1.1.2 Marauder/Sentinel changes are dps LOSS not increase

[Carbonated]

Every time somethings changed someones saying its a nerf someones saying its a gain.

 

I call it balancing.

[Pappus]

Even if you did not have points in hemorrhage at all this would net you a dps loss.

 

Only reasonable explanation is, that they increased the base damage of the skills to compensate.

 

I will be honest here. When I can see the oddness in this message in my halfsleep state right now, and they say it is a dps gain, they better be right or I will start wondering what kind of math guys there are over there.

 

That said I am confident that they increased the base damage though so that would be missing in our equation. However this doesn't make it on par with the old bleedout, but well 30% dmg increase on a 2 point talent was a bit much anyway

[PaZZo]

Guys, I´ve got an idea about this "dps increase". They say it´s "Overall" dps increase, did you calculated the resulting dmg when counting the ZEN uptime? Because if the crit chance is 100% (Zen), it seems like a buff actually. Only question about this is if the Zen have enough uptime to keep the resulting dps higher than according the pre-patch system.

 

this guy seems right to me

[Againstlaw]

Deal with it, we ops got way better points and got nerfed by 11% overall.

[NekoWAR]

Deal with it, we ops got way better points and got nerfed by 11% overall.

 

Deal with what? With the patchnotes that clearly state "damage increase" while doing exactly the opposite? NO WAI.

[Kormarf]

And suddenly, majority of players were wrong - ops/scoundrels dps output change has meant absolutely nothing. And now they can stunlock. People really shouldn't cry out loud considering that BW most likely does the math. I mean they ARE PROFESSIONALS, not some random forum lolguys implementing changes for the lulz

 

First, they didn't tell us about the resolve change which would most likely have mitigated a lot of the hate they got. Second, we aren't crying that we will be worthless just that they seem to have made a mistake saying that this will be a dps gain rather than a dps loss, tbh they should have made the changes without telling us whether its a gain or a loss.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kormarf

[cosmasterkiller]

People really shouldn't cry out loud considering that BW most likely does the math. I mean they ARE PROFESSIONALS, not some random forum lolguys implementing changes for the lulz

 

I'm a professional. There are a lot of posts put out with no effort, but there are a lot that are (maybe not on these forums). There is nothing that automatically makes you smarter by going to work for a gaming company or any company. You are the same person before and after you are hired. It's all a matter of how hard you want to work.

Edited February 2, 2012 by cosmasterkiller

[Skyliine]

Uhhhhh why are they increasing our DPS? I thought it was the fact we die every 2 seconds that was the problem not how fast we can kill something.....

[cosmasterkiller]

First, they didn't tell us about the resolve change which would most likely have mitigated a lot of the hate they got. Second, we aren't crying that we will be worthless just that they seem to have made a mistake saying that this will be a dps gain rather than a dps loss, tbh they should have made the changes without telling us whether its a gain or a loss.

 

Exactly, this is being sold as a dps increase when it is actually a dps decrease. I love BW, LOVE the game, and respect the devs. They need to either recalculate their changes or not state this as a dps increase in the official patch notes because it's not.

[cosmasterkiller]

Guys, I´ve got an idea about this "dps increase". They say it´s "Overall" dps increase, did you calculated the resulting dmg when counting the ZEN uptime? Because if the crit chance is 100% (Zen), it seems like a buff actually. Only question about this is if the Zen have enough uptime to keep the resulting dps higher than according the pre-patch system.

 

It still doens't net you a gain because it's still buffing a drastically reduced base damage.

[Tmbn]

Wow! I find it hard to believe Bioware are stating this as a buff if it is a nerf ?! There is probably some information that we don't know about. If they have calculated this wrong, just think of have many other things they could have calculated wrong. They can't be that sloppy! I have faith in when BW says this is an increase i damage, it is.

[Pappus]

The old system: (you can see a small test sample and a continuation of this discussion here)

The current system tooltips do not match up with actual in game math. The currrent system is doing the following:

Bleedout is currently giving us 30% damage to all bleed effects, not crit chance.

Deep Wound is unconfirmed. Without watching and counting 1000 ticks (or combat log) we can only assume it is affecting Rupture's direct damage correctly.

Hemorrhage is adding 4% instead of 6% additional damage to bleed damage. The first point provides ~2% increase, each additional point is ~1%.

 

New system proposed:

Hemorrhage: 15% bleed damage increase

Bleedout: 30% critical multiplier increase

 

Using the following stats as an example:

131 unmodified unskilled Rupture/Deadly Saber dot

25% crit chance

70% crit multiplier

 

Old System

In the old system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 301 critical dot

 

To explain those numbers we have the 131 base dot (no skills). We multiply that number times 1.3 for the 30% increase we WERE receiving from Bleedout. We then multiply times 1.04 for the 4% increase we WERE receiving from Hemorrhage. In the 2nd row, we multiply 1.7 for the critical multiplier.

 

Let's normalize that across 1000 dots. With a 25% crit chance that is 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

177 * 750 = 132,750 normal dot damage

301 * 250 = 75,250 critical damage

Grand total = 208,000

 

New System

In the new system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:

131 * 1.15 = 150.65 normal dot

131 * 1.15 * 2 = 301 critical dot

 

131 is still our base unskilled dot. The 1.15 is the new Hemorrhage (3 points at 5% for each point = 15%). The 1.3 is the "corrected" Bleedout critical multiplier number. We are multiplying times 2 because 70% is the base critical multiplier and Bleedout provides an additional 30% critical multiplier. We would assume it is additive. If that is incorrect and Bleedout is multiplicative then critical dot is 332 (and the final number still show new system a dps loss). We don't think Bleedout is multiplicative though.

 

So lets normalize the new system across 1000 dots. Same as above, 25% base crit chance gives us 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.

151 * 750 = 114,000

301 * 250 = 75,250

Grand total = 189,250

 

What about Juyo form and Juyo Mastery? The new system does value critical chance more than the old system, but you would still need over 98% crit chance for the new system to overtake the old system.

 

TL;DR

The old system and new system critical dot amounts are exactly the same. All that has changed is non-crit dots will be less than the old system's non-crit dots.

 

Unless there is something we are missing, this is a damage decrease.

 

You want proof, that your math is wrong?

 

Here we go:

Imagine we have two different damage increases one for 30% and another one for 30% aswell.

 

What you do is Basedmg*1,3*1,3, but 1,3*1,3 is 1,69 which is more then two times 30%. This is why you don't chain multiply.

 

Come into my thread you will see the correct math lurking there. Although I don't want to jump to conclusion I believe it will be a dps gain given very good gear. Full conclusion would mean to go with full rotations including berserk/zen over the course of a couple minutes.

[Kormarf]

You want proof, that your math is wrong?

 

Here we go:

Imagine we have two different damage increases one for 30% and another one for 30% aswell.

 

What you do is Basedmg*1,3*1,3, but 1,3*1,3 is 1,69 which is more then two times 30%. This is why you don't chain multiply.

 

Come into my thread you will see the correct math lurking there. Although I don't want to jump to conclusion I believe it will be a dps gain given very good gear. Full conclusion would mean to go with full rotations including berserk/zen over the course of a couple minutes.

 

Where does he multiply 1.3*1.3? I don't see that anywhere in his math. TBH his math all checks out to me but i'm no math major.

[KazDvs]

You're numbers for the current system seem off to me.

 

Why are you multiplying for bleedout and hemorrhage separately? This is inflating your numbers, and I would think that the game would treat all flat damage increases similarly and calculate them together before crits.

 

With this in mind the current system would have a 34% damage increase on all bleeds.

 

Using your numbers this would yield:

 

131 * 1.34 = 175 normal dot damage

(131 * 1.34) * 1.7 = 298 critical dot damage

 

175 * 750 = 131,250

298 * 250 = 74,500

total = 205,750

 

What I see is indeed a nerf to our non-crit bleed damage but a definite buff to our critical bleed damage, albeit small.

 

However you have failed to calculate the effect of Berserk in which has a VERY high uptime, so no Annihilation Marauder would every really have anything as paltry as a 25% effective critical chance.

 

This just further solidifies crit and surge as our primary stats, and let's us reach previously unattainable crit damage percentages as we ostensibly gain a free 30% critical damage unmodified by diminishing returns. Our damage will see a noticeable increase in DPS with more surge rating.

[KazDvs]

Where does he multiply 1.3*1.3? I don't see that anywhere in his math. TBH his math all checks out to me but i'm no math major.

 

He doesn't multiply 1.3*1.3, that was an an example the above poster was giving.

 

What he is doing is multiplying 1.04*1.3 which yields 1.352 a 35.2% damage increase from talents, when he should be adding the two together giving 1.34 a 34% damage increase from talents. This is all under the current system with the broken talents.

 

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177

 

131 * (1.3 + 1.04) = 175

 

See the difference?

[Kormarf]

He doesn't multiply 1.3*1.3, that was an an example the above poster was giving.

 

What he is doing is multiplying 1.04*1.3 which yields 1.352 a 35.2% damage increase from talents, when he should be adding the two together giving 1.34 a 34% damage increase from talents. This is all under the current system with the broken talents.

 

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177

 

131 * (1.3 + 1.04) = 175

 

See the difference?

 

Yeah I see the difference, still this doesn't really feel like a buff it feels like a reorganization of numbers to fix bleedout that just happened to come out in our favor so they labeled it as a buff to make us feel happy. Overall we are looking at small dps increase over long fights and an even smaller increase in pvp.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kormarf

[RamzaBehoulve]

They fixed our +30% crit bonus talent because WE asked them to. You should be happy they actually boosted Plasma a bit to compensate. They didn't have to.

 

Besides, those calculations do not take into account using Zen almost all the time, so it should actually be the same or slightly better than before, not a nerf.

 

Compared to Combat lagging behind, Watchman players really shouldn't complain.

Edited February 2, 2012 by RamzaBehoulve

[KazDvs]

Looking at the numbers further while his math is a bit off, I do believe the OP is in fact correct now.

 

No matter how you look at this it is about a 19% damage nerf. No amount of crit damage percent (surge rating) seems to balance out the loss of the 30% extra damage.

 

In fact I was WAY off when predicting that high levels of surge would help. It looks like this change will benefit those who are at lower levels of surge and be a detriment to those who are at higher levels of surge.

 

Base 70% crit damage

 

Old : (131 * (1.04 + 1.3)) * 1.7 = 298

 

New : (131 * 1.15) * (1.7 + 0.3) = 301

 

Looks like a slight buff, let's kick it up to 100% bonus crit damage base.

 

Old : (131 * (1.04 + 1.3)) * 2 = 351

 

New : (131 * 1.15) * (2 + 0.3) = 346

 

Huh? That doesn't look good. Let's go further, bump it up to crazy number and say 150% bonus crit damage.

 

Old : (131 * (1.04 + 1.3)) * 2.5 = 438

 

New : (131 * 1.15) * (2.5 + 0.3) = 421

 

 

It's the same as you go higher with the gap getting wider and wider.

 

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, cause I don't wanna be right.

[Lexster]

Wheres the combat boost?

[Tumri]

They need to make Hemmorage a 20-25% DoT damage boost to make this an even trade.

[cosmasterkiller]

He doesn't multiply 1.3*1.3, that was an an example the above poster was giving.

 

What he is doing is multiplying 1.04*1.3 which yields 1.352 a 35.2% damage increase from talents, when he should be adding the two together giving 1.34 a 34% damage increase from talents. This is all under the current system with the broken talents.

 

131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177

 

131 * (1.3 + 1.04) = 175

 

See the difference?

 

They are not additive. It is 131 * 1.3 * 1.04.

 

Please head here: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

[KazDvs]

They are not additive. It is 131 * 1.3 * 1.04.

 

Please head here: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list

 

I'm not going to hunt through that thread but I don't see anything to say that they aren't additive. Quite to the contrary in fact as this is at the top of the page:

 

"Note: Bonuses from Buffs and Skills are additive to whatever stat they apply. For example a 5% crit buff adds 5% to your total crit, there's no fancy math there."

[VirgiI]

As an operative I'm relishing your tears. I'm so happy you guys got exactly what you wanted: you got the nerf ball rolling.

 

I will continue to rofl when sorcs and mercs get nerfed next patch. Cheers to all you PvP scrublets that don't know what a cc breaker is!

[Miallen]

BW is officially pushing the Sorcerers as the Official Class of TOR.

 

Working as intended.

[cosmasterkiller]

Crit damage bonus is additive. Base damage modifiers for an ability are multiplicative. If you had a skill that increased bonus damage, that would be additive.

 

This formula matches the in game numbers. What you are recommending could make sense if that is how they did it, but that's not how BW is doing it.

 

I apologize if I'm being short of words but I'm repeating myself over and over on multiple threads.