Operative/Scoundrel Damage (Pics from WZs)

[Yogurta]

I think that the best way to balance operatives would be to remove the backstab face plant talent and substitute it for some utility.

 

For nerf callers, please roll operative to see how easy it is to get spotted while in stealth and get de-stealthed with knockbacks and AOE, which this game has plenty.

[Treplos]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1957455#edit1957455

 

well its PTR, guess that's what i was thinking.

 

hope you're ready to read, no one appears to be jumping the gun just yet... silly trolls...

 

Go read my reply to you. I'd like you to see your response to that.

[Lykurgus]

 

well its PTR, guess that's what i was thinking.

 

 

I doubt very much you were thinking. Op hate bandwagon was passing and you jumped on, same as everybody else. meh.

[Treplos]

I think that the best way to balance operatives would be to remove the backstab face plant talent and substitute it for some utility.

 

For nerf callers, please roll operative to see how easy it is to get spotted while in stealth and get de-stealthed with knockbacks and AOE, which this game has plenty.

 

Exactly. I elaborated on that in my other post.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2134139#post2134139

[heikaze]

you haven't been killed during the knockdown since 1.1 cuz that lowered the knockdown duration. You forget that they get to go invisible and knock you down again, and have other stuns. And this is coming from a marauder, who should be the boss melee class and is constantly overwhelmed by cc. If i have my CC break or i catch the stealthy off guard, it's gg for them. But it's not just the 2.5 sec you spend on your back, it's the 1.5 sec you spend standing up and the 4 sec stun and the 8 sec disable while they heal themselves lol. It's just too funny to see you guys think this will change anything. The ops will get nerfed and will have to learn to rotate their abilities or suffer, the super-high crit & free battlemaster days are coming to an end.

 

First off, theres something called resolve. Works for me 100 percent of the time. Thier opening, Hidde Strike puts you at full resolve. Therefore, your statement about being CCed back to back is incorrect, or your just trolling and fail to input any usefull statement and solutions.

 

Now, I have a 50 OP also in almost full champ gear and working on a marauder. I agree thier intiate burst is 2 high. Which is why the nerf to thier class, but good players will still own you cus you lack skill and any sort of attention span. You're bascially stating that if your cooldowns are up, you can kill any OP. So why are they not able to kill you when thier cooldown are up also? Sounds to me like you just want a free ride to winville.

 

My point is not about trying to unwind the nerf to OP, it happened and I am going to deal with it. The point is about the amount of QQ on this forum. As I stated, the changes are not even implemented yet, and you can see the direction of this forum changing to Sorcerer and Mercenary. It irritates me because not a single person have even experienced the nerf to OP yet, how thier burst will come to be after the nerf, YET they are already trying to nerf other classes already.

 

Its clear that many people are not working to balanced the game, but just trying to see every other class nerfed besides thier own.

Edited January 30, 2012 by heikaze

[Lykurgus]

Its clear that many people are not working to balanced the game, but just trying to see every other class nerfed besides thier own.

 

And that, Sir, is the root of the problem.

 

I honestly beleive that is the main reason OPs/Scounds got shafted so hard by the nerf bat. They are (or rather were) the counter class to Sorcs/Sages.

 

Sorcs/Sage make up such a huge percentage of the player base they can simply flood the board with their whines. The fact that BW listened and annouced this knee jerk nerf scares me about the furture of PVP in this game.

[DaniWes]

Simple reason for this is that Mercenaries and Sorcerers are in fact overpowered.

That's why.

[Lykurgus]

Simple reason for this is that Mercenaries and Sorcerers are in fact overpowered.

That's why.

 

I disagree. And right now I think calling for nerfs on ANY class is a just a bad idea. BW need to fix ability lag and make the mirror classes actual mirrors before we can seriously look at balance.

 

Patience young padawan, patience

Edited January 30, 2012 by Lykurgus

[heikaze]

Simple reason for this is that Mercenaries and Sorcerers are in fact overpowered.

That's why.

 

And to me marauder are OP. I can also say, "man marauders are OP". They have a 6 second immune, they can have another 80 percent damage reduction. They have a 30 second constant 20 percent damage reduction on a 1 min. CD. They are un-kitable. If spec, they can have a 45 second CC breaker which turns them invisble and plus thier 2min. one. They can put a constant 30 percent slow on target if spec. They have massive aoe burst, or sustained dps, or constant sustained single target burst.

 

Also can say, Mercenary are underpowered. They have to stand still and cast those 1.5second tracer missle, which makes them immobilized. One interrupt can lock them out thier main spell for 4 second, now add 2 people, now add 3. They are so useless.

 

See where I am going with this? All classes will seem OP in the correct hands. I have now just provided reasons to counter your reasons to why those classes are underpowered. O wait...what reasons?

Edited January 30, 2012 by heikaze

[Tycius]

Excellent post. I still feel that operative/scoundrel damage needs to be reduced slightly, but I admire how reasonable, neutral and thoughtful you have been when performing this research.

 

You receive my stamp of approval.

[Sookster]

Maybe that tells you something? And actually the biggest crit was from a Sith Warrior.

 

Probably from smash, look at the dps though, 3x lower than most other's though because of weapon damage being resisted lol.

 

With operative/scounderal's reduced burst damage, BW should increase the damage output outside stealth a little (shiv, overload shot, even eviscerate/headshot, etc).

Edited January 30, 2012 by Sookster

[Treplos]

Probably from smash, look at the dps though, 3x lower than most other's though because of weapon damage being resisted lol.

 

With operative/scounderal's reduced burst damage, BW should increase the damage output outside stealth a little (shiv, overload shot, even eviscerate/headshot, etc).

 

I wasn't measuring the effectiveness or total dmg, as there are many factors that can influence that, like if a guy joins the WZ late or something. I just wanted to see the burst potential and I was surprised to see they are capable of critting so high.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Treplos

[richijefe]

Your crits might not be that high, but the main point that people complain about is the fact that OPs stunlock you until you are dead. And also there are several videos made by OPs on the forums where they do (in full BM gear that is) a lot of 5k+ crits on relatively well geared opponents.

 

Myself, this does not bother me, as I believe that is the OPs job, to burst down opponents quickly. But the rest of the community does not seem to understand that.

 

And no, I do not play an OP, I play a sniper =)

[Treplos]

Your crits might not be that high, but the main point that people complain about is the fact that OPs stunlock you until you are dead. And also there are several videos made by OPs on the forums where they do (in full BM gear that is) a lot of 5k+ crits on relatively well geared opponents.

 

Myself, this does not bother me, as I believe that is the OPs job, to burst down opponents quickly. But the rest of the community does not seem to understand that.

 

And no, I do not play an OP, I play a sniper =)

 

The first part is untrue. There is no such thing as stun-lock from the Alpha Strike. There is a 3s HARD CC, much like any other hard CC that pretty much every class has. The only difference is that this hard CC has an animation of knocking someone on the ground, and the fact that it fills the resolve bar completely, so that no more hard CC can be applied to the target anymore for a good while.

 

The second part is what this whole thing is about. The moaners do not want a burst class/tree to burst them down when they get caught with their pants down. But they are ok to demolish that bursty class in every other situation.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Treplos

[BambulaGTS]

The first part is untrue. There is no such thing as stun-lock from the Alpha Strike. There is a 3s HARD CC, much like any other hard CC that pretty much every class has. The only difference is that this hard CC has an animation of knocking someone on the ground, and the fact that it fills the resolve bar completely, so that no more hard CC can be applied to the target anymore for a good while.

 

The second part is what this whole thing is about. The moaners do not want a bursty class to burst them down when they get caught with their pants down. But they are ok to demolish that bursty class in every other situation.

 

Actually geared operatives from my guild have 18 k hp and with all hostile debuff removing evasion and combat stealth and shockfrozen water ... Good luck to demolish (I mean BOOM DEMOLISHED NAB LOLO) something like that.

[HHHHHHHHHHHHHHH]

A class with AoE spells tops damage chart -- NO WAY

[Darkcloudy]

Today the complains will be for Operatives, tomorrow will be BH and the day after tomorrow it will be Sorcerers.

 

It is always a never ending cycle.

 

 

It has been said a lot of times PVP in MMOs is Adapt or Die.

[Treplos]

Actually geared operatives from my guild have 18 k hp and with all hostile debuff removing evasion and combat stealth and shockfrozen water ... Good luck to demolish (I mean BOOM DEMOLISHED NAB LOLO) something like that.

 

I am not sure if you mean PVP or PVE gear, but with BM gear, everyone is running with that much HP and up to 23k HP, or more depending on buffs/cons.

 

Out of stealth, Operatives cannot go toe-to-toe with any similarly-geared DPS class, or even a well played healer, due to the other classes having superior defensive CDs, and higher sustained DPS (or healers shielding / wearing them down), while having generally less energy problems. Other classes also have access to Water/Biochem.

 

Any similarly-skilled/geared class that catches an Operative out of Stealth (or simply sees them in Stealth or breaks their Stealth, which is easy to do), will very much likely kill them. The only thing that "might" save the Operative is using their Vanish type skill, and many times the attacker is waiting for it and can flush them out before they could move away.

 

The only advantage that Operatives really have is getting the jump on someone from Stealth. And that's the only good window they have to do their job.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Treplos

[Treplos]

A class with AoE spells tops damage chart -- NO WAY

 

Please go back and read again, as you apparently did not. This is about burst damage potential, not total damage.

[Cyndelx]

First off, theres something called resolve. Works for me 100 percent of the time. Thier opening, Hidde Strike puts you at full resolve. Therefore, your statement about being CCed back to back is incorrect, or your just trolling and fail to input any usefull statement and solutions.

 

Resolve doesn't work 100% of the time and I have more than once been stunned after the knockdown in hidden strike. Nice try.

 

I still think they should fix real issues before balancing. Add a dr or make resolve actually work. Fix the ability lag, fail animation-ability sync..then see what is overpowered.

[heikaze]

Resolve doesn't work 100% of the time and I have more than once been stunned after the knockdown in hidden strike. Nice try.

 

I still think they should fix real issues before balancing. Add a dr or make resolve actually work. Fix the ability lag, fail animation-ability sync..then see what is overpowered.

 

It does work 100 percent. You are really oblivous or just ignorant. There are 2 form of CC in this game, stuns and roots. Stuns makes you not able to do any action while roots puts you in place but you are able to cast and such.

 

Stuns fills your resolve bar and roots does not, and also works when your resolve bar are filled. Which is probably in your case.

 

So please don't give me that crap resolve does not work and such. Learn the form of CC and what it does before you come sprouting stuff. Because every single match i played, I was not able to "stun" a person with full resolve. Nor I seen one stunned.

[Treplos]

Resolve doesn't work 100% of the time and I have more than once been stunned after the knockdown in hidden strike. Nice try.

 

I still think they should fix real issues before balancing. Add a dr or make resolve actually work. Fix the ability lag, fail animation-ability sync..then see what is overpowered.

 

 

I agree. There are a few bugs that can happen sometimes with Resolve, but one cannot base a major nerf for a whole class/build on a bug that affects everyone!

 

And 100% agree, some DR or another look at Resolve needs to be done.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Treplos

[eroscastaldi]

People are running around with over 16k-23k HP in BM gear. Even assuming an opening crit for 6k, how is that instagib? Even after a "mythical" full rotation of crits during the 3s knockdown: 6k + 3k + 3k = 12k. How is that instagib?

bacause you can vanish and 12k+6k + 3k + 3k= 24k?

[dafoxeh]

Ok, this is first time posting on these forums coz i usualy just read and laugh to myself at how stupid most people are on these forums, and the truth is 95% that post here have no clue about what **** they're chattin, yet accuse others of the same and its pathetic, it really is.

 

now my first point for this is ....

 

TL;DR

 

All those photos show Sorcs and BH being top damage dealers with an occasional Imperial Agent (can't even tell if it is a sniper or operative).

 

 

you state "sorce" of being in all those screenies ...... and then claim Agent but not sure if SNP or OP ...... what makes you so sure they're sorce ?? ...... they are in fact Assasins, for 2 reasons ....

 

1. none of them have any healing done apart from one, which im not sure is a sorce and maybe due to use of med packs for my second reason which is ..

 

2. Sorce don't hit for the numbers being shown .. equal champ gear to another player a sorce will NOT hit for over 4k, Assassin on the other hand will, and do all the time.

 

 

I play sorcerer my self, healer mostly, i'm currently sitting on 10% expertise with my current gear, and i can say 100% i've never bin hit by another sorce for more than 3.2k

i've also when running dmg specc never hit anyone my self for more than 2.8k which was with chain lightening used off the wrath proc from madness tree giving 20% extra damage.

 

i have however, bin hit regularly by assassins for 4k+, BH's for 4.5k+ and bin hit a few times by Scoundrels Operatives for 7k+

 

the current situation for me atm is this .... i regularly get killed inside a stunlock by OP's coz theres just no way to counter the amount of burst they put out, only if im lucky, and they arn't very good, i can run away, if they are good however im dead, no question, no argument, im dead. don't give me the lol force sprint/bubble/cc ******** coz in the real world vs real pvper's it's not even a factor my healings gimped within pvp combat, and certain classes i cannot stand toe to toe and out heal a single classes DMG its not possible, i can run rings around a single assassin IF i have obsticles to kite him around, same can't be said for the other melee classes as they have more tools for lockin people down and closing gaps.

 

now im not saying sorce is underpowered as such, but they deffo are NOT overpowered and all the people saying otherwise are just bad players, every decent pvper knows if theres a sorce on the field you go kill them first, coz they're the easiest target to kill especialy for melee, i constantly get arse ***** by 4+ melee in every WZ coz they know as well as i do, im not gonna survive 3 seconds.

 

lets list the sorcerers defensive arsenal :-

 

1. Static Barrier

 

oh wait thats it .... which can be used once every 20 seconds and by my estimate absorbs roughly 4 - 5k dmg with the 20% buff from lightening ..... which seein as almost every other class in the game crits for 4k+ anyway, doesn't exactly stop much in the long run.

 

with how all the whiners on this forum talk static barrier could even absorb chuck norris, its bollox.

 

truth is at the end of the day sorce is not Overpowered, its far from it, yes they "can" be nasty if left alone to freecast on some nub standing in the open scratchin his lefty.

 

but as soon as any attention is turned to them they have to run away coz they can't withstand a battering from anyone, light armour, no Defensive CD, and everything we do is on a cast, any instant cast's we get, then have a 10 sec+ CD before they can be used again, some instants we need to cast or channel something in order to get a proc BEFORE we can instant cast .... and even then the proc isn't 100% .... wrath from madness sometimes takes 3 Force lightening channels to proc, thats 9 seconds of channeling before you can then insta cast chain lightening, which then has a 6 sec CD.

 

i could ramble about this all day, i know there are ignorant arrogant anal passages out there that will still argue Sorce is the devils work.

 

OP / scound is gettin nerfed coz they need it, theres no way anyone can argue against it.

 

BH =//= Merc / trooper -- this needs nerfing next, as thier DMG / armour / healing is out of whack they're a hybrid just the same as a sorce, yet they have heavy armour which provides a 100% uptime dmg reduction, as well as doing the second / third biggest crits in game next to the OP's, as well as being able to heal ..... now im not gonna say what needs to be done to nerf these coz i honestly don't know enough about every single ability they have to give a factual opinion .... only thing i can say is .... gettin spammed by a single ability that hits for shet loads is too much combined with everything else.

 

marauders -- i think they need a little tone down on thier defensive CD's in conjuction with thier dmg ... i've seen a fully BM geared guy tank 6 people, and kill 2 of them before they could finaly kill him ... given, some of the 6 may have bin window lickers but fact remains, 1 guy shouldn't be able to tank 6 and kill 2 while his CD's are active. other than that, don't see much issue with them

 

every other class has thier annoyances, but in general is somethin you learn to live with and counter ....

 

so i say this ..... all the people claiming sorce dmg is OP in pvp, piss off and stop being bad.

 

all those that say sorce utility in pvp is OP .... maybe in butthall only ... but then, concidering the amount of knockbacks / grips / charges / stuns ect ect .... they are hardly alone, they are the only class that brings a defensive grip .... but theres 2 others that have an offensive grip to counter ....... so agen, stop whining and form a team of players that combine the strengths of everyone. theres no "i" in TEAM !

[eroscastaldi]

Ok, this is first time posting on these forums coz i usualy just read and laugh to myself at how stupid most people are on these forums, and the truth is 95% that post here have no clue about what **** they're chattin, yet accuse others of the same and its pathetic, it really is.

 

now my first point for this is ....

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedahs

TL;DR

 

All those photos show Sorcs and BH being top damage dealers with an occasional Imperial Agent (can't even tell if it is a sniper or operative).

 

you state "sorce" of being in all those screenies ...... and then claim Agent but not sure if SNP or OP ...... what makes you so sure they're sorce ?? ...... they are in fact Assasins, for 2 reasons ....

 

1. none of them have any healing done apart from one, which im not sure is a sorce and maybe due to use of med packs for my second reason which is ..

 

2. Sorce don't hit for the numbers being shown .. equal champ gear to another player a sorce will NOT hit for over 4k, Assassin on the other hand will, and do all the time.

 

 

I play sorcerer my self, healer mostly, i'm currently sitting on 10% expertise with my current gear, and i can say 100% i've never bin hit by another sorce for more than 3.2k

i've also when running dmg specc never hit anyone my self for more than 2.8k which was with chain lightening used off the wrath proc from madness tree giving 20% extra damage.

 

i have however, bin hit regularly by assassins for 4k+, BH's for 4.5k+ and bin hit a few times by Scoundrels Operatives for 7k+

 

the current situation for me atm is this .... i regularly get killed inside a stunlock by OP's coz theres just no way to counter the amount of burst they put out, only if im lucky, and they arn't very good, i can run away, if they are good however im dead, no question, no argument, im dead. don't give me the lol force sprint/bubble/cc ******** coz in the real world vs real pvper's it's not even a factor my healings gimped within pvp combat, and certain classes i cannot stand toe to toe and out heal a single classes DMG its not possible, i can run rings around a single assassin IF i have obsticles to kite him around, same can't be said for the other melee classes as they have more tools for lockin people down and closing gaps.

 

now im not saying sorce is underpowered as such, but they deffo are NOT overpowered and all the people saying otherwise are just bad players, every decent pvper knows if theres a sorce on the field you go kill them first, coz they're the easiest target to kill especialy for melee, i constantly get arse ***** by 4+ melee in every WZ coz they know as well as i do, im not gonna survive 3 seconds.

 

lets list the sorcerers defensive arsenal :-

 

1. Static Barrier

 

oh wait thats it .... which can be used once every 20 seconds and by my estimate absorbs roughly 4 - 5k dmg with the 20% buff from lightening ..... which seein as almost every other class in the game crits for 4k+ anyway, doesn't exactly stop much in the long run.

 

with how all the whiners on this forum talk static barrier could even absorb chuck norris, its bollox.

 

truth is at the end of the day sorce is not Overpowered, its far from it, yes they "can" be nasty if left alone to freecast on some nub standing in the open scratchin his lefty.

 

but as soon as any attention is turned to them they have to run away coz they can't withstand a battering from anyone, light armour, no Defensive CD, and everything we do is on a cast, any instant cast's we get, then have a 10 sec+ CD before they can be used again, some instants we need to cast or channel something in order to get a proc BEFORE we can instant cast .... and even then the proc isn't 100% .... wrath from madness sometimes takes 3 Force lightening channels to proc, thats 9 seconds of channeling before you can then insta cast chain lightening, which then has a 6 sec CD.

 

i could ramble about this all day, i know there are ignorant arrogant anal passages out there that will still argue Sorce is the devils work.

 

OP / scound is gettin nerfed coz they need it, theres no way anyone can argue against it.

 

BH =//= Merc / trooper -- this needs nerfing next, as thier DMG / armour / healing is out of whack they're a hybrid just the same as a sorce, yet they have heavy armour which provides a 100% uptime dmg reduction, as well as doing the second / third biggest crits in game next to the OP's, as well as being able to heal ..... now im not gonna say what needs to be done to nerf these coz i honestly don't know enough about every single ability they have to give a factual opinion .... only thing i can say is .... gettin spammed by a single ability that hits for shet loads is too much combined with everything else.

 

marauders -- i think they need a little tone down on thier defensive CD's in conjuction with thier dmg ... i've seen a fully BM geared guy tank 6 people, and kill 2 of them before they could finaly kill him ... given, some of the 6 may have bin window lickers but fact remains, 1 guy shouldn't be able to tank 6 and kill 2 while his CD's are active. other than that, don't see much issue with them

 

every other class has thier annoyances, but in general is somethin you learn to live with and counter ....

 

so i say this ..... all the people claiming sorce dmg is OP in pvp, piss off and stop being bad.

 

all those that say sorce utility in pvp is OP .... maybe in butthall only ... but then, concidering the amount of knockbacks / grips / charges / stuns ect ect .... they are hardly alone, they are the only class that brings a defensive grip .... but theres 2 others that have an offensive grip to counter ....... so agen, stop whining and form a team of players that combine the strengths of everyone. theres no "i" in TEAM !

 

 

wich class you play?