DrHalux Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 My question (and this is an honest question, not a backhanded insult) is: why do you need the gear progression in PvP to increase your stats? As opposed to a gear progression that is different in terms of asthetics/visual appearance (or something else, this was just one example) If the answer is: because i want to be some how recognized for my characters progression. I again ask why does that progression have to be an increase in stats? I understand that a lot (not all of course) of MMO players like to feel as though they are working towards a goal and enjoy being rewarded for reaching said goal. But again why do players want that reward to be a stat boost? I suppose you could answer this question with a remark such as: well if no stat progression on gear, then why even have character levels and more abilities per level? Isn't that the same as gaining stats with better PvP gear? (which is responding to my question with a question, and not really an answer) My thought is that it's different. Yes a higher level character should be more powerful, but shouldn't characters of equal level have equality in how well they perform their roles in PvP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetflair Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) It didn't matter in GW1 either. 10-49 bracket is hands down the better PvP scene if a more balanced play is what you're after. However most self-proclaimed PvP'ers do not want a balanced match. They want a steamroll that rewards them with gear and ego, preferably both. Well thats propably true. When I played WoW I loved the loved the lower brackets. Everybody screamed about twinks there but fact was that it was far easier in there to get what you need to get along than the highest bracket. Things like resilience and pvp gear system actually caused beginners to get slaughtered before they got the actual pvp gear. It was far more tedious and unpleasant to play highest bracket than others. But if you were somewhat experienced in pvp and could get even decent pve gear on lower brackets you had actually chance to make a difference. Players who were one shotted were mostly those who had no real experience of pvp and had lousy pve gear too. When they were on lower brackets they complained about twinks and on upper brackets they complained about faction imbalance. Oh well, luckily here its all different. Edited February 6, 2012 by Jetflair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenevo Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You should just play guildwars.The developers of that game (Anet) keep PvP on a even plaing field where skill is the determining factor of victory, It's by far the best PvP in a mmo i have played. For some reason not many ppl play this free to play MMO, probably becouse when they lose they have nothing to blame but themselves. The game looks pretty good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raice Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp. When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game. The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick? They do it anyway, dude. People who PvP don't do it for the gear - they do it because they like to play against potentially better players. This is why FPS games like CoD and BF are so popular and whose players continue to play the same maps day in and day out. The gear doesn't matter beyond the cosmetics - the unlocks of the more modern games are just bonus tools that you can switch in and out. They don't let you automatically win, since a superior player could trump the gear all day long. Gear does not matter in PvP. It doesn't have to exist. ADDITION:: I would also like to add here that the gear itself is not necessarily the problem. The problem is Expertise adding bonuses to something that is already superior. The whole "stat race in gear" is one thing that makes you as a lvl 50 more powerful than a lvl 10. This, to me, in an RPG is something to be expected. The good thing is, that BW implemented a very productive recipe that made this balanced - all players are the same statistically, yet higher level players have more abilities at their disposal. This is exactly the same difference produced in modern FPS games - the people at higher levels can carry flashbangs AND grenades instead of just one. Expertise throws that completely out of balance. It does not need to exist and completely undermines the point to PvP. Edited February 6, 2012 by Raice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anecdote Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Point is that in a game which revolves around skill, not gear, the most basic weapon can be just as good as anything unlocked because it depends on the person using it. I'd tell you to pack your bag, but it's already full of the gear you need to pretend to be good at PvP. /applaud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifewrench Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Almost 50 pages of the same people thinking they know how to create a game more successfully than BioWare does, by removing one of the key elements that keeps subscriptions rolling. Don't fool yourselves into thinking people will pay $15 a month to play for "fun" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patatt Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You know, with 50 pages of this, I'm not gonna read through it all, but I rerolled with the idea of filling a raid spot for my guild and truly began enjoying pvp again in the 10-49 bracket for two reasons: First, and this has been said I'm sure, it is more fun and less gear based. You find that a good pvper, no matter the level, can beat you. But you can beat them by being better. It's not only a great way to learn your class, but it takes the grind out of pvp and puts a little bit more competitiveness back into it. Second, grinding out 30 valor levels in the 50 bracket took it out of me, and I didn't care anymore about it. But being valor = level capped all the way up to 50 is quite enjoyable, and really it is the only way I see myself, as a semi-leisurely paced leveler and not the most intense pvp grinder, to be able to hit that BM valor rank while still enjoying myself. I also feel like now, when I hit the 50 bracket, I'll have something to show for it, with all of the pvp gear I will have amassed, some expertise enhancements, and 1k/1k comms to buy 5 bags (with one in the bank + the immediate 2x dailys + 2x weeklys) straight off the bat and maybe snag a piece of cent/champ gear (being sure to open said bags when the new patch hits). I mean, sure the 50 bracket might be full of BMs right now, and it's sad to see so many people being able to grind out to the higher valor levels so quickly already, because it doesn't leave much room for expanding PvP gear in the future without having the same issue we do now of too many people with full BM sets, but things are getting better as time progresses. Hopefully future PvP gear will create a better flow of the expertise system, but that is solely in BioWare's hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebi Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) Don't fool yourselves into thinking people will pay $15 a month to play for "fun" Yeah, I'd rather pay $15 a month to 'work'. Edited February 6, 2012 by Jebi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aritha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You can call me a troll but actually Call of Duty(multiplayer) is a kind of pvp game and mostly successful at it. You lvl up(kinda valor lvl), you get gear, you get new skills(perks) o the way and still it doesn't effect the game balance between a lvl70 and lvl1. I want variety differs from the current available pvp sets. Like crit heavy, power heavy, surge heavy on them. I don't like being powerful via gear, just want to be unique. Everyone does... So give me options, give me a couple of cool looking gear to chose for, a nice variety of mods(avaliable for all 50s) for my grind and let me prove myself in the field in equal circumstances. PvP looks like atm: grind X time kill a,b / grind Y time kill a,b,c. This is really old and doesn't fit the casual playerbase of today. Grinding should give me more options to chose so I can built up my character to my liking and playstyle. Big companies like Bioware should be brave about relasing a game like this. All i can see here is copy/paste in SWToR stlye. I'm giving my respect to Rift and GW for building new mechanics over the old ones. They bring some variety and improvement to the PvP genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctournys Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You can call me a troll but actually Call of Duty(multiplayer) is a kind of pvp game and mostly successful at it. You lvl up(kinda valor lvl), you get gear, you get new skills(perks) o the way and still it doesn't effect the game balance between a lvl70 and lvl1. . If you honestly believe that.. i dont even.. huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keadil Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Oh I'm sorry, you thought this was an FPS game. See in MMO's there is this thing called progression. I know this is a foreign concept to you but it is what every MMO is based on. We understand, go use yer crutch please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) You know what ? If I had been lvl 50 as approximately the same time as you, I can assure you that I will be splattering nearly all lowbies in the warzones when it was one big happy family. You had it easy climbing up your ladder to get the gear you have now. December 28-ish is only a week or more from release. If you had early access, then add a few more days. Ive only been 50 from approx the last 2 weeks. And i tell ya its hell compared to what you had to go through once they bracketed the 50's on their own. Of course you wouldnt be complaining by then, because you would be about half way decked out. You didnt start from scratch, and competing with all the other geared up 50's like what they have now. When you honestly make another alt, and lvl it up to 50, give it a go and enter the warzone. I know you will be better than the newer 50's due to decking out your 49's with purple mods and so on.... You'll be prepared... but you will also taste the sweet flavour of being owned much more than what youve experienced. Seriously, you had it too easy. Warzones now when you ding to 50, it isnt near as to what you went through. You joined late. YOUR FAULT, no one elses. early bird gets the worm. You line up to get the new ipad/iphone but there are people who were there days before you, so when you finally get in to the store they tell you, "We are all sold out". IT IS YOUR FAULT! It is not cheating. It is not an exploit. Im not in full battlemaster, I am 2 pieces off full champ with no battlemaster. Am I crying? No. I had to earn my bags and my gear. yes for a good part of my WZ's it was a mix of 10-50's which meant the chances of fighting someone who was geared up was reduced... IT WAS YOU who whinged and wanted the 50 bracket. You got it. Meanwhile I was one of the 50's with no gear fighting people who were, and still fighting people who are geared. Without a peep. So you blame everyone else because you were a late starter. I"TS NOT FAIR!" Soon there will be Skill brackets too. Meaning you wont have to fight big "geared" bullies like me. Not to mention your bags will give centurion AND Champ commendations so you can buy champ pieces that I have had to earn. Hell you'll be ablbe to buy your battlemaster kit too. But WE GOT IT EASY!?!?!? Point is that in a game which revolves around skill, not gear, the most basic weapon can be just as good as anything unlocked because it depends on the person using it. I'd tell you to pack your bag, but it's already full of the gear you need to pretend to be good at PvP. Really? So in Cod, the game which you say is all about skill not gear, we have a mexican stand-off. Both of us are in the open, both of us have the same traits/abilities, we both have the same amount of health/armour, we both aim at the centre of seen mass, and both fire at the same time... Only difference is you are firing a pistol and I fire a grenade launcher... I lose a small amount of health/armour... you die... instantly... Like the noob you are, because my GEAR IS BETTER THAN YOURS! In real life you are using a M4 carbine. A magazine fed, air cooled, assault rifle capable of both semi-automatic and automatic fire, using a 5.56mm x 45mm standard NATO F1 ball round, with a muzzle velocity of 930m/sec and effective fire up to 300m (400m section fire) if using standard ADI ammunition. You have stage 3 body armour with ballistic plates. I am carrying a Blazer .338, magazine fed, single shot, bolt action, sharpshooter rifle. I have stage 3 body armour with ballistic plates. We stand off at 100m, take aim at the center of scene mass, both pull the trigger at the same time and both find our mark... We both go down... Only difference is I get back up. Because my ballistic plates stop your single stirke from your 5.56x45mm round whilst my .338 not only shatters your ballstic plate but blows a fist sized hole out your back, and if you are really unlucky passes straight through the otherside of you ballistic vest (unless striking you back plate) GEAR WINS AGAIN. Yes, you could run around, hide behind cover, be a ninja and kill a rank 70 guy when you are rank 1... In SWTOR you can beat a geared toon using a non-geared toon. Its hard but its possible. I have seen it. The fact that you dont seem to think you can means you have never done it. Which means you are not half as skilled as you think you are. And even if you are skilled, you are only as good as your perform on the day. Even Bruce Lee could lose a fight against some homeless grandma in a scrap... Its unlikely but as mentioned anyone can have a bad day. There is no such thing as an even playing field. EVER. You have the same equipment someone has the iniative, the higher ground, cover, are better adapted to the environment, the weather, someone is better hydrated, better fed, has better morale, has more experience, knows the layout of the ground, has that little bit of extra willpower... In gaming sense the have a better latency menaing recuded lag... Not to mention someone can have pure 100% LUCK!!!!!! Edited February 6, 2012 by Zoggel Rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finreal Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'm all up for gear progression but 10-15% mitigation and extra damage? Why such a big advantage on top of the stat boost and armour/barrel? I'd settle for as little as 3%. I'd rather give my opponent a fair fight. If you don't get a decent fight on reasonably even ground, where's the challange? Where's the point? Unless of course you were a school bully and got your kicks beating up little kids. Warhammer's death knell was sounded when they added a fake expansion that boosted the level cap from 80-100 and included two retardedly overpowered gear sets that had to be nerfed in the end. Not that it mattered, the damage was done, those who didn't quit from being 2-3 shotted, gave up on the monster grind to avoid it. Oh and before the gear whorez start pointing fingers. I made it to rr100, got the gear and quit the game because I was 2-3 shotting people. It's just plain dull after the comedy factor wears off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyranoc Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'm all up for gear progression but 10-15% mitigation and extra damage? Why such a big advantage on top of the stat boost and armour/barrel? I'd settle for as little as 3%. I'd rather give my opponent a fair fight. If you don't get a decent fight on reasonably even ground, where's the challange? Where's the point? Unless of course you were a school bully and got your kicks beating up little kids. Warhammer's death knell was sounded when they added a fake expansion that boosted the level cap from 80-100 and included two retardedly overpowered gear sets that had to be nerfed in the end. Not that it mattered, the damage was done, those who didn't quit from being 2-3 shotted, gave up on the monster grind to avoid it. Oh and before the gear whorez start pointing fingers. I made it to rr100, got the gear and quit the game because I was 2-3 shotting people. It's just plain dull after the comedy factor wears off. I miss the day of my White Lion. Running around carrying "star breaker" was awesome. Was even more fun watching ppl run away from my pet yet alone my toon. I miss my Warpforged gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karcyon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) What I learned from 10-49 bracket: No PvP gear == more fun Having said that: I got lucky with my champion bags and have now ~500 expertise a few days after I dinged 50. But still, the 10-49 bracket was way more fun. In the lower brackets even a Level 20 could be useful, a brand new level 50 or a unlucky guy has no chance whatsoever! Edited February 6, 2012 by karcyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BambulaGTS Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Currently on 50 lvl wz (while not beeing in premaid group): Oh noes, 12 k hp hobos. On 1-49 lvl wz: Oh noes, 11 lvl nabs. Really the SAME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrok- Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) 10-49 teaches us that it's not gear that loses games, it's noobs and morons. 10-49 is unplayable because of all these people who have no idea how to use chat, interrupt, play their class, fight at objectives, etc. They also instantly leave as soon as they're finished giving their own team a serious disadvantage. Thank you so much BW for 50s bracket so I can choose to play with up to 87.5% less idiots. Edited February 6, 2012 by vrok- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrune Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I agree the OP about the stuff impact in PvP. Actually, I love the 11-49 PvP (but 11 is way to low) The second good effect of the low level bracet is less premade vs pick up. IMO, premade vs premade and pug vs pug is far more enjoyable to all but kiddies in needs of easy fights. Also, I would like to see a way to use the pvp ranks (like in war, rift, aoc, daoc, etc.). EDIT: sure, the noobs are here too, but in both side. One or two good players can make the match. About WAR : I don't think most war players loved the RR90+ change. I played a WL too, It was a great class and I had no need to dominate a destruction player with a lot of stuff to win or enjoy the fight. By the way this game is still opened and changes are coming, so... Edited February 6, 2012 by Hyrune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mactonight Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Being able to get new gear that is better than the gear you have as a fresh 50 is fine but the expertise makes all the difference its the same thing they killed wow PvP with when they added whatever that stat is before that you could get really good PvP gear you could just be killed by someone without it if you sucked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silcan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I dont understand, why grind to 50 and reroll? when its quicker to stay at 50 and get competive getting champ bags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrune Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I dont understand, why grind to 50 and reroll? when its quicker to stay at 50 and get competive getting champ bags? You will still play a stuff based game: In premade, you will face unstuffed 50 players and the fight will be boring as hell. Or you will randomly team up with unstuffed players and lose the game what even you can do by your self. I only focus the worse case scenarios, hopefully not every lvl 50 game will be bad Edited February 6, 2012 by Hyrune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirayuki Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I dont understand, why grind to 50 and reroll? when its quicker to stay at 50 and get competive getting champ bags? because no one wants to get owned for a week or two to get gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King-KoN Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Having gear is fine. However, gear difference should only be around 7-8% maximum difference. As of right now, the 15/15/15 expertise advantage is way to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandoArc Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You really could have done better than resorting to that kind of level for your argument. What level she went in to the is not truth TELL ME she is not or he is not talking BS he/she is saying the truth Allot of you seat in this game for hours and i can show you if i want i have recorde to see how long people play this game and god i record allot of PLayers in this game for 6+hours none stop thes allot of time And swg had the best pvp in ANY MMO out there it was all about your skills not the gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BambulaGTS Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) because no one wants to get owned for a week or two to get gear It is because geared players already got their epix by ingame mail directly from BW in the very moment they dinged 50. EZ PZ. Edited February 6, 2012 by BambulaGTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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