shucksy Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Basically I've come to the conclusion that AP kind of sucks for sustained dps and I no longer even use it during PVE, the same with IR. If someone feels I'm mistaken here feel free to correct me, I haven't attempted to crunch the numbers or anything. Anyway, assuming that I'm correct and AP has little to no use in a pve context then one could take the +9% Aim talent and increased damage on Ion Pulse instead, I'm not sure how helpful 9% Aim actually is, but surely it's substantial? This seems to be the optimum 'pve dps' route. Anyway my question to players is, do you feel that AP is an essential part of an assault pvp build? I certainly always open with it if approaching targets from range and use it if I think the target is about to pop an escape skill, but if I'm already within 10m I usually omit it and just use SS/IP/HiB. I'm going to be trying out http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfhMbdGhM.1 today in PVP and see how it feels, but I'd like the input of others also as I'm a notorious respec addict having already spent over a million credits on respecs and it's easier to 'stick' to a build if it's less of a 'unique snowflake'. Edit: Changes caused by +9% Aim talent: 1250 Aim +8.63% crit chance +250 damage bonus HiB 1288 - 1475 Ion Pulse 850 - 922 1363 Aim +9.27% crit chance +272.5 damage bonus HiB 1333 - 1521 Ion Pulse 877 - 949 Makes me doubt the usefulness of the Aim talent after all! Edited January 30, 2012 by shucksy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogmar Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 troll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakmonster Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 People have reported varying results with Assault Plastique. Some find it invaluable, others claim that sticky grenade does pretty much the same thing without the talent point investment (less damage, of course). On the other hand, a percentage increase to your main stat is always good, especially since the talent's value will increase as your gear improves and you get more +Aim gear. The changes you listed seemed to be quite substantial (to me, at least), and I would definitely go for the 9% Aim talent over AP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shucksy Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) No not a troll:D But after actually seeing the increases from 9% Aim... it sucks, I expected more :< Edited January 31, 2012 by shucksy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NomineImperator Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 For one talent point it is perhaps my most valuable talent, personally. Is it better to take if you want to maximize your damage output 100% /powerbuild? Nah. But at 1 point, this talent makes me laugh, fulfills almost all my 2.5k crits in Warzones, and did I mention it's just 1 point? That's 3% aim, or 2% elemental damage, in my build. 2/8/31 is my build, and anywhere else I could put that ONE point would give me a minor increase in overall damage, but as I said, I like Assault Plastique for more than simply the damage. It's funny looking, makes an amusing noise, makes healers crap their pants when that hits at the same time as a HIP and a stockstrike, followed by another HIP. Is it necessary? Not by a long shot. Do I love it? Hell yeah. Just my 2c. Again, stressing that it is not necessary, but at 1 point it's hardly a build-crippling expenditure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shucksy Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) For one talent point it is perhaps my most valuable talent, personally. Is it better to take if you want to maximize your damage output 100% /powerbuild? Nah. But at 1 point, this talent makes me laugh, fulfills almost all my 2.5k crits in Warzones, and did I mention it's just 1 point? That's 3% aim, or 2% elemental damage, in my build. 2/8/31 is my build, and anywhere else I could put that ONE point would give me a minor increase in overall damage, but as I said, I like Assault Plastique for more than simply the damage. It's funny looking, makes an amusing noise, makes healers crap their pants when that hits at the same time as a HIP and a stockstrike, followed by another HIP. Is it necessary? Not by a long shot. Do I love it? Hell yeah. Just my 2c. Again, stressing that it is not necessary, but at 1 point it's hardly a build-crippling expenditure. The problem is that you have to spend 31 points in the Assault tree, when all the other good stuff is done by 25 points =/ Edited January 31, 2012 by shucksy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I found AP not worth it from my testing. I perhaps could of timed the burst better and made more use out of its extra punch, but I can do similarly with sticky grenade and spend points elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aRtFuL Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 AP for Assault is absolutely essential if you build your stats base on burst and quick finish from my experience. Ion pulse, HiB and Stockstrike alone just isn't bursty enough and if your job is to target a healer there is no way you can get ahead on them healing themselves without running out of ammo, even if you manage to interrupt 80% of their heals. AP timing it's explosion with stockstrike or HiB is an absolute killer. You can easily cause over 7k of damage in that 1 combo if you time it properly (pop 25% crit increase, pop pvp relic, AP lands for 3k+, Stockstrike lands for 2.7k, HiB lands for maybe around 2k). After that, 2 more ion pulse (because your crits are still in effect) or 1 ion cannon will probably finish them off (since they would already have DoTs on them as well because you would've started with Incendiary Rounds). I tried moving specs around to without AP, can't achieve the same effect at all if your stats are focused on having high crit % and crit damage. If your stats are focused on survivability, then I guess AP will be more pointless for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I would say it comes down to your preferred playstyle and would argue that in a pvp setting that the real decision for a heavy Assault spec (more than 18 points) should be whether you want the extra burst of Assault Plastique or the extra control of Frontline Defense (Tactics). On the one hand you have the ability to dish out very powerful controlled burst and on the other hand a 6 sec interrupt makes healers and casters cry in frustration. Of course those are just my two preferred playstyles. People are having great success with a number of variations of the Assault build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironzerg Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 IOn the one hand you have the ability to dish out very powerful controlled burst and on the other hand a 6 sec interrupt makes healers and casters cry in frustration. You know what really makes casters and healers cry? Killing them. AP burst FTW. If you're going for damage in PvP, 31 points in Assault is beastly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmasterub Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I believe OPs question was about AP usefulness in pve. In pvp its obviously essential for burst. for pve I prefer a tactics/assault hybrid spec running high energy cell so I can keep gut and IR running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironzerg Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I believe OPs question was about AP usefulness in pve. In pvp its obviously essential for burst. for pve I prefer a tactics/assault hybrid spec running high energy cell so I can keep gut and IR running. Thread title: "Assault Plastique - essential for assault pvp?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmasterub Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If you read the post all he talks about is pve sustained damage. In the first paragraph he says AP is defacto for pvp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironzerg Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Anyway my question to players is, do you feel that AP is an essential part of an assault pvp build? I'm not sure if you're responding to the correct thread. That's his question. You saw my answer. It's absolutely essential to an assualt PvP build, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhappyjoy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Assault Plastique is absolutely essential for pvp. It is burst damage. I'm running 8/2/31. I have the 9% increased Aim. I've read that at end game 9% aim will add about 3-4% damage. I don't know if that is accurate or not; however, when you start hitting diminishing returns on crit and surge you are still probably far away from diminishing returns on the way aim adds to your crit and damage. By speccing 8/2/31 I give up some damage on ion pulse and 3% crit. However, I don't really care about buffing Ion Pulse damage by itself - why - because ion pulse is not my burst damage. I want my burst damage to be stronger. Crit + Surge + Assault Plastique = like 1.5k more burst to a target. Why would I want to have stickynade - which will break cc and not hit as hard. Why would I want Gut - it's a huge ammo hog and it isn't burst. One of the earlier posters had it totally right - we are a burst class - you pop your relic and battle focus you start with IR then AP then HIB then Stockstrike (AP goes off) then IP or HIB. If you crit more than 50 percent of those attacks (which you should) you just did 10k damage to the target in 3 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shucksy Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I believe OPs question was about AP usefulness in pve. In pvp its obviously essential for burst. for pve I prefer a tactics/assault hybrid spec running high energy cell so I can keep gut and IR running. No, it's clear that AP and IR have no place in PVE. The question was: Do you feel naked without AP in pvp? I was hoping I could max out PVE dps while still feeling comfortable in pvp, and was wondering how others felt about it. I've returned to taking AP now after playing 20~ WZs without it, while I was still able to hit the same damage figures, like a lot of others I started to miss the burst damage pressure, especially against healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthSD Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I was surprised that sticky grenade does damage to all nearby mobs but assault plastique doesn't. Makes it do less damage in a lot of circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I had AP for some time and almost exclusively PVP. I didn't find its burst anything to write home about vis a vis sticky grenade. For me, it didn't do enough incremental damage to that one target to warrant the point spend. I also often prefer to pop a sticky grenade to give a delayed interrupt when defending things like Voidstar doors. Yes, it's a combination of various things such as DOTS, but sticky is also part of that. I find it hard to believe that people are using words like "essential" when its more "a bit better on one target but costs you a lot of points". Edited January 31, 2012 by Fafryd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironzerg Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, it's clear there are two kinds of PvPers, when it comes to AP vs Sticky. The ones who understand the importance maximizing burst damage and the ones who enjoy waiting to respawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ururururu Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 AP is significantly important in your main burst rotation. Test the two specs yourself in a duel. Also, crit values vs not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryowolf Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, it's clear there are two kinds of PvPers, when it comes to AP vs Sticky. The ones who understand the importance maximizing burst damage and the ones who enjoy waiting to respawn. AP is not the most important tool in an Assault spec's kit. Nor does it even need to be in the toolbox for the spec to be effective in PvP. I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the skill though. It is good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, it's clear there are two kinds of PvPers, when it comes to AP vs Sticky. The ones who understand the importance maximizing burst damage and the ones who enjoy waiting to respawn. Yes because getting access to things like HTL, 6 second interrupts, Storm and so on clearly just mean you will die over and over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironzerg Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) *shrug* To each his own, no point in arguing. The trend is tanking right now, with DPS being all but ridiculed. I switched from shield spec -> hybrid -> full DPS and will never go back. It's hard to express how much damage and burts you are giving up by picking up SS, HTL, etc. for the perception that you're more survivable. The more I play, the more I'm begining to see PvP-Tanking as a trap. The most effective way to shut down a healer, protect your own healer or hold a control point is to kill the other player. EDIT: Case in point...taking 2 seconds off Riot Strike. The reason you need to interrupt more is because you're not killing fast enough. You HAVE to interrupt every single heal or tracer missile, because you damage is so low, you don't stand a chance if you can't. Edited February 1, 2012 by ironzerg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shucksy Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 *shrug* To each his own, no point in arguing. The trend is tanking right now, with DPS being all but ridiculed. I switched from shield spec -> hybrid -> full DPS and will never go back. It's hard to express how much damage and burts you are giving up by picking up SS, HTL, etc. for the perception that you're more survivable. The more I play, the more I'm begining to see PvP-Tanking as a trap. The most effective way to shut down a healer, protect your own healer or hold a control point is to kill the other player. EDIT: Case in point...taking 2 seconds off Riot Strike. The reason you need to interrupt more is because you're not killing fast enough. You HAVE to interrupt every single heal or tracer missile, because you damage is so low, you don't stand a chance if you can't. Burst and DPS are two different things. Using AP when you're under 10m lowers your dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajind Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Burst and DPS are two different things. Using AP when you're under 10m lowers your dps. i could be wrong, but i remember AP hitting for more then my ion pulse edit: sorry this is based on pve experiance, i could see the argument for not using it, mainly because you want damage now, not in 5 seconds. Edited February 1, 2012 by kajind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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