Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Shampoo]

The later of the quoted posts in the above comment seems to refer to a sort of indentured servant, not relating to the contemporary definition we attach to slavery.

 

Property, equipment but beyond that a utensil that is less than human. Not just farm equipment or sub-humans but beasts which must be controlled.

 

This definition may stray from traditional definitions of slavery, but contemporary scholarship will, more often than not, present the aforementioned definition. This is because the most recent and brutal slavery trade must be taken very, very seriously.

 

"Bioland" seems to largely attempt to make comments about contemporary issues, such is the nature of the fantasy and science-fiction genres. Hence my disgust with how little plot development and societal commentary is presented to the player in the introductory Vette scenes.

 

KotoR and Mass Effect 1/2, Jade Empire and BG do it right. They take the player through the consequences of abusing an important support character. I don't understand the decision to take this negligent and unintelligent step backwards.

 

Perhaps new writers or more extensive QA would help these issues--but for now it remains a festering boil on the flesh of what is a remarkable entertainment product.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[AlyxDinas]

Hence my disgust with how little plot development and societal commentary is presented to the player in the introductory Vette scenes.

 

The straightforward nature of its depiction and the inherent sense of moral perversion it informs the player about the Sith Empire suggests otherwise. After all, it spurred you to engage in your faux-moral sophistry.

[jamesdn]

LOL dude your playing a sith what did you expect?

[Shampoo]

I'd like an example of a commentative narrative, other than archaic and utterly offensive texts from the hay-day of glamorized slavery, where a slave is both a friend and future love prospect who remains flirtatious and revelatory about his or her past with the protagonist without any authorly suggestion of the dreadful nature of the whole ordeal.

 

Why would a text like that not make its way into the literary or film circuit? Because the intelligence bar is set ever so slightly higher than games--and I'm tired of the idiocy that enables critics of our industry to dismiss actual intelligent product as children's toys or games for lonely hetero males.

 

The idea that abuse victims often return to their abusers is very much a reality, yet The Old Republic lacks any sort of story ark to demonstrate to the player what specifically Vette has suffered through.

 

Lit crit on ToR is not something I'm interested in beyond the issues at hand, but I think we can both agree that Bioware neglected to add intelligence here. There's very little to analyze without going into negative industry standards themselves and leaving the text entirely.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[gaskull]

The OP's entire premise is false.

 

I have pretty much bathed in violent media since I was a very young child. Violent films, tv, music, games. I'd seen every Friday the 13th by the time I was like 9.

 

I am a productive member of society with no criminal record who pays my taxes, goes to work and is generally happy.

 

Well, you know, as happy as can be in this **** hole of a planet, but the planet being a ball of **** has little to do with my upbringing.

 

If I turned out fine, the violence isn't the problem.

 

True that

[AlyxDinas]

Lit crit on ToR is not something I'm interested in beyond the issues at hand, but I think we can both agree that Bioware neglected to add intelligence here.

 

No less than you've seen fit to lord your bachelor's understanding of narrative, morals, or a host of topics over people in this thread. Discerning the point of your posts requires an interminable among of sifting through your hubris. And even then the point seems little more than self aggrandizement.

 

Stop presuming less of people's intelligence. The moment you do, all of your supposed concerns completely fall away.

Edited February 2, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[ntyzor]

I tend to think that OP must be a serial murdered who wants to see something different than IRL while playing video games. Like pigeons, rainbows, romantic stories, no fights or argues.

 

I can only say one thing: let me BURN , **** and PILLAGE as much as i want in the video game i am playing since as a grown mature person that I am I would never do it IRL.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ntyzor

[Argagarg]

I think the op has a good point; this represents a significant "lost opportunity" for Bioware. You are allowed to do terrible things, yes, but where are the consequences? In fact, one of my main beefs with the Class Stories is there are very few consequences to the player's decisions. I currently have a 50 BH (light side), a 46 JK (Dark Side), and a 47 IA (mix, mostly light), and I've been comparing notes with guildmates on where our respective class stories leave us. It seems to me that, other than a few in-game mails from NPC's, our widely divergent moral outlooks and decision making led to the exact same circumstances. This is where TOR differs from ME 1/2 and other Bioware classics. In ME, you are allowed to make these widely divergent decisions, but there are real consequences for those actions. Good storytelling explores both the act and the result, and in a lot of ways TOR's class stories are indifferent to your character's decisions. Much of this is necessitated by it being a MMO; mechanistic concerns trump story every time, even in TOR.

 

That being said, some class stories were written better than others. The IA story was an excellent one, with believable light/dark options at most stages. It really tried to explore the story of a "regular guy" dealing with an Empire run by Sith.

 

I guess I just wish there were more consequences...I wish my Jedi could get expelled from the order, I wish potential companion death/loss was there to remind us in some small way that those decisions matter.

[Maverickfp]

Ummm, you're very dumb. Why did the Empire create the deathstar? To kill the Republic...oh wait, that's too horrific for you... Quit playing the game. My wife plays this and its not bad at all. You wanna see bad...go read about Hitler or stuff IRL. Its WAAAAAY worse than this.

[Rhapsodic]

So, I have to ask....Did you write to George Lucas and demand to know WHY he set Leia wearing next to nothing literally chained to the oppressive gangster? Or did you watch googly eyed, hoping beyond hope that SOMEhow, through some miraculous movie magic, that her top would fall off?

 

Because quite honestly, I don't buy it. You bought the game. You obviously have some knowledge of Star Wars and it's history....Are you seriously going to sit there with an "Oh My" expression and tell us you didn't expect this?

 

I'm GLAD I have the option to torture, to enslave, to manipulate and use my companions....ITS variety...it's a change from the same old lackluster crap we've all been playing for years. The beauty of having options is that you have a CHOICE. No one MADE you shock Vette. No one forced you to go dark side...BioWare didn't stand behind you with a gun to your head and say " Choose the Dark Points or die."

 

If children are your problem, keep your own from playing it. Let the other parents decide what's best for their own kids. Just don't sit there and condemn the very game I am SURE you continue to pay to play.

 

And the same for your girlfriend. If she is so "sickened" by it, don't show it to her. I happen to be a woman and I am LOVING every dark moment of this game. I don't feel the LEAST bit oppressed, depressed, wronged, maligned, degraded or in any other way bothered by what BioWare has done. Righteousness does not suit----it's a GAME. if you don't like it, don't play it. it can not possibly be any simpler than that.

[RobCivicCRX]

Dude its a sith warrior story if there was not mindless violence, pain and destruction it just wouldnt work.

 

IMO its a bit tame for T for teen rating whatever, needs moar sex, mindless violence and perhaps some ewok slaughtering.

[Rhapsodic]

Dude its a sith warrior story if there was not mindless violence, pain and destruction it just wouldnt work.

 

IMO its a bit tame for T for teen rating whatever, needs moar sex, mindless violence and perhaps some ewok slaughtering.

 

THIS is what I'm talking about!! BioWare....give me MORE SEX WITH MY COMPANIONS! I wanna see what goes on behind the black-out screen....Give me MORE opportunity to seduce Andro....gimmeh gimmeh gimmeh!! Im actually disappointed that the whole companion story ENDS once you're "married". A true mirror to RL, sadly. How about every few days, you gimme a pop up that says " Andro would like some nookie back on your mega awesome ship"? I could definitely go for more interaction with the comps, with or without a shock collar.

[Shampoo]

You argue against nobody with utterly meaningless one sentence replies.

 

I'm not advocating censorship, I'm not claiming the consumption of the product will ruin the minds of children. I even hold the firm belief that parental guidance, good mental health and education are the only true ways of helping a growing mind separate fantasy from reality.

 

I'm not whistle blowing here. I'm not advocating the removal of the material itself. I hope it stays, if anything as a reminder of the utter train wreck of irony present given the selling point of ToR is its supposed revolutionary and meaningful story driven experience.

 

My statements reflect disappointment with how offensively unaware Bioware appears in sections like the introduction to Vette.

 

This failure to demonstrate just how retrogressive and eerily objectionable The Old Republic can be at times

 

This negligence is indicative of a blissfully ignorant industry and perhaps more pressingly, a cancerous trend present in the institutions who synthesize and put the product on the store shelves.

 

For those who are consistently returning to the topic of their own personal resilience in concern to media--or that parents should take a stance, I agree with you completely and you continue to argue with empty space.

 

I am merely suggesting that The Old Republic be held to the standards of progressiveness present in previous Bioware titles.

 

Let me make one thing absolutely clear: my objections here are bad writing and unethical marketing. If you want elaboration, comb my post or read my first page article that started this discussion.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[Punkre]

Actually I agree to a minor point in that it feels like actions do not have consequences, but I am speaking for dark as well as light actions.

 

It feels like regardless of your actions the same outcome will come from any given action, even on a short term issue it never felt like disobeying direct orders (be it light or dark options) gave any real negatives to my character, at the least I should be docked my pay if I choose to not do the mission to original specs.

 

That said, I do feel like the Sith empire feels like a real dictatorship, based heavily on a class system that boarders on being a caste system (slaves give birth to slaves, its near impossible to get out of being a Sith if your born force sensitive.) and over all the way characters will treat you very differently if your a Bounty Hunter compared to a Sith Warrior, or certain Sith treat you just based on either being born a slave (SI) is really well done.

 

Sure some of the storylines feel trite, or just lacking polish, but the Empire as being discussed here feels genuine.

 

Your right OP it isn't the Horde, the Horde were basically the actual good guys of WoW, but then again WoW didn't really have politics. I mean both sides were dictators that either used a monarchy or a tribal based system to determine leadership.

But WoW's story was pretty pathetic for the longest time, and still is completely lacking.

 

The main character in WoW is Thrall, not you, you just follow him around bringing buddies to kill things he hates. Swtor is a 1000x the game WoW is if were just talking about story, and your carebear attitude towards the Sith Empire is completely forgetting that our world has areas that exist EXACTLY like the Sith Empire.

 

TL:DR

Sith Empire = insert any dictator regime that committed genocide. (hint their is a lot of them.)

Yes, we should make the Sith much less evil just because its in a scifi setting of a video game. Teens can and should be able to handle all aspects of Swtor, or their parents are bad at teaching them what the world is really like.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Punkre

[Dimeru]

tl;dr

 

I'm a concerned, conservative parent who is stuck in my moral bubble. Since I cannot asses the fact that, A: It's a game set in a different galaxy or B: It's an entirely different culture, I am here now on the forums to throw media threats.

___________________________________________

 

 

Dude, understand the Empire is a completely different culture, no, different galaxy than us. BioWare shows this well - we (This is assuming you're an American.) abolished slavery for being inhumane, they allow it because, well, it gets done what needs to be done. They didn't have any sort of Civil Rights Movement or anybody embodying MLK as far as I know.

 

Do I agree with the Empire? No, of course not, but I act in the role of the Sith Warrior - the enforcer of the Empire, because I chose the red blade in character select. I'm not so narrow minded as to think I can come onto a game, again, a different culture and expect them to act the same as the Republic simply because "it's against my morals to do anything else".

 

 

Play Republic. They're a much more easygoing culture, probably fitting for you and your 13 year old son.

 

Good luck to you, and hopefully this shed some light.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dimeru

[Shampoo]

thing

 

I find that it's good to edit out the historical references to Germany between the years of 1938 to 1950, they will earn you an infraction and a possible forum ban, I know this from first hand experience. Sorry for the shorthanded reply but needed to warn ya quick.

 

A certain Family Guy tour bus sequence comes to mind, haha. Not allowed to discuss the historical fascism which writers based the Empire on.

 

No discussing the history which is responsible for inspiring The Old Republic's Empire regardless of a player base whom largely bat for Big Brother and his goonies.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[Dionlight]

It would be nice to see the SW revamped to make the Empire more grim.

 

Watching a Sith stab his lightsaber into someones skull and feeling the essence of someone leaving. The majority of Sith surrounded in darkness with nothing to show their mortality than a decrepit face with no pupils. To utter near demonic words to inspire his comrades. With the Light-Sided Sith being so few, wear not-as-aggressive armor among other examples.

 

BUT

 

The game is fine as it is. Most of these "bad things" are of your choosing. If you don't like a particular choice you can opt out for a better one. Don't know why it's so serious. =/

[Kiyosa]

From the standpoint of a female player on the Empire's side, I have to admit that there are moments when I twitch in regards to certain happenings throughout the story progression. I think that such a reaction is only natural, although I don't often get to see or experience any sexual violence, neither inflicted on my character nor being inflicted on others (I believe that's something male characters get to experience more), since it is after all the Dark Side we're talking about here. Slavery, genocide and the rest of what the OP describes go by just like in a movie. They stir something inside without them really affecting me.

 

I find it in no way exaggerated or over the top, even more so if one considers the atrocities that actually occured in the real world in times of war. Humanity's real history involves more than enough examples of such, without even having an obviously "evil" side in most cases. So how or why does this shock so much when it happens in a game and when one of the sides bases almost its entire structure on principals such as 'survival of the fittest', 'eat or be eaten' and similar?

 

Keep in mind that there's always the other side for the weak hearted. Unless of course the OP is referring to "when you dance with the devil, the devil won't change; he's changing you", meaning that someone might come out as a much more evil person after playing an imperial character....which I also find far stretched.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kiyosa

[Rhapsodic]

There really isn't much to say here, is there? You have your opinion. We all have ours. You don't "agree" with some of what BioWare has done. Great. Again, that is your right. And you have decided to share your opinion here. Awesome. I think the problem most people have with it is the feeling they get that you are trying to CRAM your opinion down their throats. Maybe it's your arrogance or the fact that you somehow seem to be leaking condescension all over the place. You're obviously extremely intelligent. Yay for you.

 

Just don't forget that there are hundreds of thousands of players in this world and most of us happen to really enjoy what BioWare has ALLOWED us to share in. Yes...ALLOWED. We pay for the privilege of playing in THEIR WORLD. THEY created it...THEY nursed it to life...THEY have given it over for us to share in and I am grateful for it. We have NO right to tell them what it is they can, can't, should, would, or could do with it. This game is not OURS...this world is NOT OURS. We simply play in it.

 

THANK YOU BioWare for giving me the CHOICE to play.

[FuzzNasty]

Compared to the horrors of real life the "evil" of the Imperials is pretty cartoonish and super-villainy.

 

This game deserves it's rating, it meets all the expectations of a Teen rating.

 

I don't see how anyone can call this game shocking or graphic when a cursory google search reveals volumes and volumes of books detailing modern instances of violence and brutality that even the driest retelling of makes SWTOR look like Harry Potter.

 

If you think people are desensitized by video game violence have them read up on some modern-day human trafficking. I don't know why some people think a video game about Sith and Jedi could make someone not realize true horrors when they see it.

 

If we're desensitized it's not because of our entertainment. Our entertainment has nothing to do with it. It's because the news we choose to receive is saccharine and centered upon a very tiny amount of world events.

 

Don't blame the games, people.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Parali

[TrueNovaZero]

I suppose the danger comes in giving you exactly what you want, OP. I do agree... but at the same, my mind is in the hypothetical bubble of what it would be like for an empire character to have an excellently written story -- where being so undeniably dark with such themes (slavery, torture, sexual violence, etc)... it would also bring a level of "realism" to it. But because it's played -- and distributed to quite a huge audience it also runs the risk of desensitizing people as such even further.

 

Now before we tear into myself and what I've said, understand that the average person isn't remotely aware that they're being influenced. Furthermore, by slapping a "teen" rating, you're throwing that content to a molding mind eager to be influenced. Oh and make no mistake; I hate censorship with a burning vengeance.

 

I'm currently enjoying my play through so far with the republic Trooper; it's well written (if I may say so) and it presents interesting dilemmas. You can be unabashedly evil, should you choose (yay for those people), but even when you try to be good, you're tortured because the decisions you make, regardless of intent, comes with hard consequences. That's good writing.

[Rhapsodic]

After playing with Vette I bought my wife a shock collar....

 

/high five

[MasterSenci]

I only could read through the first page before I decided I'd read enough. I have not played a Sith or Imperial character as of yet, but I know enough of the history to know that the Empire whenever it is present is not made up of Jawas and Ewoks. It has always been more or less a racist organization (hence the enslavement of Wookies and other species depending on which Empire we want to bring up), so I really don't see why that would be of a great shock to any player that paid attention. And yes, if a Sith is in charge, there is usually mass genocide and a one way government that will kill anything that stands against it. That hasn't changed from any of the cannon. Slavery has always been a part of the game/history whether or not someone chooses to acknowledge it or not; simple point is someone got beat down and instead of killing them they gave them a chance at some life. And a sexual theme whether violent or not has been in Star Wars from the begining (or did I miss the skimpy outfits they put people in in the movies?). Really if you don't want to play a bad guy don't play on the clearly bad side or choose to make decisions that are gonna get you Light side points. As far as the ESRB rating, this isn't the 80's or 90's anymore, kids are exposed to this stuff through the news or other shows more then you are counting I think, so a mature rating would be a bit of a stretch. Then again I suppose we can all curl up and sing yub-nub til ya get what ya want with plushy Sith that shoot Force Lightning that tickles. Personally, can't wait to play a Sith once I get my Jedi up to 50...evil choices are the easy route to take and all.

[sparklecat]

Personally, in relation to the claims of sexism, I've gotta say I found the way my Warrior could treat Quinn and how he subsequently responded to be a whole lot worse than how she could treat Vette. I have to take the collar off to make any progress with Vette's story, she would say something negative if I was being cruel to her, etc., but Quinn? I ended up married to the guy I frequently sexually harassed when he clearly was uncomfortable with it, threw into a wall and force choked, constantly held one mistake over his head and asserted my dominance and superiority at every turn, all to which he replied something along the lines of "yes, my Lord, you absolutely have the right to do whatever you like with me, I'll do my best to please you above all else." Pretty classic abusive relationship there; I don't know if it's as bad with Vette, not having gotten as far with my male Warrior yet, but her personality at least doesn't seem as likely to put up with as much, thus far.

 

 

And, y'know, I'm ok with this. Is it absolutely a terrible way to treat any actual person, male or female? Yes, no question. But I'm playing a character here; nobody's forcing me to make her act like this, nobody real is being hurt, and at the end of the day, the message I'm going to take out of this isn't "hey, being an abusive jerk and coercing sex out of people is actually pretty fun, I'm gonna try that on my next girlfriend." It's more like "that was an interesting mindset to explore, a fun character to play, but wow, she really was kinda unbalanced." Probably because, y'know, she was a Sith. And I can't imagine a male Warrior + Vette is going to lead to any significantly different conclusions for players.

[Shampoo]

Choice doesn't eliminate what myself and many others see as the problem here. Rather it's the disappointment of the direction the story takes and the inconsequential nature of said choices.

 

What good is a choice if Vette is, for the most part, OK being a continuously abused slave?

 

Again, the problem resides in tasteless and thoughtless writing. Writing that to the educated public at large will appear chauvinistic and backwards.

 

Please acknowledge that I fully understand players have the CHOICE to be kind to Vette, this isn't my concern, rather it was an expectation.

 

Quite to the contrary of what many of you post, I enjoy that Bioware allows us these sorts of decisions and don't want any content removed, censored , no matter how difficult or controversial they become.

 

What I do want: writing which lives up to the Bioware name. I do want fair consumer warning regardless of the inevitable questionable parenting or resilience of today's young people.

 

Teen games cannot be carded for, so kids are free to play a sadistic slave owner to a flirtatious and underdeveloped character. To have relations with a woman recently widowed by your allies in front of her eyes.

 

Oh and the lovely double standard of the game featuring a ludicrous and reactionary swear filter removing words like "Buddha" and "fart" (a filter which is on my default), but glamourizing torture, murder and slavery and suggested sexual abuse of helpless sympathetic prisoners.

 

I'm all but certain several words which by default become censored in chat are spoken audibly by characters on the screen. It would be funny if this was a product I placed no value in--as it stands it's just embarrassing.

 

That disgusting jailer alone with his words of "encouragement" should be enough for many of you to understand.

 

My beef is with a downright pathetic presentation of the story revolving the decisions proposed in scenes such as those with Vette. They seem quite unlike Bioware. A sizable and offensive step back for us fans.

 

Why are scenes such as Vette's introduction written in a manner which neglects to actively and punctually demonstrate the sensitivities contained in a topic so ardous and woeful?

 

Why no adequate followup to something so heavy?

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo