Induction Nerf?

[Tooslick]

The tooltip says that surging charge is now required to get the -25% force cost of shock lowered, however, after testing it using dark charge, I'm still getting the proc.

 

I've heard rumors that this is how its supposed to work in an upcoming patch or that it could be just a misprint of the tooltip.

 

Does anyone know for sure? Is this a documented nerf / adjustment of the ability?

[SeppTB]

A full thread on this and other issues like it, here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=255746

 

By all appearances, a number of tooltip updates for upcoming, but as of yet not mechanically implemented, changes made it through in the various 1.1.(0abc/1) patches.

[DarthCnox]

Most people are assuming this is the way the talent is headed.

 

I think it's total crap.

 

I don't know why BW needs to fiddle in this aspect of the game. People actually are trying out different builds and seeing different strengths and weaknesses of each, and it's making the class more interesting to play. But now they want to make it so that we don't have those options anymore. It just makes no sense.

 

Is there really nothing else in the entire game universe that wouldn't need more urgent attention?

 

It just blows my mind.

[Nethershadow]

Yes it is to stop all the dps noobs from running in DC, so that the ´proper´ tree charge is actually used and no more being great dps and tank in one build.

 

I really did like the hybrid flavor as Darth above me mentions, but considering DC gives your the majority of your tanking ability it is bad design to allow all the dps specs to get its benefits without giving up anything. It makes more sense to me if dps could utilize either of the two dps charges to customize how they want to do damage.

 

Changes in design are needed, otherwise the class will stay broken with alot of unused talents/abilities.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nethershadow

[Tooslick]

Jeez like -25% shock cost is making us darkness specced OP...please

 

You need to go in 12 points into deception to pick this up and it's not common to any tanking specs. All it does it hurt those that want and enjoy a hybrid syle of play. Heaven forbid we actually want to survive a bit longer in pvp and not hit like a wet noodle.

 

Looks like my dream 21/13/7 build will be a distant memory soon.

[DarthCnox]

Jeez like -25% shock cost is making us darkness specced OP...please

 

You need to go in 12 points into deception to pick this up and it's not common to any tanking specs. All it does it hurt those that want and enjoy a hybrid syle of play. Heaven forbid we actually want to survive a bit longer in pvp and not hit like a wet noodle.

 

Looks like my dream 21/13/7 build will be a distant memory soon.

 

Um, I wouldn't say it's making darkness spec OP, but the induction talent was _the_ deciding factor (for me) between a 27/14/0 and 24/0/13 (or whatever the madness build is).

 

And I don't even see this issue as some sort of to much damage output or anything...I really don't do a ton of damage, and I really don't dominate the battlefield. I feel like this is just comming down to 'Bioware thinks that assassin players should not be mixing their talents across the trees because ... because...because some dev somewhere has their feelings hurt that you don't want to take the top tier talents out of Darkness.' I mean, I can't even think of a good reason for this attitude.

 

The problem is not that deception talents are so good, the problem is that the upper talents in darkness are just not worth it.

[Angina]

Changes like this are actually an effort to assure that the game stays balanced. You can't balance abilities, specs, or talents in a game like this without limiting what is possible. Rift has been struggling with this same problem by having un-intended combinations of specs becoming god-like (the huge talent trees in that game make it even hard to balance).

 

I actually think this game has done a decent job of having core trees but some very arguable choices in different directions, but if they can't balance the game out you get something like what was happening with the Operatives. How many times was I burst from full to dead by a keyboard turning Operative? IWINBYSPEC is fail game design, forcing people to use a talent tree as intended (the different charges being used as intended, for example nothing would stop you from changing to dark charge during a defensive phase of a pvp encounter, but you have to sacrifice DPS to get it) allows for balancing.

[Fashooba]

I think the goal is plain and simple : eliminate hybrids so balancing is easier.

 

I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is easier to balance 3 specs per class than 6.

 

I just wished they did some research first and started with this method .. its obvious from any game in the past that used talent trees .. people enjoy hybrids. Not because it gives them an advantage but it lets players enjoy the game in their own style rather than a preset cookie-cutter style.

 

 

Bioware - respect the players. We happen to be the ones giving you a paycheck.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Fashooba

[Technohic]

The more I think about it, the more I rather they do this over nerfing DC or nerfing the reduction in action cost it gives a deception spec. Could feel like a nerf in general, but in the long run I think things will balance out as they tweak.

[Tooslick]

Changes like this are actually an effort to assure that the game stays balanced. You can't balance abilities, specs, or talents in a game like this without limiting what is possible. Rift has been struggling with this same problem by having un-intended combinations of specs becoming god-like (the huge talent trees in that game make it even hard to balance).

 

I actually think this game has done a decent job of having core trees but some very arguable choices in different directions, but if they can't balance the game out you get something like what was happening with the Operatives. How many times was I burst from full to dead by a keyboard turning Operative? IWINBYSPEC is fail game design, forcing people to use a talent tree as intended (the different charges being used as intended, for example nothing would stop you from changing to dark charge during a defensive phase of a pvp encounter, but you have to sacrifice DPS to get it) allows for balancing.

 

I agree in efforts to keep things balanced...the OP nerf was justified but please don't compare it to a -25% force cost proc on shock. It's not even in the same league. The 21/13/7 build I made reference to isn't that popular and no other classes whined about it. It's not even just a hybrid nerf but I know deception specced sins that use DC a lot and it hurts even them.

 

If Bioware really didn't want us messing with hybrid specs then they should have done what WoW and other games did. Either move the abilities up higher in the tree or force a 31 point build in one of the trees before being allowed points in others.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Tooslick

[DarthCnox]

I don't even understand what 'balance' is achieved on this. We already have like 3 or 4 different build specs that people dabble in going deep in 1 tree, or mixing it up with others.

 

ALL of these builds have tradeoffs. That's the balance! You loose aoes if you go with one build, or self heals if you go with another, or using spikes out of setalth with another build, etc. The fact that there are different viable choices to me indicates that things are in a good working order! You start limiting those choices, then suddenly you're left with 'the one' effective build, and then everyone becomes cookie-cut.

 

When did 'cookie-cutter' design become the desired outcome?

[Viliphied]

Think of it this way, ignoring minor differences, with no hybrids there are 8*3 = 24 different possible specs to balance in both PvP and PvE. With hybrids, there are 8*6 = 48 different specs. Not only that, but when balancing a tier 3 talent with a "pure" spec in mind, you have to be sure not to break a hybrid. That's ignoring group balance, which is also a very serious consideration. It's just far, FAR easier to say "here's your 3 options, pick one". It's not laziness on the part of the devs either, balancing 24 different specs including group and role considerations is still a huge task.

 

Now, they probably should have just done this at release, but I understand why they're doing it.

[schmak]

I am curious how this could change my gear though.

 

For PVE I am stacked to hilt with crit and surge.

 

If its a guaranteed proc every time Lightning Charge goes off, should I dump all the crit and surge for power? Essentially stealing sorc gear? What's the only thing else that benefits? Creeping death?

 

Even then more power would make harder hits, just less crits and less damage on crits, again neutralized by the increase in power.

 

Then they would need to change all the gear to reflect that change in stats... oh wait, it all still has accuracy on it.

[DarthCnox]

Think of it this way, ignoring minor differences, with no hybrids there are 8*3 = 24 different possible specs to balance in both PvP and PvE. With hybrids, there are 8*6 = 48 different specs. Not only that, but when balancing a tier 3 talent with a "pure" spec in mind, you have to be sure not to break a hybrid. That's ignoring group balance, which is also a very serious consideration. It's just far, FAR easier to say "here's your 3 options, pick one". It's not laziness on the part of the devs either, balancing 24 different specs including group and role considerations is still a huge task.

 

Now, they probably should have just done this at release, but I understand why they're doing it.

 

I'm sure they do not look at it that way. They look at what the benefit of the talent gives, what the overall capabilities of the class are, and what they envision the class to behave.

 

They don't go and look at each permutation of talent builds and compare them to all the other types.

 

In the case of operatives, they didn't say 'Wow, compared to these 3 builds in merc and 2 builds in sorcs and 1 build in assassin, and based on that, we have to say that we are going to reduce armor penetation, the stun, and X/Y/Z.'

 

Instead they say 'Ok, looking at these numbers in this particular build, we see that this damage output is 20-25% above what we want from the class, in addition the player is not in control for a certain amount of time, and they are doing this by using 1 ability. So, how do we get that in line? We do X,Y,Z, that will reduce the damage output, reduce the CC etc.

 

Balancing classes means that within certain roles, the classes can yield certain results. A class is out of balance when they are exceeding tolerances. In this way, the game makers can balance classes to fit certain roles, and then only have to concern them with the 3 or 4 roles in the game, and then within those classes how those classes can perform those roles.

 

So, getting back to my origional point, I don't see what the purpose of this change is. They have properly balanced the talent tree such that in order to gain one perk, you have to give up something else. That's the 'balance' of it. Of course certain play styles will be able to leverage one configuration over an other, but it's not like you can say 'this is THE build that you are going to play if you wish to use the darkness tree. Once they make these changes, there's going to be a single build if you want to play darkness or madness or deception.

 

Perhaps part of the problem here is that we're only seeing part of the intended changes in the talent tree. Maybe they'll introduce something or change /buff things such that you can go pure darkness and have fun. Currently for me, it's not the case: I have to really ease up on making attacks to avoid force starvation if I go all into darkness. To me, that's boring, so I give up wither, and other top tier talents for induction. But I still am playing the defensive role that darkness affords (force pulls, spikes, shields, etc).

[Viliphied]

Instead they say 'Ok, looking at these numbers in this particular build, we see that this damage output is 20-25% above what we want from the class, in addition the player is not in control for a certain amount of time, and they are doing this by using 1 ability. So, how do we get that in line? We do X,Y,Z, that will reduce the damage output, reduce the CC etc.

 

Ok, looking at the numbers Deception is putting out, we'll change ability X to put it in line with what we think the numbers should be.

 

What is X? Allowing hybrids, X can ONLY be the 31 point skill without consideration for how it affects other builds. Without allowing hybrids, X can be anything from tier 3 up.

 

In other words, it's MUCH easier to balance Induction if you don't have to worry about if they have access to Energize/Electrify.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Viliphied

[DarthCnox]

Ok, looking at the numbers Deception is putting out, we'll change ability X to put it in line with what we think the numbers should be.

 

What is X? Allowing hybrids, X can ONLY be the 31 point skill without consideration for how it affects other builds. Without allowing hybrids, X can be anything from tier 3 up.

 

In other words, it's MUCH easier to balance Induction if you don't have to worry about if they have access to Energize/Electrify.

 

While that's true, we could also make it really easy and just say that there's just 1 class in the game.

 

My point (again) is that I don't see how this particular change with induction would throw damage output out of whack. Since you're not 31, you don't have the aoe damage, etc. So, again, you're trading one type of damage for another, while still maintaining the 'balance zone' of the class. This is what I don't understand, and why I voice my confusion at BW that why are they even CONSIDERING changes like this when there isn't a problem here that needs fixing (aside from they don't like the idea of hybrid builds and then will do things to restrict it).

 

If they want people to focus on a particular tree, then they should do what others have mentioned about WoW and lock the tree until you spend 31 pts in it. Of course, WoW didn't start out this way and only was really done once you had like 61 pts of abilities to spend, so this isn't really apples to apples.

[Viliphied]

While that's true, we could also make it really easy and just say that there's just 1 class in the game.

 

My point (again) is that I don't see how this particular change with induction would throw damage output out of whack. Since you're not 31, you don't have the aoe damage, etc. So, again, you're trading one type of damage for another, while still maintaining the 'balance zone' of the class. This is what I don't understand, and why I voice my confusion at BW that why are they even CONSIDERING changes like this when there isn't a problem here that needs fixing (aside from they don't like the idea of hybrid builds and then will do things to restrict it).

 

If they want people to focus on a particular tree, then they should do what others have mentioned about WoW and lock the tree until you spend 31 pts in it. Of course, WoW didn't start out this way and only was really done once you had like 61 pts of abilities to spend, so this isn't really apples to apples.

 

Because, again, doing this they don't have to worry about if people have (in this specific example, but the philosophy applies throughout all of the classes/trees) Energize, Electrify, Blood of Sith, Unearthed Knowledge, or even (realistically) Lightning Reflexes or Claws of Decay when balancing Induction. How much damage people do or whether it's AOE or ST has absolutely nothing to do with it. There doesn't need to be a "problem here that needs fixing" NOW, they're working to eliminate (for example) making Darkness/Deception 'sins ludicrously overpowered with fixes meant to boost pure Deception.

[lotusedge]

I run a 2/31/8 spec that uses induction proc and chain shock while in dark charge to let me stay in team fights longer while putting out sustained dps. This change will change my build quite a bit.