I'd be more than happy to pvp with this guy, even if he had only 10k hp! Great couple of posts my friend. If more people in this game's community had your attitude, we'd be much better off.

You really epitomize the inability of some gamers, whom these days, are unable to even comprehend something I like to call 'inherent PvP skills.' It's something that transcends gear, and something that I doubt someone like you, a gamer that cares about how a 12k hp'er might be a detriment to your ability to pug a win, probably doesn't have. Bro.

I had to log in just to quote this post. Ya, you know, that thing called 'community?' Helping your faction get better? Overcoming adversity / disadvantages? Oh wait, this game is about gear grinding and not giving two ***** about who you're playing with. I completely forgot.

...and also no reason to PvP? I mean, in a game where PvP has rewards that make winning worthwhile, say a special item or mount, or something to show for it, you'll find more competition. But in a game like SWTOR, if there was no PvP gear, why would anyone choose to PvP in the first place? You can't honestly believe that 90% of the people who actively PvP would be happy with a rewardless-combat system. I mean, the PvP combat in SWTOR just isn't very satisfactory on it's own. Sure, there are some fun interactions at times, and the experience for the 10-49 bracket can help cut some of the bland leveling grind, but if we had no PvP gear to gain as a reward in the 50 bracket, what would keep you fighting? This is honestly the reason why I rerolled onto another pvp char once I hit 50 pre the bag fix patch, because it was absolutely no fun running 10 warzones for a chance at one Champ bag that most likely wouldn't contain loot anyways. After not getting any loot from the 'rewards' of 60+ warzones, i found my breaking point. No loot = no fun. So sure, if there are no rewards for PvP, then yes, you'll have no reason for collusion. ...but then you'll also have no reason for anyone to PvP.

I wasn't talking in terms of bugs. I was talking in terms of gameplay. It's exactly how Dread described it; why buy an android when you can keep your iphone with the same basic functionality? And in all honesty, I've had plenty of issues with class quests/character skills/bugs that are pretty similar to what we started out with in WoW. That's why I don't even care to compare the issues this game has with exploits/hacking/perma-stuck bugs. When you talk ingenuity in game design though, SWTOR has nothing to offer. And yes, I do expect that after 7 years of watching THE BEST MMO created, in terms of popularity/subscription rates, and watching its era come to an end that game designers might take some of the basic concepts that define the current market and expand upon them. Sure, this game has a wonderful single player story, but if I wanted single player content, I'd go play a single player game. In terms of an MMO though, this is just a buggy version of oldschool WoW with a Star Wars character skin covering it. And yes, I was and still am expecting much more from BioWare. I despise WoW in it's current, contentless form, and I was really hoping to have a new game to enjoy again. I was under the impression that the Star Wars name was not willing to become tainted by something so highly revered by it's fanbase as a video game, but I feel that I was mistaken by that...

I don't think you get valor there, no... If you did, it'd be a ball. Or hell, if there were any decent rewards at all, it'd be fantastic. Maybe make it count towards the pvp daily even? You'd get a lot of people who'd rather show up there to crank out a daily in a fun/small arena as opposed to the cluster**** we call ilum.

You know why? Because even after 7 years between launches, SWTOR is either on par with WoW at launch, or worse. That just doesn't make sense, and it leads people to wonder where the largest budget for any MMO has gone. What's better in SWTOR currently, gameplay wise, that wasn't in WoW circa 2005? Maybe I'm just jaded, but I honestly can't think of anything, can you?

Who the **** cares about Hoth? Take over Corellia and then we'll talk. Speaking of which, why the **** isn't Corellia more occupied and/or have more reasons to be full? Isn't that like, one of the core worlds to be fighting over?

Remember when WoW had open world PvP? It was right from the start... And it worked, too. In fact, Upper Black Rock was one of THE most fun areas specifically because players HAD to go there. Why do people go to Ilum? Because the devs forced pvpers into one specific area that no one wants to be anyways. This game has FPs/ops that require nothing more than getting back to your safest zone, the fleet. Hell, Voss doesn't even have any good pvp interactions. Put a serious flash point in a pvp contested area. People will have so much more fun with the illegitimate so called pvp aspect of this game. The lacking of warzones is understandable, but they could have gotten around this issue by allowing for some legitimate forms of world PvP. People would have been much more satisfied from the onset, and it wouldn't have been hard to do, in my opinion.

It's kinda like you bit into it and realized it was rotten, and now you gotta choke down the rest of it.

-2 internets. Fail, newb.

Hi, my name is kmana and I like to exaggerate a lot on PvP forums. I'm all for mocking noobs who need to L2P their class, but FB lasts for 8 seconds (standard) and ends on damage, our 2 roots last for 2-5 and end on damage (one of which requires cover), and orbital strike *********** blows against anyone who actually knows what they're doing. But you're right. We do a ******** of damage. Aside from that, keep your awkwardly large trolly numbers off of my forums.

Looks like someone got home from the bar, pvp'd, and had something to say... Dewd. L2p.

*starts writing outline for 10 page paper rant I'm about to unleash*

Nerf Jebi for having 17k hp.

In fact, if mods used forum warnings, restrictions, and post editing more efficiently, they wouldn't have to close threads. They could actually promote serious discussion while cutting out the information they see damaging to the atmosphere or the game. But that would require effort. We all know how that goes round here...

Aren't you glad you nerfed ops? They used to kill sorcerers...

Autorun: Set it, and forget it!

I feel exactly the same way. All I'm trying to do is make sure you recognize the other posibilities before pullin the trigger on a new bug of sorts... =P Cause I mean, lord knows I don't wanna go in there and try to figure this thing out. lol. You never know though, and I doubt BioWare even has the capabilities to tell us whether or not that's the case, anyways.

I've also had /who come up with incorrect lists as well. I've had guildies in the fleet and when I /who to look for them, I see them missing. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, you may very well be on to something, but by what you've said so far I can see legitimate explanations as to why this might be occuring. In regards to you being in queue while an unfilled warzone is going on, may I ask how heavily populated your server is? You might very well be 6 back in a queue list while people are being cycled through, not ever accepting the entry to a WZ pop. Each time someone is accepted into a warzone, they have over a minute to actually join that ops group. It could be a slight time discrepancy of solo queues being popped for others, only for them to let it time out. However, the new fix they did to enforce the 8v12 exploits that were going on may have put a kink in the queueing system as well. In my eyes, both are very reasonable possiblities.

ya, sometimes he's actually in the group, he just doesn't show up on the ops frame. I've had times where I'm not even listed. You may very well have 8 players, though.

Oh man, that would be a huge dick move, you're right... Didn't even think of that, but I can only assume that ranked WZs are in the 50 bracket?

^^ sucker.

Well, my gamecard runs out next week... I doubt I'll resub with the FPS loss that comes after every patch... It's ridiculous. Oh, that and PvP has gotten pretty stale in general already. They cannot dig this game out of the hole it's in. It's just not possible, and not worth my time or money.

So, actually, you've just insulted yourself, Mr. Little Brain... If you ACTUALLY look at the numbers, you see that the OP is pretty correct in his statement. It is more reasonable in a large amount of situations to farm your opponents for valor until the timelimit runs out, for not only the winning team, but the losing team as well. I'm going to give you a couple theoretical examples to show you when and where this is or isn't the case. First, you have the perfect server. Queue times are basically zero, PvP is unaffected by exploits, and matches are always a full 8v8. Even if you're running premades, which affects how long it takes for you to form a group, wait for everybody to be ready, hop in vent ect., you've got a pretty quick finish to start of next warzone time period, and in this case, it is more reasonable for you to win as early as possible, take your 800 valor in 5 minutes, and move on to the next game. Also, for BMs, all you care about is the win, generally, so this would also be your optimal outcome. 5 minutes per game at roughly 800 valor (which is the amount of valor you recieve for winning those quick games) gives you a valor per hour rate of ~10k per hour. Now if you were to take those games and farm for another 10 minutes, you would generally gain at least 1500 valor per game, including SOME (i'd say about 5, in this situation) of the medals you would recieve. So, with instant queues, you have 4 games per hour, at 1500 per game, which equates to 6k valor per hour. In this case, the perfect case, farming is not optimal. Also note that since you're winning 100%, your opponents must be losing 100%, and are gaining what, 500 per loss? 500x12 games per hour = 6k per hour for insta losses, and 1000x4 = 4k per hour for farmed losses. So, let's go to a less perfect server: Say your queues take 5 minutes. Or more likely, say you're republic, and your queues inherently take 5 minutes... (sorry pubs, but it's true...) At this point, you're taking 5 minutes to get into a game, 5 minutes to complete a game, and 800 valor recieved. This takes longer for your BMs to get their wins, but those leveling their ranks get a valor rate of 800 every 10 minutes, or around 5k valor per hour. I'm rounding up on these numbers, btw... In the situation where you farm these games out however, you're finishing 3 games per hour, with 1500 valor per game, giving you 4.5k valor per hour. So, on a server with 5 minute queue times, winning every game by farming will only give you 500 less valor PER HOUR (this is key), than winning games 5-0. This is assuming you win every game. On the other hand, if you're on the losing side of this thought experiment, when you get quick winned for your 500 valor, you get 500x6 = 3k valor per hour, and when getting farmed, you get 1000x3 = 3k valor per hour. So, AS THE LOSING TEAM, 100% OF THE TIME, you get an equal amount of valor on a nonperfect, 5 minute queue time server. That's only 1.5k less than if you win by farming and 2k less per hour than if you win quickly. If you're still paying attention, you're either suprised by how oddly these numbers are beginning to work out for the do farm argument, or you've already heard this argument, as these are both perfect situations for you winning 100% of your games. So let's say you win 50% of your games on a perfect server. Averaging the valor between valor-win/hour and valor-loss/hour gives you an 8k/hour rate for insta wins, and a 5k/hour rate for insta losses. On a 5 minute queue server, winning 50% of your games, you get an 8k/hour rate for quick wins, and a 7.5k/hour rate for farmed wins. We're getting awkwardly close to that point where farming becomes optimal. At 15 minute queue times, you gain: -2.4k/hour with insta wins (100% win rate) -3k/hour with farmed wins (100% win rate) -1.5k/hour with insta losses (100% rate) -2k/hour for farmed losses (100% rate) And, -1.8k/hour with insta wins/losses (50% win rate) -2.5k/hour with farmed wins/losses (50% win rate) On a server where it takes you 15 minutes to join a Warzone, which is definitely not unheard of, it is more valuable to farm your opponents, and EVEN TO BE FARMED, when it comes to earning valor. Needless to say, battlemasters hate these servers. So what you see here is that downtime kills your valor per hour rate, but you gain more in those situations by farming your opponent. Now, considering that some people don't insta-queue all day long, you find that for THE GENERAL MASSES, valor farming is by far the best way to get valor in huttball. Also, you generally get a lot more medals for farming, which can up the rate considerably (10 medals/game at 50 valor + 2 games per hour = 1k more valor per hour on the worst servers, and +2k valor on the best servers, whereas quick wins do not get as many medals). So, Mr. Little Brain... It seems you didn't do your homework. The system in place encourages farming for the general masses. It needs to be fixed. tl;dr: Maths + SWTOR = Valor Farming.