A Spoiled Playerbase Spoiling a Great Game

[xARCHERx]

I wanted to give my own opinion over the recent forum outbursts of rage-quits, fps complaints, and dirty patches, but first I'll give a little information about myself.

 

I have come to SWTOR with a large experience with other MMOs including WoW (7 years), Everquest 2(4 years), and SWG (9 years [since beta]) - I have seen patches, bugs, fps problems, class exploits, quest bugs, & many other threads like those seen here on these forums about such topics.

 

Now - My Case:

 

I have thoroughly enjoyed SWTOR since releases and hope to continue to enjoy it for many years to come, but I have come to worry that a percentage of spoiled players are going to spoil this game as well as WoW and SWG had spoiled in the later years. Before I continue I'd like to give the definition of the type of spoiled I'm talking about:

 

"A spoiled child (also called a spoiled brat) is a child that exhibits behavioral problems from overindulgence by his or her parents. Spoiled children may be described as overindulged, grandiose, narcissistic or egocentric-regressed."

 

My friends, SWTOR has been out for only two months and has successfully pulled off one of the smoothest launches in all of MMO history - as well as creating thrilling stories as well as a overall good game. I do believe that there are problems in SWTOR and there are many things, I, myself are not happy about- Believe me.

 

FPS, Loading, Memory Leaks, and general problems being some of many things I find unworthy of the great game that SWTOR can be. Am I going to throw a temper-tantrum and cry to mommy about these issues? No. Am I going to flame the forums and threaten to cancel my subscription? No.

 

What some spoiled players seem to forget is that every MMO in history has started in this same way.

 

All of these complaints can not be addressed at once - they have to be systematically solved just like patients are prone to triage in a hospital. People - Bioware is a buisness, with deadlines, managers, and corporate heads; just like how Governments are full of different bodies of power. Bills take time to pass as well as patches take time to be made!

 

Frankly I'd rather them worry about getting guildships, banks, and a custom UI before dealing with these time consuming things like memory leaks which would mean large amounts of programming and overhaul.

 

Do I think this game was released 6 months too early? Yes - am I glad its out? Hell Yes.

 

WoW's peak didn't come until 3-4 years after launch. The first 2 years were filled with server downtime and crashes along with horrid glitches. What do you expect? These games are made at scales 10x larger than that of Halo or Hello Kitty Island Adventures and there for take 10x times longer to build everything.

 

Frankly EA and Bioware spent way too much money on SWTOR to ignore the things that need to be dealt with, but you as consumers, threatening, screaming & yelling, and flaming like a spoiled 6 year old in JC Penny does not make this situation any better. If you think you can make a better game in less time, do it.

 

Calm down, take a Xanax, and try not to ruin it for the rest of us. I'm not asking you to stop wanting, it'd just be nice if ya'll can calm down and let Bioware do its job. Seriously - its only been two months.

 

As for me, I'll be playing just as I have since launch - waiting and watching this game get better.

 

Here's the list of things I'd like to see in SWTOR patches in the future -

1. Safe Travel Roads - I miss being able to travel freely without being attacked every ten seconds from any direction. It slows gameplay down and feels unnatural to star wars.

 

When luke traveled to Ben the hermits place in IV I didn't see him stop every 10 seconds to fight monsters and get yanked off his speeder.

 

2. PATS - I believe that patrolling elites are broken, especailly with the fact that all mobs can't be pulled apart one at a time, you have to fight all or none - and as a healer from my experience 99% of the times that a PAT comes in my direction if I don't CC I'm dead.

 

3. Music - Where is it? I've youtubed the soundtrack to SWTOR most songs are only 1:00 minute to 2:00 minutes long, where are the SWTOR ballads I've come to love?

 

4. Sorc Heal Leveling - it's quite hard; I did it just for the fact that I love healing and doing it in Heroics and Flashpoints, Respecs are too expensive to swap over and over.

 

4a. Respecs - make them cheaper or add duel specs. Actually just add duel specs.

 

5. I'd like less loading screens

 

6. Voss needs a wider pallet of mobs; do they know that they have a Nexu infestation? its worse than the show infested on Discovery. (Personally I think the guy in charge of placing mobs on Voss just kinda went crazy) - please look into it.

 

7. I'd like to feel like my 1,200$ computer is worth something - less FPS bugs please? and while you are at it stop clogging my computer with leaks.

 

8. I'd also like IP recognition for activators - If I accidentally close my game and want to sign back on real fast, please don't make me go get my tablet every time.

 

9. I personally thing that segregating 50s PvP wasn't the best idea, I as a healer on the Sith side loved playing mixed PvP, now that I only match up with 15-20s I've stopped PvPing until 50

Edited February 1, 2012 by xARCHERx

[JJJShmidt]

People expect a lot from these games now days, and the amount of technical problems the game is still having with people is driving them away. How was releasing the game before its ready benefiting anyone but their shareholders? It just is not good business sense, the game is not doing as well as it could because of their greed.

[xARCHERx]

As a consumer and fan of star wars - I'm happy that I don't have to wait another year,seeing how I've waited since 2008. Personally I think it would have been worse for their business to release it any later. I just don't see the point in yelling over a game that is getting patches up the wazoo fixing a lot of things

 

I think the amount of patches show how hard they are working - these are just from the two months the game has been out.

 

1.1.1 - 1/31/2012

1.1.0c - 1/28/2012

1.1.0b - 1/24/2012

1.1.0a - 1/19/2012

1.1.0 - Rise of the Rakghouls

1.0.2d - 1/12/2012

1.0.2c - 1/6/2012

1.0.2b - 1/5/2012

1.0.2a - 1/4/2012a

1.0.2 - 1/4/2012

1.0.1a - 12/29/2011

1.0.1 - 12/27/2011

1.0.0f - 12/22/2011

1.0.0e - 12/22/2011

1.0.0d - 12/20/2011

1.0.0c - 12/19/2011

1.0.0b - 12/17/2011

1.0.0a - 12/16/2011

1.0.0 - Welcome

 

I think its foolish to rage and throw tantrums when the game is only two months old. I think this is just a case of premature ***********.

 

In WoW during its first 6 months barely out the patches that SWTOR has in two.

 

Patch 1.1.0 7 November 2004

Patch 1.1.1 17 November 2004

Patch 1.1.2 6 December 2004

Patch 1.2.0 18 December 2004

Patch 1.2.1 21 December 2004

Didn't even patch in Jan

Patch 1.2.2 15 February 2005

Patch 1.2.3 22 February 2005

Patch 1.2.4 22 February 2005

Patch 1.3.0 7 March 2005

Patch 1.3.1 22 March 2005

Patch 1.4.0 8th April 2005

Patch 1.4.1 3 May 2005

Patch 1.4.2 3 May 2005

 

Edit: Oh wow, I didn't think that'd get bleeped. Premature "firing."

Edited February 1, 2012 by xARCHERx

[MagizZziaN]

I 100% agree to the opening post. No game is perfect. SWTOR is no exception that.

 

Patience young padawaan ;-)

[TheStampede]

OP, just some food for thought.

 

You compare the player base to spoiled children and then equate Bioware to the parents? Bioware is a business, not the guardian of the player base. Ridiculously false analogy, because Bioware in no way takes responsibility for the rearing or public displays of the player base, as a parent would for a child. Weird choice, really.

 

Second, Bioware is a company offering a product that they presented in a particular light. When Bioware gave a release date, and followed through, they were claiming "Our game is ready, come enjoy it...for money!" Of course players were excited and quickly paid. The truth, however, is that the game was not as polished as one could hope.

 

While the argument has been put forward that "all" MMOs have had similar problems, and so Bioware shouldn't be judged too harshly, the truth is that precisely because so many MMOs have experienced similar difficulty that SWTOR should have done better. The list of problems can be researched as easily as you did. The number of patches required, common problems, etc. Given how many MMOs have existed and been thoroughly fleshed out and taken apart and studied from every direction till Ragnarok, Bioware should have been able to provide a more polished product out the gate. Customers know this, and so when the product that was advertised, and that they have paid for, isn't up to snuff...they complain.

 

Third, they complain on the FORUMS. The very place where players are invited to come and share their thoughts, feelings, angst and anger. You're claim that the player base who is upset with these items should not complain on the forums is like getting upset that someone filled a comment box at Taco Bell to say "Your tacos were awful, honestly thought it was rat meat." Why have a comment card? Why have game forums? It's not as though players are protesting outside the Bioware offices, or attempting to have LucasArts shut the whole project down. They are voicing their complaints in the only real way they can be sure it will be heard by Bioware; the company's forum.

 

Finally; the arrogance! This adopting of a superior attitude because you are apparently more willing to accept manure when steak was promised. Congratulations on having small expectations and lacking the strength of character to raise a cry alongside you're betters. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you think this will buy you brownie points with the community, with Bioware, or that your post will assure others of your intellectual. emotional, and ethical superiority. Given this, you are clearly a despicable boot-licker of the worst kind.

 

I honestly can't imagine that you thought your little diatribe would result in anything but backlash from the community. I really hope you are a young person, because naivete on this scale would be tragic in an adult.

[Lammio]

Enough reasons why I only use the Crew Skill Guide on this forum.

all the flaming.....

nuff said

 

may the force be with those who earn it.

[lineschmidt]

OP, just some food for thought.

 

You compare the player base to spoiled children and then equate Bioware to the parents? Bioware is a business, not the guardian of the player base. Ridiculously false analogy, because Bioware in no way takes responsibility for the rearing or public displays of the player base, as a parent would for a child. Weird choice, really.

 

Second, Bioware is a company offering a product that they presented in a particular light. When Bioware gave a release date, and followed through, they were claiming "Our game is ready, come enjoy it...for money!" Of course players were excited and quickly paid. The truth, however, is that the game was not as polished as one could hope.

 

While the argument has been put forward that "all" MMOs have had similar problems, and so Bioware shouldn't be judged too harshly, the truth is that precisely because so many MMOs have experienced similar difficulty that SWTOR should have done better. The list of problems can be researched as easily as you did. The number of patches required, common problems, etc. Given how many MMOs have existed and been thoroughly fleshed out and taken apart and studied from every direction till Ragnarok, Bioware should have been able to provide a more polished product out the gate. Customers know this, and so when the product that was advertised, and that they have paid for, isn't up to snuff...they complain.

 

Third, they complain on the FORUMS. The very place where players are invited to come and share their thoughts, feelings, angst and anger. You're claim that the player base who is upset with these items should not complain on the forums is like getting upset that someone filled a comment box at Taco Bell to say "Your tacos were awful, honestly thought it was rat meat." Why have a comment card? Why have game forums? It's not as though players are protesting outside the Bioware offices, or attempting to have LucasArts shut the whole project down. They are voicing their complaints in the only real way they can be sure it will be heard by Bioware; the company's forum.

 

Finally; the arrogance! This adopting of a superior attitude because you are apparently more willing to accept manure when steak was promised. Congratulations on having small expectations and lacking the strength of character to raise a cry alongside you're betters. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you think this will buy you brownie points with the community, with Bioware, or that your post will assure others of your intellectual. emotional, and ethical superiority. Given this, you are clearly a despicable boot-licker of the worst kind.

 

I honestly can't imagine that you thought your little diatribe would result in anything but backlash from the community. I really hope you are a young person, because naivete on this scale would be tragic in an adult.

QFT

 

OP, no one gives a **** about you and your mmo experience. I've played mmos longer than you and i think this game is a complete mess. How's that for you?

[BladeStrike]

Haha still comparing to WoW's early days are we? Its 2012, wake up. Anyway, would I rather be a spoiled brat or a doormat...hmm. Stop making threads thinking your opinion is important.

[Ironspeed]

I aint having that many issues with the game tbh, but I will say something about a few things:

 

UI, I think it's a mistake, I dont like it, many others dont like it, it should be changable, thankfully this is in the "future plans video"

 

Traveling, I hate the flow of things, I absolutly hate running back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, it's boring, it's not necesary it's bad!

 

Make advanced classes start at level 1, having to play through the starter area twice is once to many, if you wanna try all 4 options for each plannet on both sides it gets more then anoying, since the choice is permanent it's to much of a gamble to know how it feels during the rest of the time.

 

LFG options should be better, I stopped trying with the whole spamming in general, and yes I do flag myself as LFG but it's no use when it's lackluster and other people dont seem to bother with it.

 

Other then this, I like the game, had fun levling my first 50, now I'm on my second character (started with a lightsaber class, now I do the whole ranged pew pew)

[Nussianis]

Sorry but comparing a game that was just released at the tail end of 2011, using a now common game engine, in a saturated mmo market, to a game that was released back in 2004 and using what was a new game engine at the time is actually quite absurd.

 

I will say me and my wife are enjoying this game. But we also have to restart are game every couple of hours on Voss because a mysterious bug that didn't get caught in beta or 5 years in development. It's annoying.

 

Look having played video games for the last 27 years I remember a time when games didn't get patched. They had to make sure they worked right the 1st time. Now there is this belief by the gaming corps to just put it out now and fix it later. That business mentality needs to stop.

 

The video game crash of 1983 happened because of poor quality control (E.T for the Atari anyone?) Many of us see it coming again(Ulitmate Marvel vs Capcom 3? 5 months after Marvel vs. Capcom 3?!) Unless the gaming corps start getting it through their heads that gamers, rightfully so, expect more especially as the price of games and gaming format prices keep going up.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nussianis

[Vesperr]

Raging, whiney and trolly kids are the bane of every forum but in SWTOR there's just a planet-scale infestation of them. I wish people would try to think before posting...

Sorry but comparing a game that was just released at the tail end of 2011, using a now common game engine,

Now an engine with 2 released games (one of which is swtor) is common, yea...

Edited February 1, 2012 by Vesperr

[Whatsalightsaver]

OP, just some food for thought.

 

You compare the player base to spoiled children and then equate Bioware to the parents? Bioware is a business, not the guardian of the player base. Ridiculously false analogy, because Bioware in no way takes responsibility for the rearing or public displays of the player base, as a parent would for a child. Weird choice, really.

 

Second, Bioware is a company offering a product that they presented in a particular light. When Bioware gave a release date, and followed through, they were claiming "Our game is ready, come enjoy it...for money!" Of course players were excited and quickly paid. The truth, however, is that the game was not as polished as one could hope.

 

While the argument has been put forward that "all" MMOs have had similar problems, and so Bioware shouldn't be judged too harshly, the truth is that precisely because so many MMOs have experienced similar difficulty that SWTOR should have done better. The list of problems can be researched as easily as you did. The number of patches required, common problems, etc. Given how many MMOs have existed and been thoroughly fleshed out and taken apart and studied from every direction till Ragnarok, Bioware should have been able to provide a more polished product out the gate. Customers know this, and so when the product that was advertised, and that they have paid for, isn't up to snuff...they complain.

 

Third, they complain on the FORUMS. The very place where players are invited to come and share their thoughts, feelings, angst and anger. You're claim that the player base who is upset with these items should not complain on the forums is like getting upset that someone filled a comment box at Taco Bell to say "Your tacos were awful, honestly thought it was rat meat." Why have a comment card? Why have game forums? It's not as though players are protesting outside the Bioware offices, or attempting to have LucasArts shut the whole project down. They are voicing their complaints in the only real way they can be sure it will be heard by Bioware; the company's forum.

 

Finally; the arrogance! This adopting of a superior attitude because you are apparently more willing to accept manure when steak was promised. Congratulations on having small expectations and lacking the strength of character to raise a cry alongside you're betters. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you think this will buy you brownie points with the community, with Bioware, or that your post will assure others of your intellectual. emotional, and ethical superiority. Given this, you are clearly a despicable boot-licker of the worst kind.

 

I honestly can't imagine that you thought your little diatribe would result in anything but backlash from the community. I really hope you are a young person, because naivete on this scale would be tragic in an adult.

 

This post should be linked in every thread in the forum. They should create new threads just to post this in. God, why is it so difficult for people to understand the things you just typed?

[Nussianis]

Raging, whiney and trolly kids are the bane of every forum but in SWTOR there's just a planet-scale infestation of them. I wish people would try to think before posting...

 

Now an engine with 2 released games (one of which is swtor) is common, yea...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeroEngine

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simutronics

 

 

Its a engine that's almost 10 years old...

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nussianis

[Vesperr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeroEngine

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simutronics

 

 

Its a engine that's almost 10 years old...

 

I like the "stable release" part...

[Nussianis]

I like the "stable release" part...

 

Vesperr I get you're really trying here, but if say SWTOR made their own engine, I would be more forgiving. Instead they have a old engine that has had years of development and research into it.

 

*Edit* However once again my complaint isn't with nerfs or buffs. You play mmos, you get nerfs and buffs. Stability and crashes on the other hand is a quality control issue.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nussianis

[Belchie]

..Congratulations on having small expectations and lacking the strength of character to raise a cry alongside you're betters...

 

Ah, so throwing a temper tantrum is now a sign of having a higher degree of character...or something....

 

The OP made some valid points. Yes, the forum is a place to give the community a voice. unfortunately, there are many that seem unable to contribute without reverting back to grade school style commentary. Is it the OP's fault for taking note of this, and giving his own commentary? I suppose you should even applaud him for having the 'stength of character' to go against the majority opinion and point out what he has observed.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Belchie

[Talmonis]

The sheer amount of temper tantrum throwing children is staggering. OP is right. I'm sorry but, "Waaaaah You nerfed slicing, and I'm gonna Quit and make everyone I know quit if you don't unnerf it! WAAAAAAH!" is not, has not and will never be "valid criticism". Being critical of the games flaws? Go for it, feedback is good and the game is buggier than a CIA warehouse. Stamping your feet and holding your breath because Bioware won't make your chosen class into an instant win godmode? Rediculous, and worth nothing but the scorn and derision of level headed people everywhere. Get over yourselves, ACTUALLY quit the next time you threaten, and make the game a better place for everyone else.

[Jooji]

Why is the OP comparing Vanilla WoW(8 years ago) to SWTOR? Apples and oranges...

 

Anyway, the reason people complain is because they're paying customers. We pay $150+ to play this game yearly. That's quite a bit. That's as much as my gym membership. If a piece of equipment doesn't work in my gym I certainly expect it to get fixed.

 

And not everyone is "screaming obscenities." There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism.

[Talmonis]

Why is the OP comparing Vanilla WoW(8 years ago) to SWTOR? Apples and oranges...

 

Anyway, the reason people complain is because they're paying customers. We pay $150+ to play this game yearly. That's quite a bit. That's as much as my gym membership. If a piece of equipment doesn't work in my gym I certainly expect it to get fixed.

 

And not everyone is "screaming obscenities." There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism.

 

But that's just it, the OP isn't against constructive criticism. I don't think ANYONE is against constructive criticism (barring a rare few truly insane fanboys). But have you ever been on a "Why was (insert thing here) Nerfed?!!1one!" thread? It's a bloody madhouse of what I can only hope and pray are self-absorbed Teenagers who think the world revolves around EXACTLY what they want (and nobody else).

[thecoffeecup]

I agree that a lot of the complaining is a bit unreasonable.

 

However, I do not think it's unreasonable to expect a bit more feedback than what we are getting. I also think there are plenty of legitimate complainst that are being lumped together with the ones that aren't.

 

By the way, it's worth to remember, for you and for Bioware, that a lot of us are voicing concerns because the game does NOT suck. We like it enough to care about it. I don't go to the Duke Nukem Forever forums (if they have any) and complain because frankly I think that game is so bad it's not worth my time. I think SWTOR is a good game, on the other hand. Otherwise I would be long gone.

Edited February 1, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[Jooji]

I agree that a lot of the complaining is a bit unreasonable.

 

However, I do not think it's unreasonable to expect a bit more feedback than what we are getting. I also think there are plenty of legitimate complainst that are being lumped together with the ones that aren't.

 

By the way, it's worth to remember, for you and for Bioware, that a lot of us are voicing concerns because the game does NOT suck. We like it enough to care about it. I don't go to the Duke Nukem Forever forums (if they have any) and complain because frankly I think that game is so bad it's not worth my time. I think SWTOR is a good game, on the other hand. Otherwise I would be long gone.

 

Thank you for saying what I couldn't. This is exactly how I feel and this post sums it all up.

[TheStampede]

The OP made some valid points. Yes, the forum is a place to give the community a voice. unfortunately, there are many that seem unable to contribute without reverting back to grade school style commentary.

 

The truth is, most people in the country (and probably many who play this game) aren't amazing at making themselves well-understood, or expressing themselves in clear ways. Does that mean their viewpoint should be disregarded? Because that is what the OP claims and what you seem to be supporting.

 

Its a service. We pay for it. We can demand a quality product or choose not to pay for it. A large part of the community is telling Bioware that if their product doesn't pick up, they will stop paying for it. Their inability (or choice, who knows?) to express themselves in a way which does not meet with your standard has nothing to do with their perspective and viewpoint being recognized. Nor does their choice of expression have anything to do with the validity of their argument.

 

I doubt anyone doesn't have problems with the game's bugs, instability, or other hair-pulling frustrations. How dare you deign to criticize people for sharing their feelings in the way in which they are most comfortable? One of the great things faceless internet forums has brought us is the ability to share in immature, ridiculous, or any other kind of attention-grabbing way without having to suffer the same kind of social ridicule we would if we conducted the same behavior with our neighbors.

 

What's more one could even make the argument that it takes behavior exactly like this to even get anyone to pay attention to their viewpoints. I know from experience that well-thought out and presented arguments are not taken seriously very often. And if you want to be noticed in the bustling, confusing, and oft-changing internet community you have to make a splash/stink/to-do/hubbub etc. Maybe it's not the most dignified way to make an argument, but it is the best way to ensure your ideas are heard. If I want to convince one person I speak quietly with well-thought out arguments. If I have to reach an entire crowd I start yelling in clipped language that is straight to the point.

 

How this can be difficult to understand escapes me.

[Talmonis]

The truth is, most people in the country (and probably many who play this game) aren't amazing at making themselves well-understood, or expressing themselves in clear ways. Does that mean their viewpoint should be disregarded? Because that is what the OP claims and what you seem to be supporting.

 

Its a service. We pay for it. We can demand a quality product or choose not to pay for it. A large part of the community is telling Bioware that if their product doesn't pick up, they will stop paying for it. Their inability (or choice, who knows?) to express themselves in a way which does not meet with your standard has nothing to do with their perspective and viewpoint being recognized. Nor does their choice of expression have anything to do with the validity of their argument.

 

I doubt anyone doesn't have problems with the game's bugs, instability, or other hair-pulling frustrations. How dare you deign to criticize people for sharing their feelings in the way in which they are most comfortable? One of the great things faceless internet forums has brought us is the ability to share in immature, ridiculous, or any other kind of attention-grabbing way without having to suffer the same kind of social ridicule we would if we conducted the same behavior with our neighbors.

 

What's more one could even make the argument that it takes behavior exactly like this to even get anyone to pay attention to their viewpoints. I know from experience that well-thought out and presented arguments are not taken seriously very often. And if you want to be noticed in the bustling, confusing, and oft-changing internet community you have to make a splash/stink/to-do/hubbub etc. Maybe it's not the most dignified way to make an argument, but it is the best way to ensure your ideas are heard. If I want to convince one person I speak quietly with well-thought out arguments. If I have to reach an entire crowd I start yelling in clipped language that is straight to the point.

 

How this can be difficult to understand escapes me.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, we understand that they're idiots. Even if idiots have valid criticisms, they're still idiots. Being obnoxious, immature and attention grabbing should never be seen as a good thing. There is a reason normal people shun and ridicule you when you act like a child in public, and it's sickening to me that people encourage such behavior on the internet. Being a schmuck is being a schmuck, and we need to keep the stigma going, lest it bleed over into the real world any further than it already has.

[SpeedySalmon]

The truth is, most people in the country (and probably many who play this game) aren't amazing at making themselves well-understood, or expressing themselves in clear ways. Does that mean their viewpoint should be disregarded? Because that is what the OP claims and what you seem to be supporting.

 

Its a service. We pay for it. We can demand a quality product or choose not to pay for it. A large part of the community is telling Bioware that if their product doesn't pick up, they will stop paying for it. Their inability (or choice, who knows?) to express themselves in a way which does not meet with your standard has nothing to do with their perspective and viewpoint being recognized. Nor does their choice of expression have anything to do with the validity of their argument.

 

I doubt anyone doesn't have problems with the game's bugs, instability, or other hair-pulling frustrations. How dare you deign to criticize people for sharing their feelings in the way in which they are most comfortable? One of the great things faceless internet forums has brought us is the ability to share in immature, ridiculous, or any other kind of attention-grabbing way without having to suffer the same kind of social ridicule we would if we conducted the same behavior with our neighbors.

 

What's more one could even make the argument that it takes behavior exactly like this to even get anyone to pay attention to their viewpoints. I know from experience that well-thought out and presented arguments are not taken seriously very often. And if you want to be noticed in the bustling, confusing, and oft-changing internet community you have to make a splash/stink/to-do/hubbub etc. Maybe it's not the most dignified way to make an argument, but it is the best way to ensure your ideas are heard. If I want to convince one person I speak quietly with well-thought out arguments. If I have to reach an entire crowd I start yelling in clipped language that is straight to the point.

 

How this can be difficult to understand escapes me.

 

I think you're severely overexaggerating the level of humanity present in the community. You're speaking a lot about freedom of expression and the inability for a group of people to get their point across, but you're ignoring the fact that the reason people aren't able to get their points across is because instead of posting a well-thought out, factually supported wall of text (such as yours, my compliments), they're resorting to two or three lines of disconnected rambling that ends with an ultimatum. You'll notice that, in most of those threads, they get the qft hammer, but you're making it seem like everyone hero-worships them, which I just haven't seen. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think you're ignoring a few key points in your argument. You don't need to kick and scream to get your point across. You just need to say the right things.

[Talmonis]

I think you're severely overexaggerating the level of humanity present in the community. You're speaking a lot about freedom of expression and the inability for a group of people to get their point across, but you're ignoring the fact that the reason people aren't able to get their points across is because instead of posting a well-thought out, factually supported wall of text (such as yours, my compliments), they're resorting to two or three lines of disconnected rambling that ends with an ultimatum. You'll notice that, in most of those threads, they get the qft hammer, but you're making it seem like everyone hero-worships them, which I just haven't seen. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think you're ignoring a few key points in your argument. You don't need to kick and scream to get your point across. You just need to say the right things.

 

This is putting it much nicer than I have (i have no delusions that I'm not a mean spirited d$%&), and I agree. You yourself speak eloquently enough to get a point across, which is to be commended; though I'm not terribly sure why on earth you would want to defend the frothing rabble for the act of being a frothing rabble.