dejavy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Agree with all except arenas. Hope arenas will never find place in TOR. Edited February 1, 2012 by dejavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koskilicious Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Agree with all except arenas. Arenas will kill balance in the game because devs will be constantly trying to fix balance for high end top geared arena teams. The rest of ordinary players will always complain because their classes sux in comparison with others only because in top gear his numbers theoreticaly would be too high. I remember the day when hunters suked before they get top arena gear and devs said "hunters are fine". Hunters were fine indeed if your hands straight and gear top. But MOST hunters didn't have it because no one wanted to play with hunters when you have a shpriest or a frost mage. I said bb to WoW and left because i didn't want to play any other OP class of a season. (20 frost mages on BG was a norm once) I don't want to see ultra top geared arena imps anihilating all those who didn't manage to get the gear in first 2 weeks of the arena season. ALL players must have equal possibilities of getting top gear. I spent 2 weeks farming valor for BM and i have my top gear now. I don't want any arenas to get even better gear because even now my foes don't have a chance even in centurion (some in full champ) against me. Arenas will quickly define top setups of players and if you don't suit it, you'll just stay back. Let me guess 4 sorc setups will be here and there everywhere. They don't even need a healer. Hope arenas will never find place in TOR. Arenas don't have to follow the same rules as WoW. But I think its important to look at what aspects of WoW made the game so successful, and what aspects were a hindrance. Overall, arenas gathered a large community, and a very loyal community at that. One idea would be to have all gear equal when someone joins an arena, and make gear less determining towards a win than skill. I don't want to turn this game into WoW. I just want to take the best from both worlds and make a better game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznank Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) you make good points. but you also assume this is a pvp game (you state it several times) and it is not, what on earth would make you think that a developer like bioware would give anything more than a passing thought to pvp? especially with EA screaming release at them every 20 days. as far as arenas... they need to be added immediately, have a 15 - 30 second time period to choose your ARENA ONLY ALWAYS EQUAL set of gear (healer vs DPS set for a commando lets say) and give absolutely no reward other than a team rank system. if you argue this, then you aren't in it for the competition. bottom line, this game... just isn't that good, we all want it to be... but thats just because its star wars themed, if it wasn't, lets face it, it would be a trash trash game with >100k subs. Edited February 1, 2012 by shiznank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koskilicious Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 you make good points. but you also assume this is a pvp game (you state it several times) and it is not, what on earth would make you think that a developer like bioware would give anything more than a passing thought to pvp? especially with EA screaming release at them every 20 days. bottom line, this game... just isn't that good, we all want it to be... but thats just because its star wars themed, if it wasn't, lets face it, it would be a trash trash game with >100k subs. It doesn't have to be a PVP only game. I recognize and respect that. But Bioware has stated that PVP will be a pillar of the game. I just want it to be the best it can be, and I'm hopeful they will respond, although that optimism is definitely wavering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paucky Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I agree with most of what you are saying, the PVP does need work. I enjoyed Arenas, but I think it changed MMO PVP forever, and not in a good way. I think they can make a small Warzone that is 4v4, and you will get the same affect as Arenas. Then Bioware can open other Warzones, and focus on PVP as a whole, and fix all of the bugs. If they focus on a new system, and Arenas, then PVP as a whole will suffer. Lets fix what is broken now, before we add more broken stuff to spread out our resources to address. Idea: I want a large never ending Warzone, so I can join and run PVP any time I want. I want to be able to have many quests in there, that can be repeatable, and offer pvp rewards. I want small side quests, where a small stealth group tries to capture a point, then it triggers a new quest for the other faction to defend it, and promote small surgical strikes, where both factions have the opportunity to Gank, and kill in PVP, while having a lot of fun. This would be a great way to collect your armaments, and run other pvp quests, and dailys. They can also program bots that they can put in to offset the population imbalance. They can make them smart, and run in groups of 3 or 4, and have them also running the quests, and ganking people. The ideas, and potential for running an eternal Warzone are endless. The only concern is that there has to be small short quests, and side quests. fighting for 6 hours, and getting 32 valor would suck, so it needs to have some good controls as well. Edited February 1, 2012 by Paucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznank Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It doesn't have to be a PVP only game. I recognize and respect that. But Bioware has stated that PVP will be a pillar of the game. I just want it to be the best it can be, and I'm hopeful they will respond, although that optimism is definitely wavering. i was hoping for a lot more as well :-/. optimism has already faded lol. I'm giving it another 2 months max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talkative Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Arenas don't have to follow the same rules as WoW. But I think its important to look at what aspects of WoW made the game so successful, and what aspects were a hindrance. Overall, arenas gathered a large community, and a very loyal community at that. One idea would be to have all gear equal when someone joins an arena, and make gear less determining towards a win than skill. I don't want to turn this game into WoW. I just want to take the best from both worlds and make a better game. Arenas were never a comparatively large community. At least as far as people who would only do arenas. They did more to splinter the WoW community than any other single thing, including Blood Elves. Net result? Developer who played arenas steps away from dev role and the rest of the dev staff makes a private decision to ignore arena for future development. Net result: arena is even more lol than it was at its height, and only a handful of "hardcore pvpers" care. PVE players are pleased with no nerfs over arena, and respond by sticking around longer. Net gain for Blizzard. Like people have said, you have good points until you try to promote arenas as a good idea. I'm sure someone could empirically prove that arenas are bad for games with PVE end games, but you'd need the data to do it. Blizzard says they have and it was, and right now they're the only ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baenor Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Auto-facing does not belong in pvp:mad: Nor does bunny hopping and running through toons. That sort of behaviour has always been retarded in other MMO's. Auto-facing working as intented. nuf said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithTheDarkLord Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with all your points and will keep this thread bumped as much as possible until we get some response from the devs in the PvP forum. I'm all for arena as long it's for titles/arena rating only and not gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okinky Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I never like arenas in WoW, which may or may not be the reason I wasn't good at them (let's be honest, probably was not why). They always felt too team-deathmatch-y, and cod4 has forever ruined that gamestyle to me. So part of me, the very biased part, never wants to see another game I play to do arenas again. That being said, the fairer part of me, the one I don't like, can see how someone could like it, and would want more than just objective fighting or wants smaller, more intense battle-to-the-death ranked competitions. Even this part of me hates the idea WoW went with in giving arenas the only REAL pvp gear. I don't like the idea of arenas getting nothing, though. I would strive for a middle ground and say arena players, if it were created, could get gear at the same level (item level) as warzone players. No better, no worse. This would also, sadly, have to be less than or equal to the system warzone players use to get their gear. I don't think arena should be a faster way of getting gear than warzones or Illum, hence the "less than", but at the same time be a way of doing so semi-equally. If a balance could not be struck in the time it takes to get gear in wz/arena, then arena should fall behind. (This, I feel, is both sides of me agreeing. Still biased. Lore wise, the game is a war, and war rewards should at no point be behind a competition game). This way, arena is still about competition, and you could, if you want, include the design that both teams enter on equal footing. Both have same gear, same stats, but different item choices/spec choices. (I think this was mentioned earlier.) At the same time, they could earn gear to use in WZ and Illum, giving them something other than just fun. *Edited to space out sentences to avoid the wall of text. Edited February 1, 2012 by Okinky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsalcedo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Hey Fellas, I am a very long time experienced PVP'er (Mostly WoW 5x Glad, don't hate me for it). I want to point out some obvious flaws in the current state of PVP and allow everyone to add in their 2 cents to form a complete list of what we feel needs to be changed for the better. This post will be focused on PVP flaws and needed fixes. We want to keep the PVP community strong, because SWTOR has such a great potential to be a fantastic and competitive PVP gaming experience. I want to stay away from specific Class imbalances for now and focus mostly on Warzones/Ilum. Warzones: Wins not counting. I saw in the current recent patch notes that hopefully this has been fixed. Nothing is more frustrating than being at 8/9 in the weekly on Monday night and winning 3 games in a row at 2 AM that don't count before finally giving up and going to bed - missing out on the next week's weekly. Quitting out early. There should be a deserter penalty given to players who leave Warzones before they are complete. More than 8 players?? I've been in games with 12 Empire players against 8 Republic opponents. Nuff said. In Huttball, Powertechs and Assassins can sit in their spawn, and pull enemy players into their spawn before the enemy can cap the ball to score a point. When doing so, the enemy player is instantly killed. I have been in games with players who will actually stand in the fire to commit suicide, just to respawn and deny a cap by pulling enemies into this insta-kill barrier. This should be immediately looked at. (We ended up winning still - silly Republic Shadow) Kicked to the Imperial Fleet? When I join late, and have to wait for load times, to miss the initial spawn release at the beginning of a game, I'm most often removed from the Warzone and placed on the Imp. fleet. This is retarded. Adrenals - Why are these usable in Warzones? World PvP is much different, but Adrenals should not be allowed to be used in Warzones. It is making Biochem an absolute must have for serious minded PvP players, and a severe imbalance to players who have chosen a different Crew Skill. I'm all for having the ability to customize and min/max your character to be as competitive as possible, but this should be looked at. Bags - The bag system has a great number of flaws and is probably the absolute worst reward system I have ever seen in a PVP game. There are players who hit level 50 and immediately have full Champion gear, and other players who are valor rank 59, and have been grinding their butts off for weeks straight to have only 3 pieces. I myself opened 6 bags today with no rewards. I would suggest that there are no repeat rewards given and that the drop rate of Champion gear per bag be increased. Or that the system is scrapped and go to a point system, where you get points for quests and are allowed to pick and choose how to spend them. Also, why do Battlemaster players still receive Champion gear bags? This is a very silly concept. Battlemaster and above ranked players should only receive Battlemaster bags from Daily/Weekly quests, as the Champion level gear has now become obsolete. This is a no brainer. I also believe that there should not be a cap on the number of Champion/Battlemaster Bags a player can acquire before he is the appropriate valor rank to open/wear the Champion/Battlemaster gear. For example, if I am a level 50 rank valor player grinding for Battlemaster with full Champion, why can't I start earning Battlemaster rewards for the future and stack more than one Battlemaster bag? Medals - Why are there Defensive Medals, and no Offensive Medals? If I score the ball in Huttball, I should receive a Medal or reward for doing so. I get medals for Defending Capture points, but not for Offensively capping them? This is silly. Resolve - Resolve is probably the worst mechanic in the game currently. Every single class in the game has a wide array of stuns, interrupts, knockbacks and incapicatating abilities. Resolve does not work well enough in preventing players from being chain stunned/knocked back. A knockback should instantly fill the resolve bar, and the resolve bar should stay full for a much longer time period. This forces players to think smarter about when to stun/knockbacks. At the very least, knockbacks should have diminishing returns with other knockbacks, and stuns should share DR with stuns as well. (BTW, Operatives are better off after this recent patch, because they can now chain their opening stuns with disregard to the Resolve bar because of how broken it is - its not the class, its Resolve) Daily/Weekly Quests: If I complete a Daily or Weekly quest the day I receive it, but turn in the quest the following day, I can not then get the quest for the Daily/Weekly for that day. This needs to be fixed so that completing the quest, not turning it in, counts respectively. The 150 Kills requirement for the Ilum weekly is very steep for both factions. Republic are outnumbers and Empire players have too few Republic players to kill. I would suggest have armament spawns in more than just the Central location, with a faster respawn timer, as well as lowering the number to 90 (3 times the Daily, just like Warzone wins). When I turn in a Daily/Weekly, why am I not rewarded with Valor? Normal quests reward experience - PVP quests should reward a large number of Valor. This would additionally incent players to complete Daily/Weekly quests regularly as they are grinding to Battlemaster rankings. I also would like to see more quests added. Perhaps a quest to achieve 8+ medals in a Warzone. Or Warzone specific quests, such as Score the Huttball, or Download the data in Voidstar in under 5 minutes. Ilum: When I die in Ilum, I can /stuck and instantly reappear where I was killed, allowing me to pick off the poor guy who beat me down and is trying to heal himself back up. (Sorry to all you Repubs who owned me) Server population imbalances. Its been said before, and its obvious to see, Empire is just much cooler than Republic, and thus we outnumber the poor guys fighting for good. And by a very large margin. This completely defeats the purpose of Ilum. Republics don't have a chance and Empire players are fighting for the scraps, few are far between. I think that the zone needs to be sized down considerably so that players have a greater chance of finding each other and engaging in combat. As I said above, armament spawns should be greatly increased and added to both Northern and Southern Assaults to allow players to engage in more places for the rewards armaments provide. Kills not counting - When I've killed the same Republic player twice in a 3-5 minute span, I only get credit for one kill. I can understand the thought behind this, but its not working. Because there are so few Republic players to find, let alone kill, each kill should count. There should be no hidden immunity timer. General: Arenas. This makes for one of the most competitive environments for serious minded players. Competing on a small scale with groups of 1-5 is one of the most exciting aspects of PVP in any game. Arenas need to be added. I feel that the player base of SWTOR overall, especially the PVP minded players would support Arenas. Arenas brings an added element of responsibility for Bioware, in that players are much more demanding in terms of balance, but the payoff is greater than the effort required. If you want to remain a strong game for years to come, Arenas is a great way to build player loyalty. Auto Camera Follow: WHY CAN'T I DISABLE THE AUTO CAMERA FOLLOW YET??!?!?!? This is a complete joke. Try running and targeting an opponent from behind you. Hint: YOU CANT! Targeting: The targeting in this game is probably the worst I have ever experienced. The lack of macros for Focus/Friendly targeting, on top of the fact that its nearly impossible to click on either an opponent, but especially a friendly player (guard/heals) makes targeting the #1 fail in my book. This really needs to be fixed. Ability Delay/Denial: Sometimes I spam my Vanish (forget the real name of the ability on my Assassin) and it looks back it me with a smug smile, deciding not to comply. Ability Delay hopefully is already being looked at, but what about when abilities simply don't go off at all? Let me know what you guys think. Certainly not everyone is going to agree with me, but I think most of these changes are reasonable and overall would be healthier for the game. Thanks. How about calm down take it easy and wait for fixes to roll out if they feel like fixing some of these issues is worthwhile? Like the imbalance there really is no real fix for this what did you expect when you rolled Republic a cheery group of people and lots of them? On Empire side you have purple lightning and other cool effects such as death from above. The Republic side options for those effects are just okay although picking up huge items out of the ground and smacking people with it is kinda mean and fun. Just wait until the game matures and stop it with the complaints people stuck out for WoW to fix lots of issues so just wait and be patient if not no ones forcing you to play. My two cents. Also all of you guys on these forums with the I WANT IT NOW points of view need to learn to sit down and be patient. < That is to everyone on these forums who complains at these early stages of an MMO > Edited February 1, 2012 by vsalcedo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthcavy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Agree with the op . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koskilicious Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with most of what you are saying, the PVP does need work. I enjoyed Arenas, but I think it changed MMO PVP forever, and not in a good way. I think they can make a small Warzone that is 4v4, and you will get the same affect as Arenas. Then Bioware can open other Warzones, and focus on PVP as a whole, and fix all of the bugs. If they focus on a new system, and Arenas, then PVP as a whole will suffer. Lets fix what is broken now, before we add more broken stuff to spread out our resources to address. Idea: I want a large never ending Warzone, so I can join and run PVP any time I want. I want to be able to have many quests in there, that can be repeatable, and offer pvp rewards. I want small side quests, where a small stealth group tries to capture a point, then it triggers a new quest for the other faction to defend it, and promote small surgical strikes, where both factions have the opportunity to Gank, and kill in PVP, while having a lot of fun. This would be a great way to collect your armaments, and run other pvp quests, and dailys. They can also program bots that they can put in to offset the population imbalance. They can make them smart, and run in groups of 3 or 4, and have them also running the quests, and ganking people. The ideas, and potential for running an eternal Warzone are endless. The only concern is that there has to be small short quests, and side quests. fighting for 6 hours, and getting 32 valor would suck, so it needs to have some good controls as well. I REALLY like the idea of the 4 man warzone. Great reply. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koskilicious Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 How about calm down take it easy and wait for fixes to roll out if they feel like fixing some of these issues is worthwhile? Like the imbalance there really is no real fix for this what did you expect when you rolled Republic a cheery group of people and lots of them? On Empire side you have purple lightning and other cool effects such as death from above. The Republic side options for those effects are just okay although picking up huge items out of the ground and smacking people with it is kinda mean and fun. Just wait until the game matures and stop it with the complaints people stuck out for WoW to fix lots of issues so just wait and be patient if not no ones forcing you to play. My two cents. Also all of you guys on these forums with the I WANT IT NOW points of view need to learn to sit down and be patient. < That is to everyone on these forums who complains at these early stages of an MMO > At the end of the day, this is a business and any business should be run with their customer's in mind. I am a paying customer, and I fully support the game both financially and otherwise, BUT, I still think these would benefit the game as a whole. I never said it has to be NOW. What I would like to see is some ACTION on Bioware's part. Responding to a thread, giving out ideas, or explaining why they have made some of the decisions they have made. I appreciate the response, and I get what you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadcatGTs Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Hey Fellas, I am a very long time experienced PVP'er (Mostly WoW Stopped reading right about there. Anything you say is bad and should not be done. What bioware needs to do, is take away warzones, as instanced pvp is bad. remove expertise from the game and make it so pve/pvp gear are one and the same, just different ways of getting it. Then, expand open world pvp. Make it so the Uncharted space has planets you can control in parts or the whole thing, sectors of space you can make stations and so on and so on. This way, there can be massive fights over control over stuff, and factions will never be a problem since its outside of governed space. 'Cause its not outside of lore for sith to kill each other, or jedi to go rouge. That way everything is clan based, and not light/dark side. Edited February 1, 2012 by MadcatGTs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenReafer Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Great post by the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrellien Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Stopped reading right about there. Stopped reading right about there too. If you're not going to spend the time to read the opinions of others why should I read yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koskilicious Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Stopped reading right about there. Stopped reading right about there too. If you're not going to spend the time to read the opinions of others why should I read yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazookahero Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This is the best thread on this forum /salute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So I have a Scoundrel healer and in one WZ I healed for 250k and got 2 medals. Healers need to be rewareded for actualyl healing. If I stop healing to try and get kills and finishing blows, my teamates die and I'm not doing my job. The current system essentially encourages healers to try and get kills so they get a decent return on valor/commendations/exp/credit. They need to be encouraged to do their jobs. Here are some more medal ideas for healers: 150k healed Healed 8 different people (during combat) Brought an ally from 10% health to 80% health (during combat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenReafer Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) How about calm down take it easy and wait for fixes to roll out if they feel like fixing some of these issues is worthwhile? Like the imbalance there really is no real fix for this what did you expect when you rolled Republic a cheery group of people and lots of them? On Empire side you have purple lightning and other cool effects such as death from above. The Republic side options for those effects are just okay although picking up huge items out of the ground and smacking people with it is kinda mean and fun. Just wait until the game matures and stop it with the complaints people stuck out for WoW to fix lots of issues so just wait and be patient if not no ones forcing you to play. My two cents. Also all of you guys on these forums with the I WANT IT NOW points of view need to learn to sit down and be patient. < That is to everyone on these forums who complains at these early stages of an MMO > Why are you telling him to calm down? he wrote a well presented post on a forum in a calm and collective manner? Are you having a bad day and reading it in an angry tone? lol What your wrote belongs in 99% of the topics here in the PvP forums, but I think he did a nice job of summing up the issues people would like to recieve word on like many other companies with customer service would make some sort of an announcement to let people know these main issues were on their radar. Edited February 1, 2012 by GreenReafer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG_Swerve Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Your ideas are based mainly on what you have experienced success in and want to replicate here - that's human nature. Having said that? This is a game and I'd rather eat my own hat than to play WoW 2. So I say fark arenas, fix the server imbalances and give us a real reason to world pvp...other than a new piece of loot thanks. As for the OP, I'd suggest going back to WoW and trying for 'Glad' title number 6. Funny how some think that WoW Arenas should be classed as 'PvP' at all. It should be classed as 'joke' more than anything lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ukita Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) What the ****, I'll never understand this. Really, I don't get it. Why penalize people that want to leave your fail Warzone? Time to grow up, because you can't always leave everything because it isn't going your way. I've never left a warzone before it's ended, so should I suddenly be rewarded because I took the loss for some ***** that didn't want that mark on their nonexistent profile? Edited February 1, 2012 by Ukita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Your ideas are based mainly on what you have experienced success in and want to replicate here - that's human nature. Having said that? This is a game and I'd rather eat my own hat than to play WoW 2. So I say fark arenas, fix the server imbalances and give us a real reason to world pvp...other than a new piece of loot thanks. As for the OP, I'd suggest going back to WoW and trying for 'Glad' title number 6. Funny how some think that WoW Arenas should be classed as 'PvP' at all. It should be classed as 'joke' more than anything lol. Did a WOW player pick on you as a kid or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bopper Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have mentioned this before but if they want to penalise leaving a warfront with a deserter buff, they need to stop putting people in games that have already started. They need to let people select what warfront they want to play in and not decide for them. The lvls of warfronts at least should be something like 11-29- 30-49 and then 50's. 49's vs 11's is silly. It should be broken up more than that but at least broken into these divisions. Games should not be formed unless there is even people each side. I agree with the OP on all the other stuff even the deserter buff but with the above proviso. I do not like the concept of having all these abilities and then it being negated by one ability that shunts you off a cliff or whatever, but i have done it myself and it is fun so not that dirty on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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