Technical community discussion : Nerfing Tracer Missle

[Cheffn]

This gentleman here disagrees with you.

 

 

Lol. All I see is a BH not getting attacked. Letting any class go unchecked will **** your face. So use some skill and attack the BH. Problem solved.

 

This vid is before the lvl 50 Bracket patch anyway so it's worthless.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Cheffn

[zerobounds]

Server: Helm of Graush

Trooper Level: 42 Vanguard and 33 Commando (played BH extensively in beta)

PvP Level: 36

 

I think the people who bring up the point of "but Tracer Missiles aren't doing the damage, Unload, etc. are" are missing the point about the complaints.

 

1. Tracer Missile is the only spammable attack ANY spec of BH/Trooper has, regardless of AC. The fact that it only costs 25 heat and has a 1.5 second cast time, which allows about 20 heat to be refunded, is a problem IMO. Though it doesn't hit as hard as the other abilities, it is very very good sustained DPS for a marginal resource requirement.

 

Compare that to all the other "spammable" attacks and your character will run out of Cells/gain too much Heat in about 6-7 attacks, and it will do less damage.

 

2. The problem isn't that you get the best damage from spamming Tracer Missiles, but it is a problem that spamming Tracer Missiles is a pretty viable tactic. (Caveat: Spamming is only viable if you are not being focused on. If you are free casting it is extremely viable).

 

Exactly. Well explained.

[Armaso]

Everyone knows tracers need to be dialed back. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't want to lose an advantage.

 

There should never be a single skill that you can spam and win with.

 

Anyone can win by spamming their basic attack if you stand there and let them do it.

[Nechronix]

Anyone can win by spamming their basic attack if you stand there and let them do it.

 

This ^

 

/thread

[Buddhalux]

Server: Ajunta Pall

Merc: Matala

 

 

Read a few of the nerf threads now. A few things that non-mercs don't get about TM.

 

1. TM is an Primer attack (needed to unlock finisher attacks).

2. We have to use TM 3-5 times to maximize our DPS and use our finishers i.e. Unload, Rail Shot.

3. Heat Seeker Missles is kind of a hybred finisher. That and explosive dart can be used on the move since they're instants. However, for HSM to shine it needs the full debuff effect from TM.

4. Unload finisher requires TM debuffs for it's damage to be remotely worth while.

5. Heat - We gain heat at an astounding rate when working our rotations. Now this means that we have to burn vent heat, use the pos default attack, or use TM. Since TM casting time is 1.4-1.5 seconds then we're doing nothing but cooling down. Then having it fully spec'd we reduce the costs of heat so that just a little tick of coolness lets us fire off another TM on you. Sometimes it's the only attack we can use besides the pew pew default one.

 

 

I'd be fine if they upped the debuff rate on TM and put it on a short CD. They would have to reduce the Unload timer though to keep our DPS up since Power shot is a massive heat generating attack.

However, keep in mind that I would no longer be a turret so you running away from me won't be a viable option anymore. Would the crying start over or would they drown in their tears is all that remains to be seen.

[Phaentom]

I think its generally agreed that in PvP it's very easy to kill the Merc due to the reasons you've posted. I'm curious how you like it the way it is after those comments and how your rotation looks.

 

Server: Rakata Mind Prsion

Mercenary Level: 50

PvP Level: 45

 

Just thought Id answer your question with my opinion the AC and Arsenal.

 

Im a champ/centurion geared 45 valor Merc, with a lvl 50 operative also that I have stopped playing because I genuinely enjoy my Merc more, despite my operative having a million times more utility than my merc.

 

I used to find myself cursing other classes constantly in pvp because of how literally every class but sniper has more utility than mercs until I came to the realization that mercs utilty comes in 3 flavors:

 

-Ill start with the simplest, the Healing spec is actually quite good, gives decent utility in addition to the heals with Death from above and fusion missile, still outperformed by sorc/sage but they fill a role.

 

-Arsenal specced AoE chaos, my secondary and almost just as important role as a merc is to cause as much chaos as I can, Jet Boost (our AOE knockback with slow) which when specced w/ gear bonus has a 15 second cd and rocket punch (our single target knockback) are always off cooldown for me, regardless of wz. Same with Fusion Missile and Death from above.

 

-Arsenal specced nukes, my primary role - simply target high priority targets (ball carriers, operatives, healers, snipers, other arsenal mercs) pretty much anyone that if not immediately engaged will cause you grief, i consider my job when im dpsing just to lay dmg down on everyone while being in a favorable position on the map, on ramps, bridges, behind pillars.

 

 

My opinion of the concern for tracer missile needing to be nerfed and why I think its fine:

Im not a battlemaster so I cant comment on how much my dmg will be with 600~ expertise but at 400~ its nothing outrageous, never crit more than 4.5k with HSM without boosts, or 3k with TM the lack of a true interrupt or significant defensive cooldowns make us pretty much useless in regards to this supposed "huge" advantage gained through being heavy armor users, I feel like tracer missile is more of an encumbrance to us than an advantage, I think unload when specced might be a bigger concern than people realize, it vents heat when it crits, allows heat to naturally vent as it is a channeled skill, it snares and does not good but great damage, this in addition to my opinion of the mercs utility (posted above) are why I think it is reasonable the way it is.

 

I wish we had more utility at the expense of dmg, but we fill a role now that no other class does and if we get the extra utility then we literally become sorcerers with heavy armor.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Phaentom

[Nukor]

Server: Firkrann crystal

Merc Level: 50

PvP Level: 43

 

Having done a fair amount of pvp on my BH, I can say with full certainty that if TM was nerfed, that we'd be a huge disadvantage. If we could run and cast it, sure I could understand why people complain, but as it stands now I have NEVER seen a single player get killed by the use of only TM.

 

The people complaining about it must only be paying attention to the animation of the missile exploding on them and when they die they figure it must have been tracer spam rather than our other abilities that are the bulk of our hitting power. If tracer was doing the damage that people think it does, we'd have all seen the nerf threads come out way sooner than now. What's happening is that noobs who've realized the other "nerf threads" are getting stale, so they're just shifting their focus to a different class/skill.

 

Seriously, in wzs my tracers are hitting for AT MOST 1k. This is due to me having crap gear, but even if I were fully geared I'd be very surprised to see tracer hit for more than a 2k average against another equally geared player. With that said, even if the skill was hitting for a 5k average, you still couldn't effectively spam it to kill someone because it's too easy to LOS or interrupt.

 

Maybe someone should start a thread saying that smurfs need a nerf because they're too blue, it'd be just as useful as the tracer nerf threads are.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nukor

[zerobounds]

Server: Firkrann crystal

Merc Level: 50

PvP Level: 43

 

Having done a fair amount of pvp on my BH, I can say with full certainty that if TM was nerfed, that we'd be a huge disadvantage. If we could run and cast it, sure I could understand why people complain, but as it stands now I have NEVER seen a single player get killed by the use of only TM.

 

The people complaining about it must only be paying attention to the animation of the missile exploding on them and when they die they figure it must have been tracer spam rather than our other abilities that are the bulk of our hitting power. If tracer was doing the damage that people think it does, we'd have all seen the nerf threads come out way sooner than now. What's happening is that noobs who've realized the other "nerf threads" are getting stale, so they're just shifting their focus to a different class/skill.

 

Seriously, in wzs my tracers are hitting for AT MOST 1k. This is due to me having crap gear, but even if I were fully geared I'd be very surprised to see tracer hit for more than a 2k average against another equally geared player. With that said, even if the skill was kitting for a 5k average, you still couldn't effectively spam it to kill someone because it's too easy to LOS or interrupt.

 

Maybe someone should start a thread saying that smurfs need a nerf because they're too blue, it'd be just as useful as the tracer nerf threads are.

 

As posted before, TM damage isn't really the concern. It's the fact that we have to throw them around so frequently to be effective and without using TM to the full the other skills and arsenal tree in general are not useful since Unload, HSM, etc.. are dependent on TM being used incessantly.

[Ssfbistimg]

Everyone knows tracers need to be dialed back. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't want to lose an advantage.

 

There should never be a single skill that you can spam and win with.

 

then why can sorcerers spam chain lightning and win. your argument doesn't hold water.

Trooper 48

Juyo Server

PVP Level 35

 

Stop being a bad. I'm guessing when you were a kid you lost in Mortal Kombat to the guy who only ever used sweep. Bioware made the class need to spam Grav Round so yes I will play the class the way it was intended. If you aren't smart enough to LoS or Interrupt me then you deserve to die. I stand still in one place and am very easily stun chain killed. L2P the game and stop whining that I play my class the way bioware wanted me to play it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Ssfbistimg

[ugig]

Name: Zenobi Fette

Server: Girraada the Hutt

BH lvl: 50 Spec: full arsenal

PvP lvl: 40

 

I would be interested to know a breakdown of other full dps spec's dmg, what are their abilities hitting for and what are the circumstances of those abilities, lets see some hard data proving that my 900-2600 seemingly random point hit from TM is that far off of other straight DPS specs.

 

These are the true numbers I see in PvP with 1400 aim 39% crit 81% surge and 350 expertise (this is with buffs)

 

So lets see some true numbers from force lightning, pebbles, and glow stick spam, and all those IA/Smugg abilities.

[Nukor]

As posted before, TM damage isn't really the concern. It's the fact that we have to throw them around so frequently to be effective and without using TM to the full the other skills and arsenal tree in general are not useful since Unload, HSM, etc.. are dependent on TM being used incessantly.

 

I agree completely with it being overused, personally I'd like to see it improved in a way that it doesn't have to be used as often. I just couldn't believe my eyes when reading that people think it's an OP skill because from my experience it's nothing more than a hinderance against anyone with any small level of pvp skill.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, that I'd like to see it apply a full 5 stacks from one hit, which helps the spamming problem, but changing only that part of it would make it an imbalanced skill imo, a cooldown would need to be added in that case and the LAST thing we need is another skill that requires a cooldown.

 

For now I'd like to see it just stay the way it is until a viable solution for the overuse is put in. I don't mind using it as much as we have to, but a lil more variety would be nice.

 

I would also like to add that I posted simply because I felt this thread needed a bump and I'm not a one-word forum postin' kinda guy So props are in order for the thread starter, it needs more attention.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nukor

[Keinhoran]

My suggestion is that Bioware needs to implement a combat log.

Most of the people then will see that grav round is not the big hitter.

The main reason that everyone is spamming grav round (and tracer missile) is the mechanic behind it.

You have to apply 5 stacks to increase the damage output of your HiB with charged barrel and your Demo round with gravity vortex. And with cell charger any crits with grav round generates 1 ammo therefore you can use it more times.

So distribute the bonuses. Charged barrel should be applied by charged bolts and gravity vortex by grav round. Each stack should give 2.5% bonus damage on demo round so you have to apply 10 stacks to get the 25% damage bonus.

Make charged bolts insta cast to make it more useful over grav round (due to higher mobility).

Increase the cast time of grav round by 0.2 secs.

In my opinion that will force people to use more skills in gunnery tree. Unfortunately i dont know how this is going to work on PvE mobs.

But still we need to point out if there will be a nurf on some abilites to get some more anti cc abilities.

[Keinhoran]

How about to discuss on a weekly basis with the class lead designer on what the community suggests.

[JediDuckling]

cant put it any more simler than this

 

 

mercinary/commando OP as hell they need a nerf end of story

[Keinhoran]

@ JediDuckling please answer the following:

 

What is your class ?

 

Do you know what OP means ?

 

Have you played a command/bounty hunter ?

 

If yes please suggest any viable solutions to what you say it is OP.

[crimsonraid]

Davik's Estate

rank 55 operative

 

The greatest problem the mercenary/commando faces is the ramp up time your class requires; the weight of which is placed on Tracer Missile/Grav Round. TM/GR have relatively low damage when compared to the rest of your abilities, but most players die before they can even see how hard your unload/rail shot actually hit for.

 

I'd say the most obvious of fixes would be to change your Heat Signatures to a self-buff (similar to acid blade's armor penetration) or change the way in which Heat Signatures are applied to the target. Instead TM/GR could be the only way to refresh or even transfer your heat sigs between targets (think Soul Swap or redirect from WoW).

 

Tracer itself is not the problem: your skill trees making your output rely on the ability are.

 

For the whiners:

As for people "spamming" tracer? Let them. These players are sacrificing their own output and risking disruption of their CORE ABILITY by doing so. You can completely shut this approach to pvp down right now.

[Keinhoran]

Davik's Estate

rank 55 operative

 

The greatest problem the mercenary/commando faces is the ramp up time your class requires; the weight of which is placed on Tracer Missile/Grav Round. TM/GR have relatively low damage when compared to the rest of your abilities, but most players die before they can even see how hard your unload/rail shot actually hit for.

 

I'd say the most obvious of fixes would be to change your Heat Signatures to a self-buff (similar to acid blade's armor penetration) or change the way in which Heat Signatures are applied to the target. Instead TM/GR could be the only way to refresh or even transfer your heat sigs between targets (think Soul Swap or redirect from WoW).

 

Tracer itself is not the problem: your skill trees making your output rely on the ability are.

 

For the whiners:

As for people "spamming" tracer? Let them. These players are sacrificing their own output and risking disruption of their CORE ABILITY by doing so. You can completely shut this approach to pvp down right now.

 

 

Well you are one of the few that propably read the description of the tree or spoke to a guy that playing/played the class. Do you think that common sense is available in all persons?

[Keinhoran]

cant put it any more simler than this

 

 

mercinary/commando OP as hell they need a nerf end of story

 

Loook what we have here.

It comes from a guy that I suppose he is a stealthed class according to his suggestions. Check:http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=262727

Edited February 2, 2012 by Keinhoran

[zerobounds]

Davik's Estate

rank 55 operative

 

The greatest problem the mercenary/commando faces is the ramp up time your class requires; the weight of which is placed on Tracer Missile/Grav Round. TM/GR have relatively low damage when compared to the rest of your abilities, but most players die before they can even see how hard your unload/rail shot actually hit for.

 

I'd say the most obvious of fixes would be to change your Heat Signatures to a self-buff (similar to acid blade's armor penetration) or change the way in which Heat Signatures are applied to the target. Instead TM/GR could be the only way to refresh or even transfer your heat sigs between targets (think Soul Swap or redirect from WoW).

 

Tracer itself is not the problem: your skill trees making your output rely on the ability are.

 

For the whiners:

As for people "spamming" tracer? Let them. These players are sacrificing their own output and risking disruption of their CORE ABILITY by doing so. You can completely shut this approach to pvp down right now.

 

Good post, well explained.

[Machazareel]

Server: Bondar Crystal

Class: 50 Mercenary

PvP Level: 43

 

Rather than typing out a long response I'm going to paste two of my earlier responses from different threads that together portray my position well enough, and add a final footnote at the end of my post.

 

The thing about Arsenal/Gunnery is that in the land of the bads, it is king. This is to say that if a terrible Arsenal/Gunnery spec is fighting a terrible player of any other class, the terrible Arsenal/Gunnery will probably win, because terrible players will let the terrible Merc/Commando spam Tracer/Grav even at melee range and just try to dps them.

 

Good players will interrupt with various tools, and a good player vs a good Arsenal/Gunnery player will often be sitting with the longer straw because there are few classes in which interrupts are nearly as devastating against, something good players use regularly. The Ars/Gun dude still has tricks up his sleeve, and can win by using them, but his build-up move will be pretty much negated, significantly lowering his damage output. Arsenal/Gunnery really isn't that great a PvP spec.

 

Now, I personally don't think we should balance the classes around terrible players, but I guess all you terrible players would rather we do that instead of getting good.

 

and

 

My point was that if you aren't doing anything about it, of course you die. It's the same deal no matter which ranged class turns its attention to you. Not every class has a ranged interrupt, no. A ranged interrupt isn't the only way to deal with it. Some classes have gap closers, some have the ability to stealth and there's often a LoS point nearby that can be utilized, causing the player to shift their focus to someone else, and for you to move in on them. If you're caught out in the open fighting someone else while a ranged decides to attack you, it's effectively a 2v1, and you should be in trouble in such a case. If you're caught out in the open alone, it's your fault for being positioned as such.

 

I don't have any issues dealing with Grav/Tracer on my mara, such spammers are generally free kills. We have a plethora of people of trying to claim it does massive damage, when it doesn't. They'll talk about it being hard to deal with when multiple Mercs are focusing them, which is a nobrainer.

 

People have now tried to position the argument to the one button being too simple, but the entire tree is built around its use, and the only suggestions they often come with to adjust the skill don't take the rest of the tree into account. People clamor that it shouldn't be that way, but they offer no solid suggestions as to how it should be changed, because they have no idea how to redesign an entire skill tree, which is essentially what needs to be done, because it certainly isn't tracer damage that's an issue, it's that every good thing about the tree rests on the somewhat repeated use of Tracer.

 

I don't even care much about the tree anymore, I don't use it, because it really isn't a very good PvP tree. I just have a hard time taking these threads seriously anymore because they are oft so full of misinformation, straight up lies and perpetuated by people who are terrible. And they are terrible. I am an average player in terms of PvP, not some elite pro. I find Tracer/Grav to be one of the least threatening things to face in a WZ because it's so easy to deal with, and has been on all my alts so far, perhaps because LoS and interrupting is so ingrained into my playstyle from my years playing WoW.

 

A bad tracer/grav spammer will generally win against a bad player of any other class, but when both players are actually decent, the grav/tracer is generally at a disadvantage due to being so reliant on an interruptable ability that roots them in place while they use it. I don't really think we should be balancing around terrible players, but hey, that's just my opinion.

 

While I can certainly understand that people have a certain level of disdain for the repeated use of Grav/Tracer, many fail to realise just how much of the talent tree is contigent on its repeated use. I am not entirely against the modification of the arsenal tree to allow for more liberal use of other abilities in addition to Tracer Missile, but it is something that needs to be done by taking a step back and examining the entirety of the tree. Hasty kneejerk reactions will likely only greatly disrupt the current synergies, and make an already sub-par PvP spec even worse.

 

My biggest issue is with the people who clearly either do not understand what exactly is hitting them, or flat out lie about the damage numbers, and then propose what they claim to be 'logical adjustments' without taking the rest of the tree into consideration at all. I am geared in full champ, which is only slightly below the strength of full BM. I use Biochem and Warzone adrenals liberally, and I, along with many other BHs of similar gear levels, know exactly how hard Tracer tends to hit with and without buffs. What we consider a rare, high crit, you claim to be suffering every single shot. Please gain some objectivity.

 

 

Edit: To any forum moderators. Since it is your desire that this thread is where you wish Tracer Missile discussion should be consolidated, I suggest making it a sticky. The topic pops up so frequently and this forum moves so quickly that it will only be a matter of days before its pushed down and replaced by new threads saying the exact same. Funnily enough, these threads are also typically started by the same individuals.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[Pattotwo]

Why would you even waste time making a thread like this

[Barrechor]

Adding a damage cap of 2k or making it unable to crit would do the trick with TM. The fact that a builder skill can realistically hit for 3k+ is ridiculous.

 

If you look around at other classes, you wont see any other 'Builders' do anywhere near the damage that TM does (Sundering strike certainly doesnt). It needs bringing in line with other similarly functioning skills.

[Machazareel]

Adding a damage cap of 2k or making it unable to crit would do the trick with TM. The fact that a builder skill can realistically hit for 3k+ is ridiculous.

 

If you look around at other classes, you wont see any other 'Builders' do anywhere near the damage that TM does (Sundering strike certainly doesnt). It needs bringing in line with other similarly functioning skills.

 

Sundering strike is also an instant, and thus is not a victim of interrupts, line of sight or being rooted in place. And if the skill list on Darthhater is correct, it also has 0 resource cost, and in fact generates a resource for your other attacks.

 

Edit: And this is a perfect example of what I mentioned in my previous posts. People don't step back and look at how things work on a larger scale. All you're looking at is that it does more damage than your armor reducing attack, while completely ignoring every other trait attached to both.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Machazareel

[Luckorforever]

Adding a damage cap of 2k or making it unable to crit would do the trick with TM. The fact that a builder skill can realistically hit for 3k+ is ridiculous.

 

 

3 k Hits with Tracer Missle? the Roflcopter has just started! I'm full t2 equiped and when i get 2,5 or 2,6 thats like once out of 100 Times and I'm like "OMG AWESOME"

Edited February 2, 2012 by Luckorforever

[Drachii]

Adding a damage cap

 

This'd probably cause some long-term issues - maybe not immediately, but some gear progression down the line and it's still hitting for the same thing? You'd probably be better off nerfing the damage coeffecient, if it were actually a problem. (Which I don't think it is, but my beef with the spec is that it all revolves around that one skill.)

 

or making it unable to crit

 

Would cripple the spec in pve at the very least, because of terminal velocity.

 

Just a couple of things I spotted in your post.

 

Sundering strike is also an instant, and thus is not a victim of interrupts, line of sight or being rooted in place.

 

I believe it's also 'free' in that rather than using UP a resource, it generates a resource. But I have to hold my hands up here and say that when it comes to SW/JKs, I know precious little other than 'the JK looks pretty cool in the end-of-tython gear.'

Edited February 2, 2012 by Drachii