You know, the PvP gear change could be a good thing...

[DaoJones]

Imagine if they just dropped the Expertise stat completely, and rebalanced the PvP gear to be inline stat-wise with PvE gear. Then you'd have essentially equality between both sets, and you'd have both PvEers and PvPers with an equal progression path to endgame gear. Neither would be "better" than the other, because both would have similar stat loadouts. They would probably favor slightly different stat weightings, but that's just a nuance.

 

If they did that, why would people be unhappy? Battlemaster gear would still be a top end item - comparable to Rakata gear in stat and set bonuses. Champion gear (which will now be harder to get) will be approximate to Columi gear. Same with Centurion and Tionese stuff. The PvPers couldn't complain that their efforts were "wasted", because the gear they've earned will still be equal to the PvE gear, and the PvEers can step into PvP without getting a hole kicked in their heads.

 

Do this, and PvP becomes more (somewhat more, at least) skill-based. If you in PvP gear meet an equally-geared PvE player, you will not have an automatic 10-13% bonus against them. You will need to be better than they are to beat them.

 

I went the PvP route. Valor 51, full Champion gear (except for the #@$%ing weapon!), 11% Expertise. I'd be happy to see Expertise go away, because I would much rather see PvP not be decided by a gear advantage.

 

I doubt this is what they will do, but it's nice to hope. PvP stats are always a bad idea, as they require you to play a very specific path to be competitive in PvP. There exists no such parallel in PvE; in PvE you need to learn your class and rotations to excel. PvP should be likewise: the only "requirement" to excel in PvP should be to get better at PvPing.

[Asnine]

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

[Jestunhi]

Similar but slightly different stats?

 

Lets, see, my character needs pvp implants but a pve earpiece because that has secondary stats more useful to me, a pvp headpiece but a pve chest for the crit instead of power, etc.

 

If pve items are better in any slot during pvp then they become a requirement for any players who want theyr character to reach it's max potential in pvp.

 

So raiding becomes a requirement for the hardcore pvpers.

[Zaodon]

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

 

There is nothing *mechanically* wrong with PvP and PvE gear being equal, stat-wise.

 

The problem is social.

 

Carebears who pretend to be PvPers get "butthurt" if a PvE player, who has never PvPd before, but has PvE'd for (insert long time here) to get top gear, comes into PvP with equal gear power as them, who has PvP'd for (insert long time here) to get their PvP gear.

 

In other words, the carebears who pretend to be PvPers want to be allowed to CRUSH PvE'ers who decide to try out PvP. The reason is that without a gear advantage, the carebears would lose to SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PVP'd BEFORE, because the carebear sucks so badly.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Zaodon

[DaoJones]

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

Yeah, that's my thought as well. In a perfect world you basically say "at level 50, you have two progression paths for endgame gear. You either PvE or PvP. Both will have a similar rate of return for effort, and both will have a comparable level of difficulty."

 

Obviously it's never perfect, but if you look at it as two means to the same end (instead of two exclusive paths) then you allow people to play how they want and still enjoy a reasonable progression arc.

 

I mean, a person who never does a flashpoint or hard mode will still need to learn the mechanics to succeed at PvE, and a person who never steps into a warzone will need to learn how to PvP before they succeed. All you're doing is minimizing the gear dependence/requirement of these two gaming experiences.

 

So raiding becomes a requirement for the hardcore pvpers.

No, because a "hardcore" PvPer can kick your *** regardless of a few stat points' worth of difference. Min/maxing is a PvE game; in PvP the ability to know your opponent, your class, and your skills is FAR more valuable than +2 more End or +3 more Critical rating.

Edited February 2, 2012 by DaoJones

[ReRuined]

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

 

You say never understood it, but then say the very reason why it isn't. It's nearly impossible to balance the 2. And in some cases, you would have to make compromises that would hurt one side or both in order to keep the progression rate the same.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ReRuined

[Fierystrike]

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

 

Holy crap this is sad.

 

First to answer your question because pvers would feel forced to pvp to get gear because pvp gear is time while pve gear is ability of 2+ people to do simple things. And let's face it people say wow is hard and in so many ways they are wrong, there are certain fights that are truly made hard but sooooo many are easy and people still fail.

 

Second, PvP gear is top end pvp gear while pve gear is top end pve gear and top end pvp gear. Until someone proves that the bonus stats on the pve gear is less than expertise bonus im stickin to this since I only pvp.

[Asnine]

Holy crap this is sad.

 

First to answer your question because pvers would feel forced to pvp to get gear because pvp gear is time while pve gear is ability of 2+ people to do simple things. And let's face it people say wow is hard and in so many ways they are wrong, there are certain fights that are truly made hard but sooooo many are easy and people still fail.

 

Second, PvP gear is top end pvp gear while pve gear is top end pve gear and top end pvp gear. Until someone proves that the bonus stats on the pve gear is less than expertise bonus im stickin to this since I only pvp.

 

 

So what is your argument exactly?

 

That PvE is easier than PvP? Probably true. But if I spend most of my time PvP'ing and I lose to PvE'er with the same gear, well, that's pretty sad for me isn't it?

 

You say never understood it, but then say the very reason why it isn't. It's nearly impossible to balance the 2. And in some cases, you would have to make compromises that would hurt one side or both in order to keep the progression rate the same.

 

A fair point. But it shouldn't be so hard to make the times *roughly* equal. Ofc min-maxers will be able to figure out the maximum efficiency way of doing it.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Asnine

[Fierystrike]

There is nothing *mechanically* wrong with PvP and PvE gear being equal, stat-wise.

 

The problem is social.

 

Carebears who pretend to be PvPers get "butthurt" if a PvE player, who has never PvPd before, but has PvE'd for (insert long time here) to get top gear, comes into PvP with equal gear power as them, who has PvP'd for (insert long time here) to get their PvP gear.

 

In other words, the carebears who pretend to be PvPers want to be allowed to CRUSH PvE'ers who decide to try out PvP. The reason is that without a gear advantage, the carebears would lose to SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PVP'd BEFORE, because the carebear sucks so badly.

 

Your so funny and wrOng it hurts.

 

Pvp has a pvp stat because PVE carebares don't want to have to pvp for pve, the reason pvp gear exist is so pve carebears don't wreck pvPers with their pve gear and I'm talking when there is no pvp gear and only pve gear. This means that pvp era might have T1 gear but against T3+ once they add more pve gear, the pvpers dot stand a chance.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fierystrike

[CyRenMBHMCM]

Pve ers would complain its too easy for pvp players to get gear equivalent to theirs for pve without raiding cos obviously pvp is much easier than raiding and thats not fair.

 

Pvp ers would complain its too easy for pve players to get gear equivalent to theirs for pvp without pvping cos obviously pve is much easier than pvp and thats not fair.

 

Do you see where im going with this?

 

Personally im a die hard pvper that hates carebearing but in tor a mix of pve and bm gear is actually far superior to full bm so i'll be doing both to ensure im maxed for my chosen end game.

 

Regards the masses that would cry and rage about your idea, grass is always greener.

[Garton]

Its oke to have something like pvp stat but new players should have a gear set thats obtainable for them in a decent time frame.

 

Now the new patch notes have been announced and so basically the centerion set is going to be your first stop. I don't know how much tokens you are going to get from one bag but its a step in the right direction. People now yelling "i had to put so much time in it." So what alot of people that spend so much time have been complaining about the whole pvp gear system for awhile now. I got my BM i got my gear but god i can understand that not everybody wants to spend hours in trying to get there.

 

However this new system is still fubar if you ask me. So starting the 1.1.2 patch we will be getting "champion" bags to get our centurion commendations.... Oke this is great since the randomness will be less but why not take that entire randomness away. Because champion gear is all going to be about obtaining randomly.

 

Make centerion bags that only give tokens, then make champion bags which you can only open at say valor rank 45 and then battlemaster bags at 60 but all just tokes. As it stands now people will only be able to save for champion tokens when they are valor rank 60.... The hell getting to valor rank 60 is no easy feat for someone that does have that much time to spent. While people that do make it to 60 are going to feel cheated since they finally got to battlemaster but getting the gear for it is still as random as ever maybe even worse.

[Jestunhi]

No, because a "hardcore" PvPer can kick your *** regardless of a few stat points' worth of difference. Min/maxing is a PvE game; in PvP the ability to know your opponent, your class, and your skills is FAR more valuable than +2 more End or +3 more Critical rating.

 

Hardcore pvper != good pvper.

 

Hardcore pvper = a pvper who is interested pretty much solely in pvp. They don't pve unless it's a requirement and play the game because they want to pvp, etc.

 

It is unrelated to how good they are.

[Fierystrike]

Its oke to have something like pvp stat but new players should have a gear set thats obtainable for them in a decent time frame.

 

Now the new patch notes have been announced and so basically the centerion set is going to be your first stop. I don't know how much tokens you are going to get from one bag but its a step in the right direction. People now yelling "i had to put so much time in it." So what alot of people that spend so much time have been complaining about the whole pvp gear system for awhile now. I got my BM i got my gear but god i can understand that not everybody wants to spend hours in trying to get there.

 

However this new system is still fubar if you ask me. So starting the 1.1.2 patch we will be getting "champion" bags to get our centurion commendations.... Oke this is great since the randomness will be less but why not take that entire randomness away. Because champion gear is all going to be about obtaining randomly.

 

Make centerion bags that only give tokens, then make champion bags which you can only open at say valor rank 45 and then battlemaster bags at 60 but all just tokes. As it stands now people will only be able to save for champion tokens when they are valor rank 60.... The hell getting to valor rank 60 is no easy feat for someone that does have that much time to spent. While people that do make it to 60 are going to feel cheated since they finally got to battlemaster but getting the gear for it is still as random as ever maybe even worse.

 

 

It has nothi to do with expertise, this is an unskilled players response blame the "pvp" stat for losing, this is simply a gear issue. They have better gear and you cant out play them and you lose. If they where in full pve gear the issue would still be there.

[EasymodeX]

If they did that, why would people be unhappy?

 

Healers would be unhappy because they'd heal less and die faster.

 

Which is fine by me, but shrug.

 

Also, hardcore PvE players would QQQQQ that it's so easy to get gear from PvP to do PvE.

 

Similarly, PvP players don't want to do retarded PvE to get <insert gear item> that is BIS or otherwise more useful for PvP.

 

I never understood why just having similar / roughly equal stats on PvE and PvP gear would be so imbalanced, as long as the rate of progression/acquisition was roughly the same

 

It is nearly impossible to make the rate of progression/acquisition 'roughly the same'. This is the problem.

 

 

 

The better solution for this problem is to avoid the concept of "PVP stat" and instead implement a "PVE stat". Warhammer had a good gear model for this through its "ward" system: all tiered gear (both PvE and PvP) granted "wards" of <insert tier level>. The wards granted +20% damage output to and -10% damage taken from PvE tiered mobs.

 

 

However, this is a PvP-centric design. SWTOR is a PvE-centric game.

 

Suck it up.

[SWImara]

There is nothing *mechanically* wrong with PvP and PvE gear being equal, stat-wise.

 

The problem is social.

 

Carebears who pretend to be PvPers get "butthurt" if a PvE player, who has never PvPd before, but has PvE'd for (insert long time here) to get top gear, comes into PvP with equal gear power as them, who has PvP'd for (insert long time here) to get their PvP gear.

 

In other words, the carebears who pretend to be PvPers want to be allowed to CRUSH PvE'ers who decide to try out PvP. The reason is that without a gear advantage, the carebears would lose to SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER PVP'd BEFORE, because the carebear sucks so badly.

 

Historically the opposite of this has been shown to be true just as often. PvEers (read Raiders) have *****ed and moaned any time PvP gear was made actually comparable (rather than a step or more below) PvE gear. This has already been the case here in SWTOR with people complaining about the "ease" of obtaining PvP gear compared to low end game PvE gear.

 

Personally I would rather see all stats be made meaningless in PvP than have to PvE in order to be competitive. I have some faith that BW will handle this change well and keep in mind increased output of PvE gear when "rebalancing" PvP gear, but I've seen this go the wrong way too many times in the past.

[Krionic]

Imagine if they just dropped the Expertise stat completely, and rebalanced the PvP gear to be inline stat-wise with PvE gear. Then you'd have essentially equality between both sets, and you'd have both PvEers and PvPers with an equal progression path to endgame gear.

 

Does pve raiding gear have raiding valor requirement?

 

Sorry I don't want to have to compete against guys that pve against dumb mobs because they watched a video on the internet that showed them how to easily beat (ie exploit) an easy mob to get an easy (guaranteed drop) to gear up their lame raiding guild so they could move on to the next easy raid they watched a video about.

 

If they want to earn their dues in pvp by earning valor and gearing up for this sport. then so be it.

 

Also, if you are going to just make bm/champ gear the same as rakata stat wise, then whats the sense in even having 2 sets of armor. 1 is good for pve and one is good for pvp. leave it that way. If i want to PVE then i should have to progress in pve doing FP, then HM FP and Raids etc...

[Qeuzolt]

This would be a really great idea if they were completely equal in stats. I think people would still find the "fastest" way to do it, probably PVE since so much gear drops per Operation and there are tons of lockouts, but that doesn't matter if they fix the RNG system a bit. I would be very happy with this change.

 

The only thing that would worry me about that if I were a developer would be that would basically cut the content in half for a pretty large group of players. Many players play to get the gear, once they have the gear they want more content. So if there are 2 ways to get the same gear its effectively doing twice the work for half the content.

 

For example: Player A raids 3 nights a week and gets one new piece, He also PVP's every other night and gets one new piece (i know), So 2 pc per week lets say he gets 14 dupes, it would take 14 weeks to get fully geared in epics. So every 20 weeks max we would need new content to be pushed out or everyone had "beaten" the game.

 

They could take WoW's gear progression up and make each tier of content is a huge jump making you need all/most of the previous tier to be viable in the next tier, but then how do you manage that in PVP unless you do some sort of gear ranking system, or rated system that keeps people in certain tiers of gear together. Which would most likely lengthen Q times or require xserver implementation. This system would effectively lengthen the "end game" from 14 weeks (using previous numbers) to 42 weeks, but also brings a whole new set of problems to contend with.

 

They could also just have each new tier pc require a currency as well as the older tier pc to be traded in. For example trade a Centurion Helm + 100 Mercenary commendations to trade it in for a Champions Helm. So and so forth, if you do this for both PVE and PVP then it would slow down gear progression.

 

Who knows what they do, but I hope they don't just nerf expertise and take the easy way out, let them bring back the lvl 50 blue PVP items, then new 50's that want to PVP can be somewhat more viable. A large change to the gear progression is not what I expect to happen/