Please, Don't Roll on Items for Another Class in Your Team

[Creed_Buhallin]

So do I ..which is why I do lot of farming for mats and build my own gear. Unless it's something very specific drops that I've been looking for ..it's all just gravy

 

I could take just about everything you wrote there and use it to support my position.

Only if you dictate that certain ways of acquiring items are unacceptable. A lot of people have actually done this throughout the discussion: "You can't roll need for a companion in a Flashpoint, you can gear them solo!"

 

You could certainly claim it, but that wouldn't make it valid. It's a "You're playing wrong" argument, which is invalid on its face. More and more I'm thinking that's the core of this disagreement from your side, if not yours personally - people who play solo, or with companions, or value appearance over stats, are just playing wrong, and therefore their needs are inferior and don't actually qualify as "needs". Galb has explicitly said as much, as have numerous others.

 

And honestly, if that's the core of someone's argument, then they can go take a flying leap. You can play however you want, but I'm not about to let you dictate to me or my family how we play. I've dealt with people like that since the very beginning of MMOs, and I think they're nothing but a horribly destructive drain on the community.

You say I can't handle it, and I say you're just afraid to lose the edge your more liberal definition provides you.

What edge would that be? I only roll on stuff I need. I expect you to do the same, and will actively encourage it. If I roll on something for stats and you pass on it because someone in the last run screamed at you for that, I'll tell you to roll on whatever you want. I'm not sure how that's consistent with me trying to get some mythical edge. I don't keep score on who gets more loot on a run, unlike Galb, who seems very, VERY concerned about it.

 

Over and over again your side of this argument tries to portray the opposite side as nothing but a bunch of greedy gits who will roll on everything. NOBODY in this debate has actually said that we'd do that. Many have laid out exactly what they would roll on, and all of us have said explicitly on multiple occasions that we'd encourage people to roll by the same standards - what they believe they could use. How is that an edge?

[ferroz]

Unfortunately it seems you are here solely to argue and promote your way of thinking, not to engage in an intellectual, logical discourse.

What are you talking about?

 

you asked for preference. I gave it. Beyond that, I'm pointing out that you're oversimplifying so much that no actual meaningful conclusion can be drawn from the scenarios you're laying out.

 

Have a nice night. If you care to engage the argument I'm making, one that is based in logic, with a very few simple assumptions, then I'll be happy to respond to you further.

You're vastly oversimplifying the chances at various pieces of loot.

 

Assuming an even distribution of items is a gross oversimplification; that alone is enough to make any conclusion you're drawing about the relative values of the loot systems invalid.

[Setanian]

"Too many variables..."

 

There are many variables, indeed. But all other things being equal, which loot system would you rather have those players come from? I would have assumed you would take that as a given if you were engaged in good faith in this discussion.

 

The answer again, is clearly A. It is a more efficient distribution of loot for grouping.

 

Now, let's take it a step further.

 

Your point is more than valid - your primary objective and priority is solo play. You want to do as much output as you possibly can between you and your companion.

 

Here is the following hypothetical loot for a 4 man group with 4 bosses.

 

1 Aim piece of gear

1 Str piece of gear

1 Willp piece of gear

1 Cunn piece of gear

 

You have one of each class in your group. Under method A you receive 1 upgrade for your character EVERY TIME when this loot drops.

 

Now let's look at it under method B, when everyone is rolling on every piece, since everyone can use all the gear for at least one of their companions.

 

The expected value of the loot you will receive is as follows:

 

.25 of a Aim piece of gear

.25 of a Str piece of gear

.25 of a Willp piece of gear

.25 of a Cunn piece of gear

 

Now, and hopefully you've followed this far, if you assume that an upgrade to YOU is more

beneficial than an upgrade to YOUR COMPANION, then on average, you, as a character/companion duo, are worse off under Method B.

 

Again, it won't always be the case, but all things being equal, on average, an upgrade to your character is more valuable than an upgrade to your companion. This is true.

 

Follow the logic.

 

YOU YOURSELF ARE WORSE OFF UNDER METHOD B.

 

This is not true. If we go with your scenario, I will roll need on whichever piece equates to my class. Again, in your scenario, the other 3 should pass, they by giving it to me.

 

Going with the 'need' what you 'need'. And assuming the other 3 also do the same, it is indeterminable what the loot distribution will be.

 

Again, If I go with your method, and everyone is doing the same thing, needing only on their class piece then in fact there is no need for rolls at all. Justh and them to who-ever best suits the piece. And also, you have previously agreed that you each are going to get some loot.

 

It is never like that. I have been in many groups where abiding by the NBG rule and the healer gets the piece he was looking for and suddenly has to go do his homework.

 

You are correct that if we all know each other and have agreed we're staying til it's done, A works best, but in fact is not needed anyway.

 

On a pug, I know no-one, so I'm going to roll whatever best suits my chances of getting loot. And I expect nothingness from anyone else.

 

Yes, it's harsh, but it's also true. Running with guilds will always work better than PuGs.

[Grecanis]

we've had several hundred pages of people doing exactly that...

Nobody's said you cannot roll. They have asked you do dial back your definition of need.

 

They can do that now, without removing the need button.

 

arguably, they HAVE done that implicitly with the design, and people are insisting on adding rules on top of it (and even assuming that they're universal)

 

People have conflicting interpretations of it's implimentation. I'd say that hardly makes it "implicit" ..by my interpretation it means class only.

 

I didn't say that it wasn't, just that it doesn't solve anything.

 

It removes all the differing interpretations and sets us all firmly on the same ground.

 

that's actually quite abusable; it basically gives someone who comes into an instance with friends multiple rolls.

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm in favor of it, since I'm convinced that it fixes more problems than it creates... just that you shouldn't think of that as a problem free addition.

 

I've heard many on your side argue that one can do whatever they want with thier winnings ..I'm glad you approve.

[Halinalle]

What's the point? EQ1 was probably the most successful MMO in the western hemisphere, before Warcraft.

 

EQ1 method of loot rolling was /random! That's it.

 

Shouting. That's why nobody takes you seriously. It indicates something else too but I don't want to go that far yet.

 

Point is that EQ wasn't first.

[universeman]

Wow, I seriously can't even keep up with this thread

 

I will say this, though...nothing we say/do here is going to change the way people play in the game now. The only way things will change is if BW makes a change with the system. Until then, we're all going to be frustrated and angry with each other and the community is never going to get any friendlier.

 

We need BW to realize there is an issue and it's causing a lot of grief in the game when two people have opposite opinions over how the system should be used.

[JediMasterShake]

What are you talking about?

 

you asked for preference. I gave it. Beyond that, I'm pointing out that you're oversimplifying so much that no actual meaningful conclusion can be drawn from the scenarios you're laying out.

 

You're vastly oversimplifying the chances at various pieces of loot.

 

Assuming an even distribution of items is a gross oversimplification; that alone is enough to make any conclusion you're drawing about the relative values of the loot systems invalid.

 

My post was a continuation, you missed the first half. If you read from the beginning, it will make sense to you.

 

Secondly, I simply, but that invalidates nothing. I am merely taking the expected value of each scenario in order to create a situation where we can work with the pieces in a logical fashion. If you disagree with that, I'm not sure I'll care to continue to explain it. You have to use the mean outcomes here. We aren't playing a "what if" game. Imagine we had metrics on every parameter - we want the average.

[Revenaught]

Let's see who cares to engage this scenario:

 

 

Player A, B, C and D plan to run 8 man zones all night (using their companions to full out the rest of the Ops group), culminating in a very, very difficult zone to finish the night. A, B, C and D are all different classes.

 

Throughout the night, which method of loot distribution gives them the BEST chance to complete their very difficult, final zone of the night:

 

A. Personal Need > Companion Need > Greed

B. Need on anything that is an upgrade for you or your companions > Greed

 

 

 

The answer is undoubtedly A.

 

So, the simple fact is, if you wanted to play optimally, if you wanted to achieve, if you wanted to do what is best for the success of your group and for YOU, you would adhere to loot distribution A.

 

If you don't value any of those things, that's ok. But this is WHY people feel strongly about it. Because it is the optimal distribution to ACHIEVE and KILL MORE BOSSES.

 

That is all.

 

 

I might be amendable to that if I never play solo with just my companion for battle assistance. However since I do use my companion outside of group play I would like the chance to gear it up as well.

 

I should add that that does not mean I roll need on anything that drops. But if something falls that would benifit my prefered companion then yeah I would like a shot at it. And I offer you the same opportunity.

[JediMasterShake]

This is not true. If we go with your scenario, I will roll need on whichever piece equates to my class. Again, in your scenario, the other 3 should pass, they by giving it to me.

 

Going with the 'need' what you 'need'. And assuming the other 3 also do the same, it is indeterminable what the loot distribution will be.

 

Again, If I go with your method, and everyone is doing the same thing, needing only on their class piece then in fact there is no need for rolls at all. Justh and them to who-ever best suits the piece. And also, you have previously agreed that you each are going to get some loot.

 

It is never like that. I have been in many groups where abiding by the NBG rule and the healer gets the piece he was looking for and suddenly has to go do his homework.

 

You are correct that if we all know each other and have agreed we're staying til it's done, A works best, but in fact is not needed anyway.

 

On a pug, I know no-one, so I'm going to roll whatever best suits my chances of getting loot. And I expect nothingness from anyone else.

 

Yes, it's harsh, but it's also true. Running with guilds will always work better than PuGs.

 

 

"Going with the 'need' what you 'need'. And assuming the other 3 also do the same, it is indeterminable what the loot distribution will be."

 

No, it isn't. As I wrote: it is the EXPECTED VALUE of the loot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

 

Therefore, on average, you will end up with LESS output from you and your companion under Method B (as I've defined in my previous posts.)

 

A = Player Upgrade

B = Companion Upgrade

 

A > B

A > .25A + .75B

Edited February 2, 2012 by JediMasterShake

[JediMasterShake]

I might be amendable to that if I never play solo with just my companion for battle assistance. However since I do use my companion outside of group play I would like the chance to gear it up as well.

 

I should add that that does not mean I roll need on anything that drops. But if something falls that would benifit my prefered companion then yeah I would like a shot at it. And I offer you the same opportunity.

 

Keep reading into my second post for an explanation of why you and your companion are WORSE off when everyone rolls Need on everything.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Nobody's said you cannot roll. They have asked you do dial back your definition of need.

Eh?

 

"Dial back your definition of need" means "Don't roll". Often accompanied by "If you do, I'll kick you from the group, blacklist you in our guild, and try to make sure you never get a group again."

 

I'm relatively sure I could find plenty of actual explicit quotes of people saying you couldn't roll on something that wasn't just for your class, but that is such a hair-splitting semantic defense it's pretty obvious it means the same thing.

 

Edit: LOL. I just looked up. The THREAD TITLE: "Please, don't roll on items for another class in your team".

 

Yeah, NOBODY'S said you can't roll Unless you assume it's all OK because they said "please" before threatening to kick you out of the group.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Creed_Buhallin

[Souvarr]

Let's see who cares to engage this scenario:

 

 

Player A, B, C and D plan to run 8 man zones all night (using their companions to full out the rest of the Ops group), culminating in a very, very difficult zone to finish the night. A, B, C and D are all different classes.

 

Throughout the night, which method of loot distribution gives them the BEST chance to complete their very difficult, final zone of the night:

 

A. Personal Need > Companion Need > Greed

B. Need on anything that is an upgrade for you or your companions > Greed

 

 

 

The answer is undoubtedly A.

 

So, the simple fact is, if you wanted to play optimally, if you wanted to achieve, if you wanted to do what is best for the success of your group and for YOU, you would adhere to loot distribution A.

 

If you don't value any of those things, that's ok. But this is WHY people feel strongly about it. Because it is the optimal distribution to ACHIEVE and KILL MORE BOSSES.

 

That is all.

 

 

There two problem with your argument.

First your dealing in absolute. There is C. The gear that is better for the group. So if a set of heavy armor drop, and the Trooper would get +2 Aim and +5 Enduracne. But my compain get a +8 to Aim and +10 Endurance. Your saying it better for the player to get it. If it's +2 Aim and +5 Endurance then yes the player. But +8 and +10, that mean less healing for the healer, more damage for the group.

Second you act as if well the player need all the good gear, but it's a 8 man. That mean it need 8 well gear characters. Your philosphy at it's core would mean 4 well gear character and 4 under geared characters. And that not a hypothetical.

I already only at 30 seeing that, I have 2 under gear characters, and now with any fight no matter which I pick will be dead before the end. There gear not dropping from standard mob, I'm picking gear for them when offer for rewards, and their gear are not on the auction house.

The end is need is for anyhing you need to play your character and what is for your compain and mods do count. I think the general answer is the group have to talk and be more social and state "I need this for my compain" And if something interesting drop and say "I needing it unless there an issue." and state your reason.

Bioware need to put into a system for a secondary need in here. And more important a way to give drop that you won to party member. So I'm a Shadow tank and a Heavy armor drop. I can need it take out the Endurance Enhancement out and then give it to the Trooper.

[jontyld]

Wow, I seriously can't even keep up with this thread

 

I will say this, though...nothing we say/do here is going to change the way people play in the game now. The only way things will change is if BW makes a change with the system. Until then, we're all going to be frustrated and angry with each other and the community is never going to get any friendlier.

 

We need BW to realize there is an issue and it's causing a lot of grief in the game when two people have opposite opinions over how the system should be used.

 

I don't want this at all. The loot system as it is now is the easiest and most effecient way to distribute loot among group members. The entire issue is how loot should be distributed, with one side prioritizing their played character, and others who place equal emphasis on looks/mods/companion gear. And thankfully outside of this thread, its actually a very small issue. in fact in 2 characters to 50 and one more on the way I've never seen it come up.

[Halinalle]

I might be amendable to that if I never play solo with just my companion for battle assistance. However since I do use my companion outside of group play I would like the chance to gear it up as well.

 

I give my old gear for my companions if they can use it or if it's upgrade for them. You also pick up a lot of gear not meant for your class when you do "solo" content.

[JediMasterShake]

There two problem with your argument.

First your dealing in absolute. There is C. The gear that is better for the group. So if a set of heavy armor drop, and the Trooper would get +2 Aim and +5 Enduracne. But my compain get a +8 to Aim and +10 Endurance. Your saying it better for the player to get it. If it's +2 Aim and +5 Endurance then yes the player. But +8 and +10, that mean less healing for the healer, more damage for the group.

Second you act as if well the player need all the good gear, but it's a 8 man. That mean it need 8 well gear characters. Your philosphy at it's core would mean 4 well gear character and 4 under geared characters. And that not a hypothetical.

I already only at 30 seeing that, I have 2 under gear characters, and now with any fight no matter which I pick will be dead before the end. There gear not dropping from standard mob, I'm picking gear for them when offer for rewards, and their gear are not on the auction house.

The end is need is for anyhing you need to play your character and what is for your compain and mods do count. I think the general answer is the group have to talk and be more social and state "I need this for my compain" And if something interesting drop and say "I needing it unless there an issue." and state your reason.

Bioware need to put into a system for a secondary need in here. And more important a way to give drop that you won to party member. So I'm a Shadow tank and a Heavy armor drop. I can need it take out the Endurance Enhancement out and then give it to the Trooper.

 

 

I'm not ignoring your comments, many are valid. However, they are not valid for my exercise.

 

I am assuming ALL THINGS EQUAL. You have 4 players, with average gear, with average companions, in a hypothetical 8 man zone.

 

This situation is a proxy for trying to balance the needs of the player and the companion when loot drops. The idea is not to dive into specifics, but to address the greater concept of rolling on gear.

[Setanian]

Shouting. That's why nobody takes you seriously. It indicates something else too but I don't want to go that far yet.

 

Point is that EQ wasn't first.

 

What are you talking about?

[Creed_Buhallin]

I'm not ignoring your comments, many are valid. However, they are not valid for my exercise.

 

I am assuming ALL THINGS EQUAL. You have 4 players, with average gear, with average companions, in a hypothetical 8 man zone.

 

This situation is a proxy for trying to balance the needs of the player and the companion when loot drops. The idea is not to dive into specifics, but to address the greater concept of rolling on gear.

You've created a completely fictional scenario, removed anything remotely resembling context, very specifically crafted to show what you want it to. In your scenario, would it be better to gear the players? Almost certainly, which is why you created it with the parameters you did, and won't entertain reality.

 

Try mine:

 

I'm in a Flashpoint with three other players. Those other players are all going to quit the game and never return as soon as we finish this flashpoint. What should I roll on?

 

<shrug> Controlling away everything that doesn't support your point makes for a rather false argument.

[Revenaught]

Keep reading into my second post for an explanation of why you and your companion are WORSE off when everyone rolls Need on everything.

 

I read your post. I find hour assumptions and the numbers resulting from them highly dubious at best.

 

And did I not specifically say I do not roll need on everything that drops? Are you incapable of reading that part of my post, incapable of comprehending that part of my post, or just flat out ignoring it?

[Halinalle]

I'm in a Flashpoint with three other players. Those other players are all going to quit the game and never return as soon as we finish this flashpoint. What should I roll on?

 

Why do you want to run FP with people who will quit after you finish it?

[Grecanis]

Only if you dictate that certain ways of acquiring items are unacceptable. A lot of people have actually done this throughout the discussion: "You can't roll need for a companion in a Flashpoint, you can gear them solo!"

 

You could certainly claim it, but that wouldn't make it valid. It's a "You're playing wrong" argument, which is invalid on its face. More and more I'm thinking that's the core of this disagreement from your side, if not yours personally - people who play solo, or with companions, or value appearance over stats, are just playing wrong, and therefore their needs are inferior and don't actually qualify as "needs". Galb has explicitly said as much, as have numerous others.

 

And honestly, if that's the core of someone's argument, then they can go take a flying leap. You can play however you want, but I'm not about to let you dictate to me or my family how we play. I've dealt with people like that since the very beginning of MMOs, and I think they're nothing but a horribly destructive drain on the community.

 

I agree, if you've read any of my posts. My definition of "need" is much more conservative than yours and yes ..I think I'm right ...every bit as much as you think you are right.

 

I play almost exclusively solo and with my companions. If you find me in a group it's because I just need the quest or need help gaining a specific piece of gear. I almost never roll need as I almost never need anything ..according to my definition.

 

So you can play however you like ..it matters not to me.

 

What edge would that be? I only roll on stuff I need. I expect you to do the same, and will actively encourage it. If I roll on something for stats and you pass on it because someone in the last run screamed at you for that, I'll tell you to roll on whatever you want. I'm not sure how that's consistent with me trying to get some mythical edge. I don't keep score on who gets more loot on a run, unlike Galb, who seems very, VERY concerned about it.

 

Yes I'd do the same, except that your definition is much more liberal than mine, and many others. So when you press need with that more liberal need. you have just taken an edge over those who would have not rolled on your definition. Thus because you would roll on more things than others would, you stand to gain more than others.

 

Pressing need gives a greater chance of winning an item. That's the edge. When you press it you're not looking for an equal chance.

 

Over and over again your side of this argument tries to portray the opposite side as nothing but a bunch of greedy gits who will roll on everything. NOBODY in this debate has actually said that we'd do that. Many have laid out exactly what they would roll on, and all of us have said explicitly on multiple occasions that we'd encourage people to roll by the same standards - what they believe they could use. How is that an edge?

 

Maybe because thier value system teaches them that. People react to what they know to be the truth, mistakenly or not.

 

In this I tend to agree with them.

[Grecanis]

Eh?

 

"Dial back your definition of need" means "Don't roll". Often accompanied by "If you do, I'll kick you from the group, blacklist you in our guild, and try to make sure you never get a group again."

 

I'm relatively sure I could find plenty of actual explicit quotes of people saying you couldn't roll on something that wasn't just for your class, but that is such a hair-splitting semantic defense it's pretty obvious it means the same thing.

 

Edit: LOL. I just looked up. The THREAD TITLE: "Please, don't roll on items for another class in your team".

 

Yeah, NOBODY'S said you can't roll Unless you assume it's all OK because they said "please" before threatening to kick you out of the group.

 

All the more reason to just remove the need button.

[JediMasterShake]

You've created a completely fictional scenario, removed anything remotely resembling context, very specifically crafted to show what you want it to. In your scenario, would it be better to gear the players? Almost certainly, which is why you created it with the parameters you did, and won't entertain reality.

 

Try mine:

 

I'm in a Flashpoint with three other players. Those other players are all going to quit the game and never return as soon as we finish this flashpoint. What should I roll on?

 

<shrug> Controlling away everything that doesn't support your point makes for a rather false argument.

 

Your scenario is not instructive, and you've made it clear you're not here to engage in an honest discussion.

[Setanian]

"Going with the 'need' what you 'need'. And assuming the other 3 also do the same, it is indeterminable what the loot distribution will be."

 

No, it isn't. As I wrote: it is the EXPECTED VALUE of the loot.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

 

Therefore, on average, you will end up with LESS output from you and your companion under Method B (as I've defined in my previous posts.)

 

A = Player Upgrade

B = Companion Upgrade

 

A > B

A > .25A + .75B

 

You're trying to hinge your statistics on a known agreement. Which I already have stated works. However, that rarely happens in pugs. So my point still stands. If I stuck to rule of law and needed everything, I could, win everything. Not something I'd do, but random is random.

 

 

Your argument is so specific as to guarantee each player an item, so of course it is better. But, MMOs pugs don't run like that.

 

The argument is a fruitless exercise.

[JediMasterShake]

I read your post. I find hour assumptions and the numbers resulting from them highly dubious at best.

 

And did I not specifically say I do not roll need on everything that drops? Are you incapable of reading that part of my post, incapable of comprehending that part of my post, or just flat out ignoring it?

 

I told you I wasn't ignoring your post or your valid points. I've created a hypothetical from a few pages back. To actually engage in the discussion I'm having, it would be best if you read it from the beginning.

[Revenaught]

I give my old gear for my companions if they can use it or if it's upgrade for them. You also pick up a lot of gear not meant for your class when you do "solo" content.

 

If your content in keeping your companion in old outdated gear thats fine. Its your companion and your choice.

 

Please dont ask me to limit myself similarly.