MrContact Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I posted this at my blog a few days ago. As long as BW fails to understand how a high burst stealth class works in this game they will fail to balance such class. I am playing scoundrel myself, but I am worried that my class will either be totally OP or nerfed to oblivion. The nerf to Scoundrels (Operatives) caused a lot of discussions at the official forums. Not only was it a heavy blow against an already underplayed class, but it was the first real PVP nerf since launch. The truth is people really have it hard dealing with frontloaded burst classes in PVP situations when they are the target. It is not fun getting knocked out relative fast while feeling completely out of control. What people fails to notice is the fact that these bursts classes often gets killed just as fast if things goes wrong for them. So we get to a situation where the outcome of the fight is decided before it begins. And each time a scoundrel/operative/rogue/thief/whatever successfully executes one of these stealth attack, there’s a high chance of spawning another forum warrior. Which results in a nerf and often the burst class gets left behind the rest. The game designers have to make an important choice. Either accept that such class doesn’t belong to the game or step up and tell the community that that’s the terms for that class. If they choose the former option they have to give their stealthy class some other tools so they are still viable without the burst and if they choose the latter it requires some delicate balancing and create a pvp environment that allows such a strong 1v1 class. The problem is, however, that most game designers get stuck between those 2 options and it’s easy to see the results. The 2nd option is rarely the solution for an MMO game. It’s only in EVE online where I have seen it viable. However in SWTOR, and WOW and RIFT for that matter, we have to face it that a stealthclass with frontloaded burst doesn’t belong to these games, which means that the Scoundrel/Operative class and especially the Scrapper(Concealment) tree have to find a new role. This doesn’t mean that our class shouldn’t be able to pop out of stealth and take out a vulnerable target. It just means that we should do it in a slightly longer fight rather than a few seconds of burst. The first step is to make the class less reliant on the opener. It is not our role anymore so it shouldn’t be such a powerful toolI made a post at the official forum about a week ago. (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224672) suggesting that our opener should be split into different abilities so we had one for burst dmg, one for CC and one for sustained DPS. Pretty much like the wow approach, and for that reason I’m starting to dislike my own suggestion. Remember that the rogues in wow are still very dependent on getting the opener. Instead we should keep Shoot First(Hidden Strike) as the only opener, but give the class a passive ability that makes any attacks from stealth proc UH( TA) and give it a 2nd effect as well. It could be a reduced cost, increased effect or something like that. This changes 2 things. First of all there are suddenly several options and which for example allows Dirty Fighting (Lethality) specs use one of their dots as opener and still get the UH(TA) proc to get their dps going. It also makes stealth more useful in FP where you otherwise have to waste time sneaking behind the mobs while the rest of the melee classes just rush in. And second it does also allow low lvl scoundrels (operatives) to get their rotations going since they don’t have Shoot First (Hidden Strike) for the initial extra UH (TA) proc. Shoot First (Hidden Strike) will still be a good burst ability and it should still be the preferred way to start the fight as Scrapper (Concealment) The 20% nerf seems fair since it shouldn’t be the sole thing deciding the outcome of the fight, but still give the Scoundrel (Operative) an edge when allowed to get the opener. So now we have stripped the trademark from the class and it’s time to recreate one. That means we should get a small boost to sustained dps (atleast for Scrapper(Concealment)) and extra utility, both offensive and defensive. There are several ways to buff the sustained dps so that’s not what I am going to cover. However for the utility our cooldowns should be powerful and we should be granted some neat tricks to gain control in the fight. We aren’t gonna win in a pure dps race. To gain this extra utility many of our abilities should get an overhaul. Got a few suggestions and might add some more later. Flying Fists (Collateral Strike) This isn’t one of my own suggestions though I can’t remember the user’s name. However I find his suggestion very good. Lacerate: The Collateral Strike triggered ability stuns weak/standard enemies, but doesn't stun strong enemies (or players). Have it do a 0-second stun (i.e., an interrupt) against any enemy too strong to be stunned for the normal duration, even if the CS damage needs to be reduced slightly to compensate. Since you'll only have these on 50% of your Lacerates, and you won't be delaying Lacerates just to interrupt the right things, it won't be the sort of thing you can depend on to shut down a caster, but it'll make our intended victims a bit more vulnerable to our opening burst. So it basically makes Scrapper (Concealment) a pain in the *** for casters and healers. Instead of killing them within a few seconds we just make life harder for them. Dodge (Evasion) Currently this ability is very weak in a pvp environment. Most abilities simply ignore it making it useless and the short duration isn’t making it any better. The first step is to increase the duration. 5 seconds seems to be more reasonable. It should also protect against more abilities rather than the basic attack + a handful of often weak abilities. The improved version, which Scoundrels (Operatives) get should also grant immunity for slows and snares giving us something to compensate for the lack of gabclosers. Knockbacks are a huge counter to Scoundrels (Operatives) so the CD on dodge (Evasion) should probably also be reset each time we are knocked back. It makes other classes think twice before they knock us back. [New Ability] Nullifier The name is just a suggestion. The concept is simple. Casting this ability gives the caster a short buff, 3-4 seconds, which absorbs the next force or tech ability (maybe limit it to direct ability). So basically it covers a hole in our defense. It should have a relative short CD and a low cost. Is the big bad Sith sorcerer about to cast a deadly lightning ability? No worries just pop Nullifier and laugh at his face. A nice little ability that buys us some time and improves our defense Dispel protection for DF (Lethality) One of the biggest issues this spec struggles with is how easily a competent healer can counter their dots. Some sort of protection against dispel could be useful or even better have some consequences if they get dispelled. My suggestion is to make Vital Shot (Corrosive Dart) instantly tick for 70% of the remaining damage if it’s dispelled. The number should probably be adjusted. This should only be achieved by DF (Lethality) specs so a relative high placement in the tree is needed. Well that’s a few suggestions I got. Any other suggestions are welcome but the developers should be creative as well. What this means for PVE players We have to remember one thing. This game has a big PVE part as well and we can’t ignore that when making changes. However these changes will make the class, especially the Scrapper (Concealment) specs, more viable in PVE. It will be a helping hand to our former burst class which rarely got a role in raiding. None of these changes will make the class OP in PVE either. What this means for healer Scoundrels (Operatives) These changes will give the class a higher survivability which is needed in pvp. Especially low lvl Sawbones (Medicine) find themselves as vulnerable as wet paper bags. Final thoughts By sacrificing some of the high burst we will gain extra dps and utility for the longer fights making us less reliant on the burst. It will make the game more enjoyable for everyone and it will prevent us from being viewed as the OP noskill class. It’s hard to argument against the videos with people getting killed in few seconds by a scoundrel (operative) and they would rarely accept it if they were told that that’s how the terms are. Let’s face it: The one trick pony doesn’t belong to this game. TL;DR One trick Ponies doesn't belong to the game. Ppl cry when they get killed in a few seconds, but its hard to balance without either making it OP or useless. The class should move in a new direction with less burst but slightly more sustained DPS and extra utility and control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrContact Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 So I did a bunch of warzones today on my Operative alt and it is pretty obvius: Scoundrels / Operatives brings NOTHING to a huttball game All other classes got charges, pulls, knockbacks and sprints. And what do we have? Our healer spec is often outperformed by sages/sorcs, our burst spec got nerfed and our dot spec is pretty weak. We need more tools! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCorvuss Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 roguecraft 2.0 fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sshate Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) The problem is that when it comes to balance and they don't know how to 'fix' something, only 'nerf.' That is the general trend. For example, smuggle/infiltrate gets nerfed instead of fixed (fixed would be address player QQ but without removing the only team utility skill for the class). How about the trade kills? all they do is nerf nerf nerf, and they do not fix any real issue (other trade skills worthless and need to be fixed. instead their idea of balance is to nerf biochem until it is also worthless so craft skills are all equally bad). Edited February 5, 2012 by Sshate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Stop talking about the ops as if they are the problem. They aren't. It's the inquisitors, and their stealth class the assassin. That's where the trouble lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 So I did a bunch of warzones today on my Operative alt and it is pretty obvius: Scoundrels / Operatives brings NOTHING to a huttball game All other classes got charges, pulls, knockbacks and sprints. And what do we have? Our healer spec is often outperformed by sages/sorcs, our burst spec got nerfed and our dot spec is pretty weak. We need more tools! Uh... you get to blow healers up like bags full of fireworks. Sawbones and Sorcs go up -particularly- well, although I've been chopped up by a couple of you guys before I could even get a second Tracer Missile off at the ball carrier. Being nigh-immobile makes it super hard to escape you stealthy types. Sorcs are definitely in that category. You bring something, and that something is 'destroying pockethealers'. You're one of the only classes that can do it in a short enough time to be reasonably effective, too, not to mention being able to lock out spammable heals while you're knocking folks down and stabbing the **** out of them for oodles of damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sshate Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Stop talking about the ops as if they are the problem. They aren't. It's the inquisitors, and their stealth class the assassin. That's where the trouble lies. You're exactly the problem. All you idiots complain about is this class is OP, nerf it. That class is OP, nerf it. It's bad enough that the designers are clueless, the terrible player feed back made it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sshate Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Uh... you get to blow healers up like bags full of fireworks. You're a bad healer than. They open on me and i just laugh and kite them. They have absolutely nothing to chase me with and I kite them all day. Commando and good sentinel/marauder are bigger threat. (note 'good' sentinel who knows how to play). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltaminus Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 So I did a bunch of warzones today on my Operative alt and it is pretty obvius: Scoundrels / Operatives brings NOTHING to a huttball game All other classes got charges, pulls, knockbacks and sprints. And what do we have? Our healer spec is often outperformed by sages/sorcs, our burst spec got nerfed and our dot spec is pretty weak. We need more tools! Negative. People like you are hurting my class. People like you make it more difficult for people like me to find groups. The only benefit threads like these have to me, is people ignore me up until I rip them a new one in WZ. And then I get to laugh and gloat because I came in first, even though I'm playing a nerfed class. I will agree knockbacks need some sort of counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 You're a bad healer than. They open on me and i just laugh and kite them. They have absolutely nothing to chase me with and I kite them all day. Commando and good sentinel/marauder are bigger threat. (note 'good' sentinel who knows how to play). Did I say I was a healer? I'm a Merc. And not the kind that shoots Kolto at people, I'm the one everyone's trying to get nerfed because I'm forced to use an ability for half my ****in' rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalDreamz Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Am I the only one who thinks giving a class a skill which turns them invisible was completely underwear-over-pants retarded? Who came up with the bright idea to let a class walk around completely invisible? Then you get hit by one and you're face down *** up on the ground for a couple of seconds. Kicker is when things don't go their way they just poof disappear into the air! Like magicians! Edited February 5, 2012 by DigitalDreamz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adaerion Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Kicker is when things don't go their way they just poof disappear into the air! Like magicians! Yea but that ability has a bit of CD. There definitely needs to be some sort of change. Either accept that burst dps is the way the class is designed or give Op/Scoundrel more sustained dps. Perhaps it's simply because I'm new to the class (lvl 22) but I feel like since the nerf I'm trying to stab people with a butter knife. I got bent over the table by a lvl 11 Sorcerer the other night, and I'm pretty sure I'm not that bad of a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Did I say I was a healer? I'm a Merc. And not the kind that shoots Kolto at people, I'm the one everyone's trying to get nerfed because I'm forced to use an ability for half my ****in' rotation. Then stop talking about stuff you don't know anything about. I'm an operative healer, and operatives are pretty low on my list of worries. Way below inquisitors and mercenaries, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyshadow Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) well personally the reduction time for the knockdown skill was needed but imho i think that the other two should have been a 10/20% reduction (no im not and op/scoundrel ima vangaurd) but if you work with the new stuff and do what the ops/scoundrels and stunlock/ pick and chose targets....well **** harsh life aint it Edited February 5, 2012 by jonnyshadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anticept Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I agree with most of your points. But seeing from wz stats is it really that broken class ? Or are people just trying to play it as a twink lvl 19 rogue . I'm a Merc. And not the kind that shoots Kolto at people, I'm the one everyone's trying to get nerfed because I'm forced to use an ability for half my ****in' rotation. Well go pyrotech then or is it too difficult to use more than 2 buttons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 You're exactly the problem. All you idiots complain about is this class is OP, nerf it. That class is OP, nerf it. It's bad enough that the designers are clueless, the terrible player feed back made it worse. I didn't hear anything invalidating the truth of what I said, just a childish insult. It's almost like you couldn't think of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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