shoreu Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 why do they feel we need a nerf jk/warr are the only to classes deserving a buff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotien Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 agian at my post the dmg increase on crit multipler goes down the more surge you have i know i didnt post any math but someone previous of me has and when we reach that crit its like 80% crit multipler i used 70 in my post and it was increase but at like 80% base from stats the crit dmg and the base dmg is both lower and their is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that its a dps loss... THE OLNY way i can see this as a dps increase is to a VERY VERY fresh 50 sentinal with like 55% crit multiplier and somehow has good crit chance even then its questionable but its a fact its a dps loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMithran Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 It's clear from them 2 posts he cant do math for crap, next time you should probably have a thought of your own before posting. I hope you're trolling. There was nothing wrong with his math, there was just a typo in one of the equations. If you fix the typo (1.04 to 0.04) you'll get the same answer he posted. What you posted indicated that you believe there's a marauder/sentinel talent that increases damage by 104%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMithran Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 agian at my post the dmg increase on crit multipler goes down the more surge you have i know i didnt post any math but someone previous of me has and when we reach that crit its like 80% crit multipler i used 70 in my post and it was increase but at like 80% base from stats the crit dmg and the base dmg is both lower and their is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that its a dps loss... THE OLNY way i can see this as a dps increase is to a VERY VERY fresh 50 sentinal with like 55% crit multiplier and somehow has good crit chance even then its questionable but its a fact its a dps loss someone had mentioned that in WoW there was a rogue talent that increased crit damage multiplicatively. Assuming 1.7 crit multiplier: Old crit: 400 x 1.34 x 1.7 = 911.2 New crit (if additive) 400 X 1.15 x 2 = 920 New crit (if multiplicative) 400 X 1.15 x 1.7 x 1.3 = 1,016.6 Non crits: old: 400 x 1.34 = 536 new: 400 x 1.15 = 460 Assuming 50% crit rate (with juyo stacks) for 1000 hits: Old: (500 x 912.2) + (500 x 536) = 456,100 + 268,000 = 724,100 New (if crit multiplier is additive) (500 x 920) + (500 x 460) = 460,000 + 230,000 = 690,000 New (if crit multiplier is multiplicative) (500 x 1,016.6) + (500 x 460) = 508,300 + 230,000 = 738,300 So basically, it's a slight buff if Bleedout affects the crit multiplier multiplicatively and a slight nerf if it affects the multiplier additively. This is ignoring berzerk. Since you can berzerk several times per minute as Annihilation it might be appropriate to to use an even higher average crit rate (maybe 60-70%). The two factors that make me think it will affect the multiplier multiplicatively is that the dev said the change would be a slight buff and it has been done in previous games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaRockStar Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Yeah they need to look over sentinel one more time before this goes live. Their proposed changes are definitely not going to increase our overall damage. Having +30% damage to ALL DoTs is better than having +30% damage ONLY to DoT crits. Isn't it obvious? As for changing the 6% damage increase (apparently only 4% anyways) up to 15% is going to increase damage when putting 3 points into that skill... But really I don't think we want that. So basically they nerf one thing and buff another thing but only slightly. In this case the bad outweighs the good. I prose they should change the description in the skills to say that it increases all DoT damage by 30%, AND give us the 15% increase in plasma blades/hemmorage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMithran Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) So basically they nerf one thing and buff another thing but only slightly. In this case the bad outweighs the good. If the +30% to crit dmg affects the multiplier additively, it's about a 4.7% nerf to overall bleed dmg assuming 50% crit rate. If the +30% to crit dmg affects the multiplier multiplicatively, it's about a 2% buff to overall bleed dmg assuming 50% crit rate. The first scenario directly contradicts what the dev stated whereas the second supports his statement. I'm inclined to believe the latter until more information is provided. Edited February 4, 2012 by DarthMithran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaRockStar Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Any damage buff this update brings is coming from the changes made to Plasma Blades/Hemmorage (15%). What they are doing to Bleedout/Searing Saber (30% crit damage) is a flat out nerf as stated in the OP. The only reason they can say this update is a slight increase to DPS is because of the changes to Plasma Blades. I dont agree with these adjustments. This class needs all the help it can get. It's not our fault Bioware messed up and gave us +30% DoT damage to begin with. Another very important factor to remember is the skill points. As it stands now, you can bypass the 3 points in Plasma Blades/Hemmorage and not be missing out on much because +30% damage from Bleedout/Searing Saber is better than 6% damage from Plasma Blades/Hemmorage. Many players do not feel the 3 point investment has been worth it at this point and have spent their skill points accordingly. Now with these changes we need to spend those 3 points in Plasma Blades/Hemmorage as well as keeping our points in Bleedout/Searing Saber in order to take advantage of the "overall DPS increase". Maybe to some people this seems like the best decision but I don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkonnis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 your just figuring out the crit/surge thing now. I have been telling my friends this for weeks now. The Marauder is a crit fiend it's what we want to do. A lot of builds devalue crit and surge because we have guaranteed crits with certain abilities that then have their crit damage increased later in the build. Personally I am pumping as much crit on my Marauder as I can. I play carnage so I wasn't as sure but it looks like they are moving anni towards a crit build as well. Carnage does better with power and surge. Force scream (your primary damager) is 100% crit, so why on earth would you want to stack crit chance over power. the whole build is designed around getting empowered screams to proc as often as possible. I do agree, i like a healthy amount of crit but annihilation HAS ALWAYS been crit/surge based. Always. look at the talents and the skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMithran Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Any damage buff this update brings is coming from the changes made to Plasma Blades/Hemmorage (15%). This is not true as the 15% is compounded by the +30% increased critical dmg. Assuming 70% crit multiplier Old crit: Base x 1.34 x 1.7 = Base x 2.278 New crit (if additive): Base x 1.15 x (1.7 + 0.3) = Base x 2.3 New crit (if multiplicative): Base x 1.15 x 1.7 x 1.3 = Base x 2.5415 Non crit: Old: Base x 1.34 New: Base x 1.15 I showed the rest of the calculations in an above post using Base dmg = 400 as an example and a 50% crit rate on bleeds. What they are doing to Bleedout/Searing Saber (30% crit damage) is a flat out nerf as stated in the OP. The OP used a 25% crit rate which is not really realistic since you get +15% increased critical chance from Juyo Mastery alone and also ignores Berzerk. If you are wearing decent gear at level 50 you should have at least 40-50% critical chance on bleeds. By using such a low crit rate in his calculations, it makes it look like a nerf whether the 30% is additive or multiplicative. Edited February 4, 2012 by DarthMithran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaRockStar Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 This is not true as the 15% is compounded by the +30% increased critical dmg. Assuming 70% crit multiplier Old crit: Base x 1.34 x 1.7 = Base x 2.278 New crit (if additive): Base x 1.15 x (1.7 + 0.3) = Base x 2.3 New crit (if multiplicative): Base x 1.15 x 1.7 x 1.3 = Base x 2.5415 Non crit: Old: Base x 1.34 New: Base x 1.15 I showed the rest of the calculations in an above post using Base dmg = 400 as an example and a 50% crit rate on bleeds. The OP used a 25% crit rate which is not really realistic since you get +15% increased critical chance from Juyo Mastery alone and also ignores Berzerk. If you are wearing decent gear at level 50 you should have at least 40-50% critical chance on bleeds. By using such a low crit rate in his calculations, it makes it look like a nerf whether the 30% is additive or multiplicative. I don't want to have to put 3 points into plasma blades/hemmorage... After the update this skill setup will not as effective because I don't have 3 points in blades/hemmorage. Its too bad because I liked that setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I hope you're trolling. There was nothing wrong with his math, there was just a typo in one of the equations. If you fix the typo (1.04 to 0.04) you'll get the same answer he posted. What you posted indicated that you believe there's a marauder/sentinel talent that increases damage by 104%. yeh he's a troll. "nuts, I screwed up... Must not admit mistake!" On the other hand, I did some napkin math and my average dot hit didnt really change, did not count zen uptime. This is at 25% crit and 70% surge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMithran Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 yeh he's a troll. "nuts, I screwed up... Must not admit mistake!" On the other hand, I did some napkin math and my average dot hit didnt really change, did not count zen uptime. This is at 25% crit and 70% surge. You need to remember to include Juyo Mastery which is 15% more crit chance. So you'd have 40% crit on your bleeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerhowse Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) You need to remember to include Juyo Mastery which is 15% more crit chance. So you'd have 40% crit on your bleeds I ran the numbers in excel and you need exactly 42.1286031042129%>crit chance to achieve a higher dps. This is easily done with juyo form stacks and centering buffs. On my lvl 40 sentinel I have 26% crit without juyo stacks, relics, stims, etc. Question, would the insight/Malice also increase the crit chance of bleeds? If that is the case than it is more than possible to easily get past the 42.12 crit chance mark. As we don't actually use force for our abilities, I was thinking that it was just a straight across the board crit chance increase. Edited February 5, 2012 by Powerhowse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Bleeds are considered force attacks. Malice effects Rupture and Deadly Saber. I'm not sure what numbers you "ran in excel" but this is definitely a big hit to our damage unless they're using a multiplicative crit damage modifier for bleedout. Edited February 5, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) In Rakata gear a properly geared Annihilation Spec Marauder will be getting between 29-30% total crit(~13% from crit and ~12% from strength) and around 250 surge rating(Which is ~30% bonus crit damage at which point the DR starts to get insane). I'll redo his math with a 56% crit chance and 80% bonus crit damage. This assumes 30% crit from strength/crit, 6% from malice, and 15% from juyo. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current System: 131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot 131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.8 = 319 critical dot 177 * 440 = 77,880 319 * 560 = 178,640 Grand total = 256,520 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New System(Additive Crit Multiplier): 131 * 1.15 = 151 normal dot 131 * 1.15 * 2.1 = 316 critical dot 151 * 440 = 66,440 316 * 560 = 176,960 Grand total = 243,400 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New System(Multiplicative Crit Multiplier): 131 * 1.15 = 151 normal dot 131 * 1.15 * 1.8 * 1.3 = 353 critical dot 151 * 440 = 66,440 353 * 560 = 197,680 Grand Total = 264,120 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bottom line is they better be using a multiplicative crit multiplier or we're screwed. Edited February 5, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 You need to remember to include Juyo Mastery which is 15% more crit chance. So you'd have 40% crit on your bleeds remembered, the numbers are from my character sheet. I have 29 / 85 now, I shoulf recalxulate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delkerramak Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hey, at least your class got acknowledged. Still waiting on those Jugg DPS buffs. Good luck ... their burst is ridiculous in pvp as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulach Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 In Rakata gear a properly geared Annihilation Spec Marauder will be getting between 29-30% total crit(~13% from crit and ~12% from strength) and around 250 surge rating(Which is ~30% bonus crit damage at which point the DR starts to get insane). I'll redo his math with a 56% crit chance and 80% bonus crit damage. This assumes 30% crit from strength/crit, 6% from malice, and 15% from juyo. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current System: 131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot 131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.8 = 319 critical dot 177 * 440 = 77,880 319 * 560 = 178,640 Grand total = 256,520 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New System(Additive Crit Multiplier): 131 * 1.15 = 151 normal dot 131 * 1.15 * 2.1 = 316 critical dot 151 * 440 = 66,440 316 * 560 = 176,960 Grand total = 243,400 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New System(Multiplicative Crit Multiplier): 131 * 1.15 = 151 normal dot 131 * 1.15 * 1.8 * 1.3 = 353 critical dot 151 * 440 = 66,440 353 * 560 = 197,680 Grand Total = 264,120 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bottom line is they better be using a multiplicative crit multiplier or we're screwed. Cleanse=0 Damage Almost every Heal can drop bleed effects of this class, the top tier ability is near impossible to land consistently with the 2 GCD window of annihilate on the second stack in either PVP or PVE content with the stupid amount of ability delay there is. Oh and as this spec you have to be within 4m to do anything and have only one closing ability. If you have an equally geared hybrid spec sorcerer just stand still while you beat on him, they can easily kill you while you beat on them and chain interupt them. Annihilation spec will never be viable unless you add snare effects to all of the dots via skill or tree, Shorten the CD of all of the abilities and shorten the time the DoT ticks for while adding damage to each tick, so only a small amount of dot damage can be removed with a heal or cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Cleanse=0 Damage Almost every Heal can drop bleed effects of this class, the top tier ability is near impossible to land consistently with the 2 GCD window of annihilate on the second stack in either PVP or PVE content with the stupid amount of ability delay there is. Oh and as this spec you have to be within 4m to do anything and have only one closing ability. If you have an equally geared hybrid spec sorcerer just stand still while you beat on him, they can easily kill you while you beat on them and chain interupt them. Annihilation spec will never be viable unless you add snare effects to all of the dots via skill or tree, Shorten the CD of all of the abilities and shorten the time the DoT ticks for while adding damage to each tick, so only a small amount of dot damage can be removed with a heal or cleanse. What the heck? We aren't talking about PvP cleanses in this thread. That's an entirely different issue that's completely off-topic. We're talking about the bleed talent change in the upcoming patch and how it will effect our DPS(Primarily in PvE). Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eszi Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 The thing is, you have a 25% crit CHANCE, not 25% of your hits are crits. In theory, you can get 9000/10000 crits as well as 20/10000 with 25% chance Treating 25% crit chance as "every 4th hit = crit" is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarcodeX Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Cleanse=0 Damage Almost every Heal can drop bleed effects of this class, the top tier ability is near impossible to land consistently with the 2 GCD window of annihilate on the second stack in either PVP or PVE content with the stupid amount of ability delay there is. Oh and as this spec you have to be within 4m to do anything and have only one closing ability. If you have an equally geared hybrid spec sorcerer just stand still while you beat on him, they can easily kill you while you beat on them and chain interupt them. Annihilation spec will never be viable unless you add snare effects to all of the dots via skill or tree, Shorten the CD of all of the abilities and shorten the time the DoT ticks for while adding damage to each tick, so only a small amount of dot damage can be removed with a heal or cleanse. Yet there are very few healers that are this good on my server or even a hybrid spec sorc. Annihilation spec Marauders will still rock healers (with the exception of good Merc/Commandos). Sorcs are the easiest to kill of all 3 healer classes IMO. We already have decent snares. Force Charge, Force Choke, Rupture (if you pick up the reduced speed), and Crippling Slash. We do NOT need the opponent to stand still in order get our bleeds off. As long as they're slowed, no problem here. Don't get me wrong, I would kill to have another snare, stun, or CC, but that really isn't an issue that makes us NOT viable. Though, I would agree to have the bleeds tick faster. I really do not see a problem with CD for any skills. Annihilate skill already adds a charge to reduce it's next Annihilate. Both Annihilate and Vicious Slash have a high chance of resetting the CD of Rupture and Deadly Saber's CD is already short as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashnazg Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) The thing is, you have a 25% crit CHANCE, not 25% of your hits are crits. In theory, you can get 9000/10000 crits as well as 20/10000 with 25% chance Treating 25% crit chance as "every 4th hit = crit" is a mistake. No, its not a mistake. In a long enough run it will be 25%. A single PvE raid is long enough for crit rate to average out to what your char sheet says. Edited February 5, 2012 by Ashnazg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptical Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Have any of you guys bothered to test how the changes play or are you all stamping your feet and making loud noises? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarcodeX Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Have any of you guys bothered to test how the changes play or are you all stamping your feet and making loud noises? Probably stamping feet and making loud noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) The thing is, you have a 25% crit CHANCE, not 25% of your hits are crits. In theory, you can get 9000/10000 crits as well as 20/10000 with 25% chance Treating 25% crit chance as "every 4th hit = crit" is a mistake. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I lose faith in the education system every day. Search google for "Probability", "Law of Large Numbers", and "Chance". Have any of you guys bothered to test how the changes play or are you all stamping your feet and making loud noises? Please enlighten us. What should we be "testing to see how they play"? The only change is how much damage our regular and crit bleed ticks will do. The class isn't going to play any differently. It will just be lower damage. Period. Edited February 6, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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