Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[PoPPaDoM]

Generally and Most popular. They even have a definition on WoWWiki.

 

Wrong, was around well before WoW.

 

 

I was in the group, that's all that matters.

 

Yes and you get to roll for you, when your pets in the group it's disco.

 

 

But, but, you don't even know me.

 

You've shown enough of your colors for me to be pretty sure that I don't want to know you.

 

My group of a holes? But, but, I've never grouped with you.

 

And you never will, because I don't group with people who have your attitude.

[Halinalle]

Glad you agree with me!

 

Ready to help each other get an equal chance to win the gear we value the most?

 

Let's do this!!

 

*helps you run the FP*

 

Like I said before: Don't be so sure I will help you if there is someone else who needs my helps and actually plays as part of the group. FPs aren't for soloing. MMOs aren't for soloing.

[crica]

Y'all know what? This may be a generational issue.

 

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

 

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

 

I feel like the current RL generation, for the most part, is out for self. They feel like they are special just for being born and its their right to take, take, take. Unfortunately, this sense of narcissism has carried over into SWTOR.

 

 

Nope, I am out for "everyone who helps to run the FP gets an equal chance to win the fruits of their labors that they personally value the most".

 

I am out for "group co-operation for mutual gain as defined by each individual in the group."

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Creed_Buhallin]

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

Sorry, but no.

 

Eldren has been around since Meridian. I started in UO. This is baseless, wrong, and just insulting on so many levels I don't know what to say about it.

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

You obviously aren't understanding the discussion over entitlement. Nobody's doing anything "just because they can" - they're saying "I was here. I worked just as hard as you did for this, I'll decide for myself whether or not I take an equal shot at the rewards or just give them to you." The other side says "I want to make sure I get this, so you can't have it."

I feel like the current RL generation, for the most part, is out for self. They feel like they are special just for being born and its their right to take, take, take. Unfortunately, this sense of narcissism has carried over into SWTOR.

And GET OFF MY LAWN!

[Setanian]

Y'all know what? This may be a generational issue.

 

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

 

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

 

I feel like the current RL generation, for the most part, is out for self. They feel like they are special just for being born and its their right to take, take, take. Unfortunately, this sense of narcissism has carried over into SWTOR.

 

I hate to break it to you, but I've been online since before there was a public internet, so you're just wrong. If anything has carried over into SW;ToR, it's the belief by some that;

 

#1 They have some right to dictate to others how they roll

#2 They already own the loot before they won it.

[ferroz]

For most of the people opposite you in this group, that's perfectly fine. If you decide you need something enough to roll on it, it's not my job to decide why - I trust you to make the decision for your own character. The entire POINT of this debate is that those of us on this side of it won't try and tell you what you can need on - we certainly aren't going to whine if you win it. I'll congratulate you and move on.

It's because they're projecting their own entitlement to loot onto other people. They just can't bring them to understand that some people don't feel entitled to anything other than a roll, so they assume that we'll get bent out of shape if they happen to win something we wanted.

[ShamDeluxe]

Look, deny all you want, but when the kid with "only child syndrome" groups with you and rolls need on everything, you will see the light.

[Setanian]

Yes and you get to roll for you, when your pets in the group it's disco.

 

And what I do with what I win, is my business. Not yours.

[Galbatorrix]

If the item is something that you are going to be upset over not winning, you should not be pressing greed.

 

 

 

That's not the point. The point is, people say everyone rolling need is "fair". well, since most people follow a certain social etiquette in games like this, most people are going to pass on loot that would better serve someone else's PC. Which gives people who need for appearance and companions an unfair advantage. Not to mention the fact that the first person may have passed on everything in that entire dungeon so far, in an effort to help people that needed the loot more than they did and and then end up losing their Aim gear to the sage because their companion can use it.

 

Honestly, either you follow a moral code or you don't. In my experience, most do.. so, those of you that think needing on what ever you want for personal "solo play" gain at the expense of someone else's PC, you're going to hear about it. Whether you like it or not.

[ferroz]

I hate to break it to you, but I've been online since before there was a public internet, so you're just wrong.

Likewise. I used usenet and fidonet all the way back in the 80s.

 

NBG wasn't established in early mmo. It's quite a bit more recent than that.

 

 

Y'all know what? This may be a generational issue.

 

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

No, that's not really likely.

 

Old school mmos didn't have NBG established as a standard looting rule. There were lots of EQ servers where that wasn't the rule, and even more where it wasn't uncommon to have groups that weren't using NBG even on servers where many of the groups used it.

 

Nor is the idea that you're going to help people get gear at odds with "I'll need on anything I choose to" ... the latter is just a statement that we're not going to adhere to your loot priorities just because you insist that they're the correct ones.

 

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up.

Well, that's because the whole idea of NBG looting is about the idea that you are entitled to loot over other people; so at the root, the issue is over people who have entitlement issues trying to dictate to others what they are and aren't allowed to roll on. Edited February 1, 2012 by ferroz

[Irusan]

Y'all know what? This may be a generational issue.

 

I think old school players (people who have played MMOs for the past 8-10 years) are wired different because we are part of a different gaming and RL generation. We are more inclined to think of the betterment of people other than ourselves. We actually take into consideration the guy in our group with crappy gear rather than trying to go for self at all costs.

 

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

 

I feel like the current RL generation, for the most part, is out for self. They feel like they are special just for being born and its their right to take, take, take. Unfortunately, this sense of narcissism has carried over into SWTOR.

 

+1

 

But Im sure we are getting ready to hear how these kids are not kids but, in fact, invented the internet and MMOs. I told you guys, run from this thread while your sanity is still intact.

[ShamDeluxe]

It'2 2012 and we are having a 70+ page discussion on Need vs Greed. Surely you have to recognize that a different type of player is out there today. It's not like the rules and established norms have suddenly changed.

[ferroz]

It'2 2012 and we are having a 70+ page discussion on Need vs Greed.

Actually, this thread has been restarted for hitting the 1000 post limit 4 or 5 times, at least.

[Creed_Buhallin]

That's not the point. The point is, people say everyone rolling need is "fair". well, since most people follow a certain social etiquette in games like this, most people are going to pass on loot that would better serve someone else's PC. Which gives people who need for appearance and companions an unfair advantage. Not to mention the fact that the first person may have passed on everything in that entire dungeon so far, in an effort to help people that needed the loot more than they did and and then end up losing their Aim gear to the sage because their companion can use it.

And it all comes back to being afraid someone is going to end up with more cookies than you are.

 

For each item you want, there's an even chance for everyone who wants it to get it. If you expect that everyone will come out even, you should be distributing via round robin, or setting up DKP for every group you run.

 

If something drops that I can use, whether you approve of that use or not, that's what the "need" button is for. You're trying to maximize your ability to get what you want by telling people they can only want things that you approve of them wanting. Too bad. At best, it's emotional blackmail. You throw in threats to kick people from groups and smear them, and it's outright extortion.

[Eldren]

That's not the point. The point is, people say everyone rolling need is "fair". well, since most people follow a certain social etiquette in games like this, most people are going to pass on loot that would better serve someone else's PC. Which gives people who need for appearance and companions an unfair advantage. Not to mention the fact that the first person may have passed on everything in that entire dungeon so far, in an effort to help people that needed the loot more than they did and and then end up losing their Aim gear to the sage because their companion can use it.

 

Honestly, either you follow a moral code or you don't. In my experience, most do.. so, those of you that think needing on what ever you want for personal "solo play" gain at the expense of someone else's PC, you're going to hear about it. Whether you like it or not.

 

The issue is, many people follow different moral codes, particularly when in a relatively anonymous environment like an MMO. Though I still question where you get your assertion that "most" people will pass on something that would better serve someone else's character. It's been repeated several times, with examples, that companions are a vital part of the leveling experience, and we all know they require upgrades to remain viable in level-appropriate content. The quality of upgrades is open to discussion, but ultimately up to each individual player.

 

If someone chooses to pass on things and someone else takes it, the person who passed has no reason to be upset: they passed, that means they were stating they didn't want it. The person who chose Greed when someone else chose Need has no reason to complain: they chose a lower priority roll they fully realized someone could trump. If they were prone to be upset about someone else getting something, it would have made more sense to choose Need so they had an equal chance at getting the item.

[crica]

you follow a moral code or you don't.

 

You follow a "co-operative group mutual gain decided by each individual" code or you don't.

 

See what I did there?

 

Your argument just failed.

 

You can not narrow this to black and white beyond - "either you play by the default group loot rules of the game or you speak up and ask if everyone in the group minds if they are changed to what you prefer them to be."

Edited February 1, 2012 by crica

[Creed_Buhallin]

But Im sure we are getting ready to hear how these kids are not kids but, in fact, invented the internet and MMOs. I told you guys, run from this thread while your sanity is still intact.

So you've got nothing left but calling people liars about their background? This is what passes for decent, strong debate points on your side?

[sjmc]

Skimming through this thread, I have noticed that the word "entitled" and different ways of discussing ENTITLEMENT keep coming up. It does not escape me that in RL currently this same idea of ENTITLEMENT keeps coming up. People doing stuff "just because they can."

 

People seem to mean different things when talking about entitlement. I consider myself entitled to roll on anything that drops because I was part of the group that killed the mob. That is all I am entitled to.

 

I may choose to not roll on things that I don't want (press Greed), in order that others can have a higher chance. In fact, this is what I usually do. If I am not planning to use the item, I am not going to roll need on it. Nonetheless, I am "entitled" to roll on it if I choose to.

 

I am not entitled to be guaranteed any particular item. I am just entitled to roll on each item.

 

Everyone deserves a fair chance to acquire any loot they wish. When more than one person wants the loot, the dice get to decide (which is fair).

 

"Fair Chance" is not the same as "Guarantee".

[Halinalle]

If something drops that I can use, whether you approve of that use or not, that's what the "need" button is for. You're trying to maximize your ability to get what you want by telling people they can only want things that you approve of them wanting. Too bad. At best, it's emotional blackmail. You throw in threats to kick people from groups and smear them, and it's outright extortion.

 

As a heavy armor user I can use light/medium/heavy. Do you know why I'm not running around in light armor?

 

Hint: There is very simple reaon for that.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Halinalle

[ferroz]

As a heavy armor user I can use light/medium/heavy. Do you know why I'm not running around in light armor?

 

Hint: There is very simple reaon for that.

because you're a tank?

[Setanian]

Sorry I nearly spilt my coffee when I read that.. I bet you want to take your ball home too. Edited February 1, 2012 by Trineda
removed quote

[Sephendrine]

I think they should do away with the entire need/greed mechanic. Instead just have a roll button for everything that drops, no matter what it is. Then if some other player wants it, they could offer to buy it from whoever won it. If they didn't want to sell, for whatever reason, then just wait for the next run. Sooner or later you'll get what you want.

 

The whole need/greed thing just feeds the immaturity that abounds. My own feeling about it is, I really don't have this panic state concerning gear. I don't need to have something now. I think games like WoW, which are essentially epic gear vending machines, have created a whole slew of gamers who get stressed out over gear. I've seen people raise a fuss over a piece of gear, and then a week later raise the same fuss about a different piece of gear for the same slot that maybe has a +1 additional stat of some kind. Stressing about gear turns people into monsters.

 

I think they should take a stand against it all and be daring and just dump the whole outdated idea.

[Creed_Buhallin]

As a heavy armor user I can use light/medium/heavy. Do you know why I'm not running around in light armor?

 

Hint: There is very simple reaon for that.

And your point is...?

 

If a piece of medium orange armor drops with Str in it, you can most certainly make use of that. If a piece of orange heavy armor drops with Aim in it drops, and you like the look, you can most certainly make use of it. If you want to make your Juggernaut look like a Bounty Hunter, or vice versa, you certainly can do that.

 

But even then, it's personal - we've got a guild on my server dedicated to running around entirely in various slave girl outfits. Yes, even the tanks. I wouldn't do it, but I admire their dedication, and I'm certainly not going to tell them they're wrong as long as we still manage to clear the content.

[PoPPaDoM]

Majority? Link me to your statistics to back up that assertion?

 

Nah... we both know it's true.

[ferroz]

The "I want it. Doesn't matter if I can't use it." attitude.

No, that doesn't imply that he's telling anyone to pass.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that what you have in quotes is not something that he's said...

 

To be accurate, it'd be something like "I want it. Doesn't matter if you think you are entitled to have it without a roll." or "I want it. Doesn't matter if my use of it matches the loot priorities dictated by your playstyle or not."