzer]

I am missing the epic pvp fights i use to have over herb and mining nodes in WoW. I wish there was some world pvp in this game. Gathering was so much fun with enemy faction around back in WoW.

 

Also crafting materials are not as noteworthy as they were in WoW. Back in WoW it had some meaning to gather Black Lotus or Frost lotus, Lichblooms etc. Here in swtor crafting materials are barely noticeable, all the nodes look more or less the same though the crafting material you get from them varies and is completely forgettable.

 

I have maxed out my Bioanalysis / Biochem / Diplomacy but i barely remember the names of the ingredients i used to make stims, medpacs, implants etc.

 

I don't see this as a design issue, there is nothing stopping maxed out players turing up on Tatooine, Ilum or Hoth and starting battles, rival guilds meeting and staging conflicts.

 

Nobody does because nobody wants to organise it, I remember way back when when guild events did not just consist or raiding. We used to run naked foot races across PvP landscapes with a sweepstake on who would cross the line 1st.

[Traumahawk]

After thinking about it another thing that bugs me is that unlike WoW, you don't have another zone, or two to go to in case you need a bit more experience, or don't enjoy a certain zone. That to me is like the biggest small thing that I really wish was different, because I think if that was possible I would go back to my Marauder right now, and start leveling him. I miss Quinn, and his side story a lot, he to me is the best companion I have yet to encounter....

 

Yes, this too. Alternate paths and what I call topping-off quests. It's a huge problem with linearity and freedom. Not to jump on the pile, but I think it's worth mentioning that you aren't the only one very disappointed with this lack of choice.

[Uruare]

I think the other issue here is that Bioware have created a game that suits a certain type of gamer, people that have different expectations get disappointed and want it changed to suit them, I'm not criticising anyone but I am taking the game as a new game and for what it is.

 

 

 

Can't really help it. I've played WoW before, in my case. Trying to tell me, or any other WoW vet, that SWTOR is a new game is like trying to tell someone that the Honda Civic is nothing like the Toyota Corolla.

 

TOR's got immersive storytelling as its only defining 'thing' really setting it apart. It's not the only game with a story emphasis; WoW's got a staggering heap of lore and story. Champions Online has a whole tabletop game's legacy of lore and story behind it. City of Heroes has a heap of some of the grittier and least 'campy' superhero/supervillain story and lore on the MMO market. DCUO has the entire Marvel IP behind it -and- voice acting out the wazoo. LotrO has its epic saga that rather creatively carves an occasionally bisecting parallel with the Lord of the Rings IP.

 

The list could go on into crazy lengths, but I'm gonna stick to the MMO's I have the most familiarity with for relevance's sake.

 

They all have anywhere from a heap to a towering mountain of story to them. Story isn't new; lore isn't new. Heck, see LotrO for an MMO that's been around for five years with a similarly huge IP behind it. See Star Trek Online for another one.

 

 

So please, don't look down your nose too hard at those of us that have our heads tilted at a funny angle with unimpressed looks on our digital faces for how very, very similar to rides we've ridden before this new ride looks, acts and feels.

 

We're really only perceiving the obvious, and that its so obvious...doesn't make some of us happy.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Uruare

[Traumahawk]

I don't see this as a design issue, there is nothing stopping maxed out players turing up on Tatooine, Ilum or Hoth and starting battles, rival guilds meeting and staging conflicts.

 

Nobody does because nobody wants to organise it, I remember way back when when guild events did not just consist or raiding. We used to run naked foot races across PvP landscapes with a sweepstake on who would cross the line 1st.

 

I would say that the biggest obstacle that prevents players from doing this is the highly instanced world and slow (often tedious and aggrivating) travel system. There is no way in hell I'm going to:

 

DK-->Spaceport-->Elevator-->Hangar-->Ship-->Map-->Ship-->Hangar-->Elevator-->3min loading screen-->Run through spaceport-->Mount-->Travel across town to FP-->Ride speeder-->Arrive at PvP spot only to find it's in another instance or the event is over.

 

In other games it was a bit more simple:

 

Global channel "Help, the opposing faction attacks!"

 

Go to nearest FP-->Arrive at closest town-->Mount up and fight.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Traumahawk

[Lazzer]

Yes, this too. Alternate paths and what I call topping-off quests. It's a huge problem with linearity and freedom. Not to jump on the pile, but I think it's worth mentioning that you aren't the only one very disappointed with this lack of choice.

 

It's the downside of replacing grinding with story, if leveling was just standing in one spot and pulling 1000 mobs one after another then you could produce multiple zones for each level but it's been replaced by story and that leaves it very linear.

 

You could always find a camp and level the old fashioned way but that's not so attractive.

[Wythias]

Yes, this too. Alternate paths and what I call topping-off quests. It's a huge problem with linearity and freedom. Not to jump on the pile, but I think it's worth mentioning that you aren't the only one very disappointed with this lack of choice.

 

Wow really? I haven't really heard anyone talk about it, and after I finally got level headed from the grind I started to think of things that differ from the MMOs I have played, and this game. So far that has to be the biggest thing. I mean could you imagine a Outland with just Hellfire, Zangamarsh, and Nagrand That would mean you would have to do every single quest, and maybe even a few groups to get to 70 comfortably... That's the way I feel about Swtor right now, but I am still cooling off from my rage.

[Traumahawk]

It's the downside of replacing grinding with story, if leveling was just standing in one spot and pulling 1000 mobs one after another then you could produce multiple zones for each level but it's been replaced by story and that leaves it very linear.

 

You could always find a camp and level the old fashioned way but that's not so attractive.

 

I don't think this has to be a Hobson's choice here. Just because it's not like EQ, doesn't mean it has to be this way either. Part of my $60.00 should pay for developers to innovate and synthesize good ideas and watch for trends from other games.

[Llann]

Tor is what it is, now.

 

A lot of people, myself included, wanted it to be something else.

 

Playing the game, you discover that it isn't, and you get over it. =/

[Wythias]

It's the downside of replacing grinding with story, if leveling was just standing in one spot and pulling 1000 mobs one after another then you could produce multiple zones for each level but it's been replaced by story and that leaves it very linear.

 

You could always find a camp and level the old fashioned way but that's not so attractive.

 

Not grinding, just alternatives, and it's not like you need a class quest to tell you to go there. You could just have a NPC, or something in the fleet that gives you a quest to let you know it's there, and to get you started on the alternative. It would make a soloers life a million times easier because they could level there way without having to do the group quests to get a comfortable buffer.

[Lazzer]

Can't really help it. I've played WoW before, in my case. Trying to tell me, or any other WoW vet, that SWTOR is a new game is like trying to tell someone that the Honda Civic is nothing like the Toyota Corolla.

 

TOR's got immersive storytelling as its only defining 'thing' really setting it apart. It's not the only game with a story emphasis; WoW's got a staggering heap of lore and story. Champions Online has a whole tabletop game's legacy of lore and story behind it. City of Heroes has a heap of some of the grittier and least 'campy' superhero/supervillain story and lore on the MMO market. DCUO has the entire Marvel IP behind it -and- voice acting out the wazoo. LotrO has its epic saga that rather creatively carves an occasionally bisecting parallel with the Lord of the Rings IP.

 

The list could go on into crazy lengths, but I'm gonna stick to the MMO's I have the most familiarity with for relevance's sake.

 

They all have anywhere from a heap to a towering mountain of story to them. Story isn't new; lore isn't new. Heck, see LotrO for an MMO that's been around for five years with a similarly huge IP behind it. See Star Trek Online for another one.

 

 

So please, don't look down your nose too hard at those of us that have our heads tilted at a funny angle with unimpressed looks on our digital faces for how very, very similar to rides we've ridden before this new ride looks, acts and feels.

 

We're really only perceiving the obvious, and that its so obvious...doesn't make some of us happy.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not looking down at anyone, I think the issue is that TOR uses the WoW systems like talent trees ect. This in turn reminds you of WoW but doesn't match up entirely leaving you disappointed.

 

Coming from other games (including almost 8 years of Everquest) I've never played with the talent tress so for me this is a new game, I did play LotRO for about a year and enjoyed the story so much it was one of the main draws for this game and the story hasn't disappointed me yet.

[Traumahawk]

Wow really? I haven't really heard anyone talk about it, and after I finally got level headed from the grind I started to think of things that differ from the MMOs I have played, and this game. So far that has to be the biggest thing. I mean could you imagine a Outland with just Hellfire, Zangamarsh, and Nagrand That would mean you would have to do every single quest, and maybe even a few groups to get to 70 comfortably... That's the way I feel about Swtor right now, but I am still cooling off from my rage.

 

If you have ever played EQ2, then you know that it has even more choice---sometimes too much in the early levels. I loved it though..I would take a character and sometimes travel half way across the world, just so I could level in another race's starting zone. It kept me going and gave me more options. I think a lot of people would agree with you.

[Lazzer]

Not grinding, just alternatives, and it's not like you need a class quest to tell you to go there. You could just have a NPC, or something in the fleet that gives you a quest to let you know it's there, and to get you started on the alternative. It would make a soloers life a million times easier because they could level there way without having to do the group quests to get a comfortable buffer.

 

At the end of the day the planets are huge, the same thing could be accomplished by setting up smaller zones on each planet with different mob types.

[Lazzer]

I would say that the biggest obstacle that prevents players from doing this is the highly instanced world and slow (often tedious and aggrivating) travel system. There is no way in hell I'm going to:

 

DK-->Spaceport-->Elevator-->Hangar-->Ship-->Map-->Ship-->Hangar-->Elevator-->3min loading screen-->Run through spaceport-->Mount-->Travel across town to FP-->Ride speeder-->Arrive at PvP spot only to find it's in another instance or the event is over.

 

In other games it was a bit more simple:

 

Global channel "Help, the opposing faction attacks!"

 

Go to nearest FP-->Arrive at closest town-->Mount up and fight.

 

I'm not familiar with the abbreviation FP, in EQ you had players that could teleport people, a portal in the guild hall and portals in the plane of knowledge. They would get you to another portal but it would still be between a 2 and 3 zone run through KoS mobs to get where you were going unless you had someone already there that could summon you.

 

Maybe something like the EQ guild flag would be a good concept, if you had more than 4 guild members on one spot, including an officer, the officer could plant a guild flag andd all guild members could port directly to the flag from the guild hall. You would of course still need to run to the guild hall but 1 in 5 zone had a port that would get you 1 zone away from it and most people logged there anyway.

[Traumahawk]

At the end of the day the planets are huge, the same thing could be accomplished by setting up smaller zones on each planet with different mob types.

 

Bingo, never started a post about this, because I wanted to think it over...but...

 

Suppose the game was launched with only a handful (2-3) of planets...but each designed similarly to current MMO worlds. In other words, one giant planet but with a multitude of climates and themes. Maybe an entire leveling experience in a Cloud City type world, and then finish it off on another large world. You can't tell me that the entire planet of Alderaan has ONLY snow covered mountains and lush green plains. I would rather they have taken this approach and introduce massive planets each patch. It would have solved travel, world PvP, linearity and many other problems.

[Traumahawk]

I'm not familiar with the abbreviation FP, in EQ you had players that could teleport people, a portal in the guild hall and portals in the plane of knowledge. They would get you to another portal but it would still be between a 2 and 3 zone run through KoS mobs to get where you were going unless you had someone already there that could summon you.

 

Maybe something like the EQ guild flag would be a good concept, if you had more than 4 guild members on one spot, including an officer, the officer could plant a guild flag andd all guild members could port directly to the flag from the guild hall. You would of course still need to run to the guild hall but 1 in 5 zone had a port that would get you 1 zone away from it and most people logged there anyway.

 

I use FP as the generic "flight path" aka Taxi stand. But I totally agree...even a rally system would be better for this. But once again, what are the rewards for engaging in open world PvP? Without some sort of payoff, you aren't going to get the "casual" PvPers who aren't there just to smash face.

[Lazzer]

Bingo, never started a post about this, because I wanted to think it over...but...

 

Suppose the game was launched with only a handful (2-3) of planets...but each designed similarly to current MMO worlds. In other words, one giant planet but with a multitude of climates and themes. Maybe an entire leveling experience in a Cloud City type world, and then finish it off on another large world. You can't tell me that the entire planet of Alderaan has ONLY snow covered mountains and lush green plains. I would rather they have taken this approach and introduce massive planets each patch. It would have solved travel, world PvP, linearity and many other problems.

 

Agreed, they could have even done it more simply with NPC cities and emcampments, on Tatooine a huge PvP arena, a hut palace, Gamorean encampment, Jawa sand crawler/city, human city, huge Sandpeople cities. All different levels, the quest line could then bounce back and forwards between multiple planets forcing people of all levels to constantly revisit each planet. This would ensure that the PvP zones stayed filled and the named mobs were camped in each city for loot.

 

Also make the leveling take over a month for people with tons of play time and 2 to 3 months for casual gamers.

[Uruare]

Don't get me wrong I'm not looking down at anyone, I think the issue is that TOR uses the WoW systems like talent trees ect. This in turn reminds you of WoW but doesn't match up entirely leaving you disappointed.

 

Coming from other games (including almost 8 years of Everquest) I've never played with the talent tress so for me this is a new game, I did play LotRO for about a year and enjoyed the story so much it was one of the main draws for this game and the story hasn't disappointed me yet.

 

 

In my specific case, I'd much prefer it to be entirely different.

 

Being that it is what it is no matter what I'd prefer or not, I'm left bewildered at how they didn't take the lessons Blizzard paved the road on with Blizzard's WoW model and instead seem to, very literally, be intent on making some of the same mistakes and creating some of the same problems WoW had.

 

To me, it's like being sold this new car that doesn't have any of the features of many I've driven for years and seems to have simply rejected, or somehow not known of, all the engineering improvements common to a lot of them.

 

It's been said elsewhere, but this has yet to demonstrate itself as being a game designed this side of about 2007. In car terms, it's like buying a 2012 Honda and finding that it has the exact same features, limitations and usability issues the 1991 Honda you drove in highschool did.

 

I dunno. My biggest issue really is that though. I'm just floored by how out-of-touch with today so much here is.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Uruare

[Traumahawk]

Agreed, they could have even done it more simply with NPC cities and emcampments, on Tatooine a huge PvP arena, a hut palace, Gamorean encampment, Jawa sand crawler/city, human city, huge Sandpeople cities. All different levels, the quest line could then bounce back and forwards between multiple planets forcing people of all levels to constantly revisit each planet. This would ensure that the PvP zones stayed filled and the named mobs were camped in each city for loot.

 

Also make the leveling take over a month for people with tons of play time and 2 to 3 months for casual gamers.

 

We can only hope they start opening up worlds for future content. I know it's too late now, but if expansions come out, they may "Greatly increase XP gains from levels 1-50" so we can start playing on one of our Utopian planets.

[Wythias]

Agreed, they could have even done it more simply with NPC cities and emcampments, on Tatooine a huge PvP arena, a hut palace, Gamorean encampment, Jawa sand crawler/city, human city, huge Sandpeople cities. All different levels, the quest line could then bounce back and forwards between multiple planets forcing people of all levels to constantly revisit each planet. This would ensure that the PvP zones stayed filled and the named mobs were camped in each city for loot.

 

Also make the leveling take over a month for people with tons of play time and 2 to 3 months for casual gamers.

 

I agreed with your post until the last part. For me leveling is like popping a pimple, once you try to pop it, it just feels like it needs to be popped, and 1 month of play time to pop a pimple is a long time. Though now that I think of it back in old school FFXI, most people wouldn't even be half way to cap in that time... Thing is you had to level two classes, unlock classes, unlock dual class, find groups for all this... Wow I was a lot more patient when I was younger...

[Traumahawk]

In my specific case, I'd much prefer it to be entirely different.

 

Being that it is what it is no matter what I'd prefer or not, I'm left bewildered at how they didn't take the lessons Blizzard paved the road on with Blizzard's WoW model and instead seem to, very literally, be intent on making some of the same mistakes and creating some of the same problems WoW had.

 

To me, it's like being sold this new car that doesn't have any of the features of many I've driven for years and seems to have simply rejected, or somehow not known of, all the engineering improvements common to a lot of them.

 

It's been said elsewhere, but this has yet to demonstrate itself as being a game designed this side of about 2007. In car terms, it's like buying a 2012 Honda and finding that it has the exact same features, limitations and usability issues the 1991 Honda you drove in highschool did.

 

I dunno. My biggest issue really is that though. I'm just floored by how out-of-touch with today so much here is.

 

I agree with everything you said. It's not so much the fact that there is an A or B choice, and I don't like A. But rather, Bioware chose "C" -- that one choice that went out of style 4 years ago. Trust me, in games where the developers chose B and I liked A, I bowed out gracefully without so much as even a peep on the forums. I'm not an antagonist, but you hit the nail on the head--it's like they took so many bad elements and merely amplified them or put their own version of "fail" to them. It's not rage but pure disappointment at this point.

 

I speculate that due to the scope of the project, it was much less pliable and changeable once production began. Calling all the VO artists to re-record a scene because you changed a game mechanic would have been a never-ending nightmare--financially and logistically. So...they designed the game for the old early WoW standards...and sadly, the tastes and desires of the gaming community slowly changed. Well SWTOR is like a giant cruise ship--it just can't change heading on a dime. So here it is. Hard to blame the devs so much as the person who thought such a rigid design scheme wouldn't run the risk of obsolescence at launch.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Traumahawk

[Aegyss]

I'll agree with some of you, I think this game needs:

 

- To take a page from wow in terms of quest variety. Give us some some simple vehicle combat. The story adds immersion to the quests, but in the end you're doing the same thing voer and over and over. We need more "minigames".

 

- Retuning of flashpoint difficulty. I'm lvl 38 and all the flashpoints I've went through so far were a breeze, and because there was very little challenge, I didn't want to do them more than once.

 

- More cutscenes in flashpoints (Hammer, Athiss), or more background activity to make the flashpoint feel alive. Think Taral V (Pub FP).

 

- PvP ranking. Would make PvP worth doing more. And you'd eventually stop running into less experienced palyers that way.

 

- OPEN WORLD SPACE MISSIONS.

 

I also think the exp curve is not steep enough, as I find myself skipping through content. That's more of a personal taste thing, I suppose. The advantage with this current exp curve is I can save content for my alts. Adds an element of choice in how I do my quests.

 

tl;dr game needs replay value and variety in its various aspects (pvp, solo pve, FP pve)

[Rotsu]

You by far make the most sense. The only thing is mentally I set a task to hit that day, and then play until my fingers bleed every extra second that I have to hit that mark. I wish I could not do it, but I am not sure how. If it was a single player game I could definitely take it smooth sailing, and have fun with it slow pace leveling. However I don't know why, but when I am playing an MMO I feel so competitive with everyone, and every time I hear someone bragging about how fast they leveled, or how easy something was, I have to go do it full power to prove that I am as good as they are. One of the many reasons why I am starting to fall out of love with MMOs, and Swtor is really "My only hope." had to put that gem in there.

 

Not sure if they would really like me saying this on SWtor's forums but maybe a less treadmill type game would help you sit back a bit while playing. I'm thinking GW2, a game i've been looking forward to a long time. Theres some very interesting grouping mechanics, and with the lack of a sub, its likely to not have as much of a race to the top feel to it. On the plus side since there is no sub, you can also keep SWtor going (hope that makes it ok to say here Bioware )

 

I can understand the competition feeling, its not that i don't feel it myself some times. Guild buddies might be doing something i can't quite do yet, cause i'm still on the journey etc. But i've kinda gotten to this point in part because of past MMOs, i found i turned MMOs into flash pan experiences. So now i try to compete in other ways.

 

one example is i did my best to find alot of the datacron locations, some i did myself. Some i wasn't even close and had to look up, but now i can guide guild buddies and heck, strangers to them, and that also feels like a win, atleast i can think of it that way.

 

Really wish Panzaac for credit gambling was in the game, my competitive spirit could really take off there while i let myself savour the game itself.

 

I wouldn't give up on Mos totally though, at some point theres is always going to be someone at some company who tries something different, and it works, and its freaking fun, even for a minute

[Dead_Ted]

I think around 35ish is when you get access to all of your class/advanced class skills, that's when you'll feel there's no real incentive to gain another level, since you wont get the feeling of testing out that brand new skill for the first time, and it feels like you already know the whole class already so what's the point of keep leveling? Admittedly I felt the same way. Ultimately this is the big turning point to decide whether you've picked the right class for yourself, lots of people make alts after leveling their main to 35ish after they learned all the class skills and have no more motivation to keep going.

 

I personally enjoyed my class and felt it's a right fit for me (Trooper Vanguard), and what I did was set new things to look forward to, namely stuff from the talent tree, which offers a few new tricks and new skills outside the class trainer. By lvl 50 with all the talent points, your character will play quite differently from lvl 35, so if you like your class, it's well worth it to reach max level, then you can look forward to obtaining the lvl 50 pve/pvp set bonus. (another incentive to go on)

Edited February 4, 2012 by Dead_Ted