Deception is NOT for pvp

[Krytycal]

Getting 5 stacks of Surging Discharge is about as practical as getting 3 stacks of HD. Actually, the latter is far more practical and does more damage, but you'd still never use the latter because it's a waste of time to devote about 10 GCDs just for one big hit when you can kill most characters in 10 GCDs.

 

Maul is generally defeated by kiting, especially if you've 31 points into Deception then you don't have extra duration Force Shroud or Force Speed breaking roots, which is the primary methods to deal with kiters. Of course a proced Maul hits hard, because it's very hard to actually use against good players, especially if you didn't have the anti-kiting talents from Darkness, which you won't have if you got 31 points into Deception.

 

For the most part Deception is fine if you're always medicore. Once you have your 'awesome match' once, you better hope whoever you're up against doesn't remember you because once the enemy picks up the fact that you don't suck, they'll make it dificult for you to get those numbers again the next time you meet them by killing you first. Once you have 'the Grudge' situation, so to speak, Deception is quickly rendered useless as there is absolutely no way for Deception to defend against a concentrated effort to take a character down since it is one of the most vulnerable classes (vanish is not a defense, it's waving the white flag).

 

Now you ask how does Darkness defend against 'the Grudge'? It doesn't have to because Darkness assassins are basically tanks, so if someone has a grudge against a Darkness Assassin, it's almost like your taunt works on them and that'd be best for your side. Yes you'll still die a lot too in the similar situation, but the difference is that your team wants the enemy to focus on the Darkness Assassins, while your team doesn't want the Deception Assassins to be focused on since the latter has no survivality to speak of.

 

To be sure most people don't put up amazing numbers no matter what spec they are in, so people aren't going to specficially trying to gun you down if your stats look the same as the other 25 Assassins they saw. But as you get better at the game, always keep in mind the enemy gets a vote on who they want to shut down, and if you're doing as well as you claim, they will try to shut you down. In all my games I get hounded by multiple enemies the entire time even when I'm nowhere near the objectives. If I am in Deception, I'm just that much easier to kill. They still won't leave me alone no matter what spec I am in.

 

You don't need 6 stacks of Surging Discharge to hit hard with Discharge. I do it right after Shock and it hits plenty hard (harder than anything else short of proc'ed shocks). It's also a lot more practical than getting 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness then channeling FL with all the CC/Knockdowns flying around. Also keep in mind that Discharge does Internal damage, whereas FL is energy, so it will do considerably less damage on tanks.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Darkness here, I personally always recommend it to new assassins in our guild trying to get into PvP. Just because it's easier to do well with Darkness doesn't mean Deception is bad.

[Astarica]

You don't need 6 stacks of Surging Discharge to hit hard with Discharge. I do it right after Shock and it hits plenty hard (harder than anything else short of proc'ed shocks). It's also a lot more practical than getting 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness then channeling FL with all the CC/Knockdowns flying around. Also keep in mind that Discharge does Internal damage, whereas FL is energy, so it will do considerably less damage on tanks.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Darkness here, I personally always recommend it to new assassins in our guild trying to get into PvP. Just because it's easier to do well with Darkness doesn't mean Deception is bad.

 

If someone CCed you out of Force Lightning you should thank them for wasting a CC on such a cheap ability. But that's another reason why you shouldn't wait for 3 stacks of HD before doing Force Lightning. Yes Surging Charge is internal damage but the only target that's heavily armored that has high value are Darkness Assassin and Mercs. Usually Surging Charge will hit for in the range of say an Assassinate or EW Maul, which is pretty good but 1 stack HD FL will do about the same damage too. Yes it takes longer to do FL but you can also use it twice as often as Discharge, and snare has all kinds of useful side effect in PvP.

 

Darkness is strictly better than Deception. Just because you can do okay as Deception (if you somehow managed to keep a low profile) doesn't mean it's balanced. Actually the real culprit here is Dark Charge, not the tree itself. Notice how 'hybrid' Darkness/Madness builds still PvP in Dark Charge 99% of the time? Deception is weak in the sense that the entire tree is built to around Surging Charge, while Madness doesn't really depend on Lightning Charge (yet). The difference between Dark and any other charge is roughly +33% damage taken, and that's way too big an amount of survivality to give up for arguably very little DPS gain unless you think the enemy will never attack you. But if you're putting up impressive numbers, it's just a matter of time before the enemy decides to eliminate the source of the problem, and your lack of defenses as Deception will be exposed.

 

Look at all the utility or whatever you think is cool in Deception, and ask is that worth taking +33% damage on every attack compared to the de facto stance of any other tree (Dark Charge). This isn't a matter of skill or whatever. Dark Charge characters are simply much harder to kill, and the enemy will generally want to kill you even if you've no particular reputation.

[Shalashasa]

OK HERE IT IS

 

finally got twitch to work

http://www.twitch.tv/shalashasa

 

you can watch me all night....

 

Ill pvp with deception until it makes me want to vomit then im going to respec.

[Shalashasa]

I agree to everything you say Asterica but it goes a lot further than people just wanting to kill you because your you.

 

Deception is not just squishy its also very predictable. it has no utility its damage that's dependent on charging up skills for a bursts. This is fail if anyone with half a brain sees your yoyo sword and knows how to deal with you.

[Cowflab]

OK HERE IT IS

 

finally got twitch to work

http://www.twitch.tv/shalashasa

 

you can watch me all night....

 

Ill pvp with deception until it makes me want to vomit then im going to respec.

 

Are you modded for Crit+surge? If not that is another reason for your lackluster performance.

[Astarica]

I agree to everything you say Asterica but it goes a lot further than people just wanting to kill you because your you.

 

Deception is not just squishy its also very predictable. it has no utility its damage that's dependent on charging up skills for a bursts. This is fail if anyone with half a brain sees your yoyo sword and knows how to deal with you.

 

Well the thing is that if you stop the Induction stacks, the Deception build is pretty much useless. The enemy doesn't necessarily have to know this. They just have to keep you out of melee distance, and while people may want to pretend they never get kited in all their games, this simply isn't what actually happens. Actually the 31/0/10 is pretty much the bane of the Deception Assassins. Once you get Wither on you, you pretty much have no chance to melee anyone that knows how to strafe since Wither is the most crippling snare in the game due to its duration (i.e. basically forever). This also works in the other direction, i.e. anyone who has Wither on is an easy target for a Deception Assassin. However, you can't PvP around an ability your spec doesn't have!

[Bidj]

Personaly, as a full BM deception sin (except for 1 relic), I find that the spec is very good for bursting people. I can easily 1v2 full champion geared people.

 

As mentioned above by another poster, you need to mod some sophistication: drop to 95% precision and add some crit/surge (take it from sorcerer champion head for example).

[Shalashasa]

well i got it to work now without crashing. im wearing battlemaster stalker set.

 

...nevermind it crashes evertime i minimize. so once i start streaming I cant type.

 

ill have to mess with it and find out the settings. this will take awhile. anyway My point was to show you how I could get kills, medals, and be on top easily.

 

The point isnt that a good player can somehow get deception to work. Its the fact that your tryign really hard to make a spec thats not meant for pvp to work for pvp.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shalashasa

[Astarica]

Personaly, as a full BM deception sin (except for 1 relic), I find that the spec is very good for bursting people. I can easily 1v2 full champion geared people.

 

As mentioned above by another poster, you need to mod some sophistication: drop to 95% precision and add some crit/surge (take it from sorcerer champion head for example).

 

Champion geared guy give up maybe 2% stats compared to a full BM. Not even Operactive, in all their pre nerf glory, could do this (they can take out one guy but the second guy would definitely get them, and often they'd just get chain stunned before they can finish the first guy). It does no good talking about stories where you're not aware of what actually happened (i.e. 2 guys were pumping tracer missiles into the face of another guy). In a 1 on 2, an Assassin always loses especially when you talk about such a minuscle diffference in gear unless the enemy is just downright horrible at playing.

 

I mean, the Deception Assassin has one of the lowest defenses in the game, so for you to even kill one person, you have to be doing more than the two guy's DPS put together (since neither of them is likely to be taking more damage than you). And that's just to defeat one person. You still got the other person to defeat.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Astarica

[sankalp]

This thread as taught me a lot on what to do and what not to do.

 

Thanks to the people who actually posted helpful stuff. I am learning how to be good as a deception sin, and also learning how I can be better by using the tricks that darkness sins use.

 

Gr8 Vids, though, need to study them a bit more.

[Shalashasa]

Champion geared guy give up maybe 2% stats compared to a full BM. Not even Operactive, in all their pre nerf glory, could do this (they can take out one guy but the second guy would definitely get them, and often they'd just get chain stunned before they can finish the first guy). It does no good talking about stories where you're not aware of what actually happened (i.e. 2 guys were pumping tracer missiles into the face of another guy). In a 1 on 2, an Assassin always loses especially when you talk about such a minuscle diffference in gear unless the enemy is just downright horrible at playing.

 

I mean, the Deception Assassin has one of the lowest defenses in the game, so for you to even kill one person, you have to be doing more than the two guy's DPS put together (since neither of them is likely to be taking more damage than you). And that's just to defeat one person. You still got the other person to defeat.

 

The problem with bursts in this game is that there are invulnerability shields that negate burst.

Assassin:

"Oh well even as an Assassin I might die in 5-6 hits but I can kill a guy in 10seconds."

 

Enemy:

"Well I have a practically invulnerable shield that lasts 10 seconds and heal that heals almost 50% of my health. Now how fast can you kill me?"

[Nocorras]

I decided to humor a guy by going deception again (for the hundreth time). Now I remember, again, why it sucks so badly. You have less damage than a marauder or Operative. Then you have less cc, shield, or survival ability of both.

 

If your a deception assassin in pvp then you have no clue what your doing.

 

Deception is good for good players. Don't knock a spec just because you're not good at it.

[ReFlexionn]

who are you fighting that doesnt notice that after 2 voltic slashes comes the big hits? Almost every class has some kind of shield or invulnerablity that will mess up your rotation and leave you with your pants down.

 

 

that's why i don't wear pants

[Nocorras]

I think I'm going to have to start streaming pvp to show bad kids how to play Deception and not suck. Tank spec is good but boring as **** all to play. Edited February 2, 2012 by Nocorras

[Shalashasa]

I think I'm going to have to start streaming pvp to show bad kids how to play Deception and not suck. Tank spec is good but boring as **** all to play.

 

If I decided to play Assassin to tank I wouldnt be complaining about the faults of Deception nor would anybody else.

 

I would rather Assassinate people with my Assassin. Be the dps in the shadow. Kill the target, and with the right skills, hopefully escape without dieing.

 

These are the traits of an Operative. Yes, Operatives can assassinate better than an Assassin.

 

Hell, the point of this thread is to let people understand that a Tankassin can Assassinate better than an Assassin.

 

If I sucked at Deception and was complaining that Deception sucks that would be one thing. The point is Im probably better than anyone on this forum as a Deception yet I still wont use it over Darkness.

 

...Why?

 

Because the Nature of PVP isnt to handicap yourself just for giggles. Its to strive to be the best. I find it annoying if I cant kill someone or some class because of my skill tree not because of my personal skill.

 

With Darkness I can kill anyone if I time my skills right and play right. I have enough tools to kill anything. With Deception your limited.

 

I hate the play style of Darkness and love the idea of Deception. Though I play Darkness it because its what works and Deception currently doesnt.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shalashasa

[ReFlexionn]

lmao, i just solo'd 2 shadow on my marauder, both of em were deception equivalent. i had to use ALL my cds and expertise stim >.> i felt op for a sec

[Nocorras]

dsfaasdfsdfdsfasdf Edited February 2, 2012 by Nocorras

[Talraen]

My 2c as a deception spec assassin:

 

I like how the skills work, and the improvement from Thrash to Voltaic is nice. But if you pop out of stealth at the wrong time / discovered, hell if in any way you become the target of more that 1 person (or even take an AoE or 2) you are going to bite it.

 

The fact that Maul needs a proc to really shine is annoying - and the fact that that proc requires melee dmg removes Maul as an opener from stealth. They would make this spec better simply by making Maul an auto-crit from stealth, so that you have more choices available over opening with Spike.

 

That said I'm never under 8 medals in Deception.

[ReFlexionn]

me neither as darkness

 

with some deception stuffs

Edited February 2, 2012 by ReFlexionn

[spond]

I love these threads. I’m a Sin Assassin Dec “Full”. I chose this rout because that’s what I want to be. Granted, this is a slightly harder class to master, but that is the point “Master”. I love this class. I can’t take on a tank one on one and expect to win; that’s not what this class is built. We are built to be opportunistic jerks, ganking healers and other support players.

 

One on ones is not our game. If that is what’s you’re looking for, play a tank. This class is all about being a disruptor with well-timed kills. Most warzones do not lend themselves to the well planned gank, but in open world PVP, you can ruin many players days. Roll with a Jug and a healer, keep yourself cloaked, and wait for an opportunistic event. You’ll find this to be the best application of the assassin deception spec.

 

Last, I’m glad that the main complaint about this class is “underpowered”. That way we don’t have an operative type slap down that makes me rethink my entire strategy. Those guys are ready to jump, but being the class that is the least complained about allows you time to master your rotation and strategy; allowing the more skilled players to be assets for longer periods of time.

[Fairell]

lmao, i just solo'd 2 shadow on my marauder, both of em were deception equivalent. i had to use ALL my cds and expertise stim >.> i felt op for a sec

 

you must have been dueling terrible shadows.

 

who are you fighting that doesnt notice that after 2 voltic slashes comes the big hits? Almost every class has some kind of shield or invulnerablity that will mess up your rotation and leave you with your pants down.

 

voltic slash, voltic slash, hit. Is the most stupid idea for a combo system.

 

A lot of cc? what cc are you talking about. Name the cc you have in Deception tree that is more than any other assassin tree. you cant? because there isnt any!

 

You have no idea what your talking about.

 

i know firsthand what im talking about. low slash is an additional cc. yes, deception dies faster. but hes going to hurt. A LOT. the tree is somewhat halfa.ss designed, but good players will still rock.

 

watched your stream. you have no clue how to play as deception

[spond]

you must have been dueling terrible shadows.

 

 

 

i know firsthand what im talking about. low slash is an additional cc. yes, deception dies faster. but hes going to hurt. A LOT. the tree is somewhat halfa.ss designed, but good players will still rock.

 

watched your stream. you have no clue how to play as deception

 

I have to agree with both observations. Expert players in tank or other DPS classes should be able to eliminate an assassin deception build. However, if you’re getting in a one on one in open world PVP with either, you are not an expert Deception Assassin. This class is like a DPS with healer limitations. You will benefit most with another player as the focus of the initial assault.

[kijthae]

it should be Assasin is NOT for pvp.

[Brekor]

I actually target deception assassins for a quick kill on purpose either out in ilum or warzone. There isnt a single good Deception Assassin I have seen. Maybe good players, but they suck when on Deception.

 

Show me one video that actually shows a Deception assassin doing something decent. You wont find it.

 

 

Two Deception Assassins tearing sh@# up.

 

Also, I too play a deception assassin, and have no issues at all. Maybe when being focused, but thats why Bioware gave us force cloak and such...

[spond]

 

Two Deception Assassins tearing sh@# up.

 

Also, I too play a deception assassin, and have no issues at all. Maybe when being focused, but thats why Bioware gave us force cloak and such...

 

Exactly, when things are not going well…. Blackout. Dec Assassins that do not use this in open world are not “skilled” players.

 

Last, I’m the last guy you want to single out. Chances are, you will be entering another fight soon. When you’re at 50%, disrupt, gank, disrupt, gank, disrupt, gank, and finish you off.

 

While your teammate is wondering if they’re going to OZ or busy fighting the weird stuff going on in their head.

Edited February 2, 2012 by spond