crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) he was "ENTITLED" to it? If the default group loot rules were not changed by the group before the run (IE: no one spoke up stating they did not want to use them or be in a group that will be using them), yes, he was entitled to an equal chance to win it along with everyone else since he and everyone else helped make it drop. Or do you not think you earn the right to have an equal chance to win whatever you help make drop if the default group loot rules are not changed by the group before the run? Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Oh my friend....prepare to be jumped on with both feet in this thread. Don't you know even though that guy didn't "NEED" that piece of gear, he was "ENTITLED" to it? I am assuming you and I are defining "need" as in an item that provides your character with an upgrade. The definition you are suppossed to accept is "need for any reason at all, even if its to strip out a mod you could buy for 2 commendations and scrap the rest, or it looks good, or companion might use it while on a slicing mission". "And stop sighing so much." : Zapp Brannigan There's more to need in this particular game than a stat upgrade. With the presence of orange items that are purely for aesthetics and companions who use player gear, each given piece has a much wider use than items in previous games have. As a result, each piece can more justifiably have Need rolled for it in a greater number of scenarios. It's fine if you personally prioritize statistics over everything else, but that doesn't obligate others to play the game using your criteria. If someone wants to prioritize appearance, they're perfectly justified in doing so. It doesn't matter if you can buy something elsewhere, what matters is that it dropped there for you, and getting it that way is as valid as spending commendations on it. You don't get to choose how other players gear their characters or companions, or even how they acquire what they gear them with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Why should I seek approval from anyone to do what I am already entitled to do? Is it not up to the people imposing their "made up" conditions to explicitly state that's what they intent to do? To free them from fear. If they won't be afraid, they won't see you as a threat to their part of the loot. It's not about seeking approval. If you go with group who doesn't care about making loot rules (let's the dice decide) then you don't need to ask. Nothing complicated. Yes, Roll/Pass is less flexible than NBG. It's also simpler, and I maintain a simpler system is ultimately better. The source of a lot of contention with NBG is differing priorities of rolling, and then complaints over someone choosing a priority another felt they shouldn't have chosen. I am not fine with trading flexibility for simplicity (although I do understand your point). As a communicative player I think it's fault of those who doesn't communicate to raise the problem of loot rules. If they start communicating with the group they will not raise complaints about looting rules because they will be informed about them before entering the flashpoint and stay (if they see them as fine) or find another group, more suiting their loot viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) If you go with group who doesn't care about making loot rules (let's the dice decide) then you don't need to ask. Erm, the default group loot rules are what IS used in a group UNLESS players speak up about any changes/amendments they want. There is no need for players to ask if the group is going to use the default group loot rules when they join a group. The need to ask about loot rules only arises if the player wants the default loot rules to be changed/amended from the default. That is like telling people who want to play baseball that they need to make sure to ask the team when they join it if the team is going to use the default baseball rules. The default rules ARE used in a game UNLESS people speak up about wanting to use DIFFERENT rules. Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It may help the discussion if someone who has played one of the "previous" games where NBG developed could give us some examples of items for that game that you could use (ie not give/sell to another character) but would not qualify for pressing "need". In WOW, you have two specs. Normally, each spec uses different attributes. You can also transmogrify your weapons and armor with other weapons and armor to transfer the appearance. So, in essence, just like with TOR, a Paladin who uses STR could need on an Agility mace for appearance sake or he could need on an item meant for his offspec. Just like in this game, it happens, but it's still widely considered a douche move and you'll normally get kicked from a group for doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Erm, the default group loot rules are what IS used in a group UNLESS players speak up about any changes/amendments they want. What default group loot rules? Need, greed and pass? I don't see it as loot rules. Only as means to choose your priorities during the decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) What default group loot rules? Need, greed and pass? I don't see it as loot rules. Only as means to choose your priorities during the decision making. Which IS the rule - each individual player sets their OWN loot priority for THEMSELVES, and not for anyone else. Want that, the default group loot rule, to be changed/amended when you join a group? Speak up and ask if the other players would like to use your change/amendment while you are in the group. Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccaroth Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 crica - I see we have different names for the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) To every selfish looter out there: I can run FP with you if you want, but if you ever get in trouble don't be so sure I will help you if there is someone else in the group that needs my help more. You get 100% chance to get all gear so you can easily handle the situation. In group you have to think about performance as a group not your companion's stats or profit. Edited February 1, 2012 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 crica - I see we have different names for the same thing. Sorry, I have no idea what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irusan Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 There's more to need in this particular game than a stat upgrade. With the presence of orange items that are purely for aesthetics and companions who use player gear, each given piece has a much wider use than items in previous games have. As a result, each piece can more justifiably have Need rolled for it in a greater number of scenarios. It's fine if you personally prioritize statistics over everything else, but that doesn't obligate others to play the game using your criteria. If someone wants to prioritize appearance, they're perfectly justified in doing so. It doesn't matter if you can buy something elsewhere, what matters is that it dropped there for you, and getting it that way is as valid as spending commendations on it. You don't get to choose how other players gear their characters or companions, or even how they acquire what they gear them with. You are WAY wrong. I might help them get one piece of gear for their companions or alts or their buddies toon, but I promise you it would be the first and the last, so I hope that one piece of ill-gotten gear serves them well. (The exception is the usual, if nobody in group can use and everyone approves of the need roll, then sure, have it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) You are WAY wrong. I might help them get one piece of gear for their companions or alts or their buddies toon, but I promise you it would be the first and the last, so I hope that one piece of ill-gotten gear serves them well. (The exception is the usual, if nobody in group can use and everyone approves of the need roll, then sure, have it.)Instead of dictating what everyone had better do with loot, try asking folks if they mind helping you get the loot you want. More flies with honey... ya know? Edited February 1, 2012 by crica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 To free them from fear. If they won't be afraid, they won't see you as a threat to their part of the loot. It's not about seeking approval. If you go with group who doesn't care about making loot rules (let's the dice decide) then you don't need to ask. Nothing complicated. I am not fine with trading flexibility for simplicity (although I do understand your point). As a communicative player I think it's fault of those who doesn't communicate to raise the problem of loot rules. If they start communicating with the group they will not raise complaints about looting rules because they will be informed about them before entering the flashpoint and stay (if they see them as fine) or find another group, more suiting their loot viewpoint. There is no "their part" of the loot. There is what they won, and what they didn't. Soon as people understand that, the easier it will be for them to accept, that they just do not own or have any say on, loot they did not win. The problem is people see loot as their's or not before the roll has even begun. And it is the huge failing point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 There is no "their part" of the loot. There is what they won, and what they didn't. Soon as people understand that, the easier it will be for them to accept, that they just do not own or have any say on, loot they did not win. The problem is people see loot as their's or not before the roll has even begun. And it is the huge failing point. So why you force everyone else to click "Pass" then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So why you force everyone else to click "Pass" then? Where did I ever say I force anyone to click anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldren Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So why you force everyone else to click "Pass" then? No one's forcing anyone to do anything, which is the point Setanian and I are trying to make: we don't want others forcing us to roll in a certain way, we don't want to force others to roll in a certain way. We want people free to roll how they personally choose, letting the dice fall where they may, and congratulating the winner as we move on with the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Where did I ever say I force anyone to click anything? The "I want it. Doesn't matter if I can't use it." attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmc Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The "I want it. Doesn't matter if I can't use it." attitude. I think that's what they call a "strawman". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatboylgn Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Still does not imply telling anyone to Pass on anything. I believe you want to ask that of the "social contract" folks as they will be the ones asking why you aren't passing on drops you want because it is a better upgrade for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crica Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The "I want it. Doesn't matter if I can't use it." attitude. It is a "I helped and earned the right to have an equal claim to the fruits of my labor" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setanian Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The "I want it. Doesn't matter if I can't use it." attitude. Hang on a second. You implied I stated something, which I did not. I called you on it, and you come up with some straw-brained idea that in you opinion my attitude implied it? If you want to debate, fine, but do it with facts and logic, not this wandering around the bush picking whichever flower suits your argument. I seriously think you are trying to just post stuff to annoy people. You won't annoy me though, , way too wise to your antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) It is a "I helped and earned the right to have an equal claim to the fruits of my labor" attitude. How it's equal if you choose Greed or RE and everyone else chooses Need? Edited February 1, 2012 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmc Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) If you didn't want it, it shouldn't bother you that someone else won it. EDIT: If it is a concern that you aren't getting enough loot to sell because everyone is pressing need everytime, then you might need to start pressing need yourself (in those situations). Edited February 1, 2012 by sjmc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racsofp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I've learned two things from these multiple threads spanning hundreds of pages. 1) People think their idea is the one true way. Rather than discuss loot rules as a group, most people would rather just assume everyone is on board with their "one true way" and get bent afterwards when they realize other people have different ideas. Solution: Rather than discuss loot rules with people you are actually grouped with, the answer seems to be run to the forums to get comforted by like minded people on other servers you will never gorup with. 2) This game needs multiple loot rule options. Need/Greed, Roll/Pass, etc. Need/greed for groups filled with people who trust each other, roll/pass for PUGs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 EDIT: If it is a concern that you aren't getting enough loot to sell because everyone is pressing need everytime, then you might need to start pressing need yourself (in those situations). You can only think about profit if you're in group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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