The Klingon Defence Forces Vs The Imperial Fleet

[jarjarloves]

lol no.. you take lines out of context then make vague assumption on them and claime they are canon despite the fact your interpretation of them goes against established canon that has already been approved by Leeland Chee

 

In what way are the lines out of context or not canon. I also have not seen you explain the weapon strength of the weapons. Like I said even if they had 1000000000 ships their weapons are still weak

[Liquidacid]

In what way are the lines out of context or not canon. I also have not seen you explain the weapon strength of the weapons. Like I said even if they had 1000000000 ships their weapons are still weak

 

your vague assumptions and interpretations of what appear in the movies are just that.. assumptions... and since you aren't even a factor in the deciding equation of what is or isn't in the IP's canon or what does and doesn't contradict it they are irrelevant...

 

printed canon > your guesses

 

the printed weapon outputs were published AFTER the films and Leeland Chee and his department used the rules of canon, which they made, before they approved it... your interpretations, assumptions and opinions on it don't matter

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[WowWasBetter]

your vague assumptions and interpretations of what appear in the movies are just that.. assumptions... and since you aren't even a factor in the deciding equation of what is or isn't in the IP's canon or what does and doesn't contradict it they are irrelevant...

 

printed canon > your guesses

 

the printed weapon outputs were published AFTER the films and Leeland Chee and his department used the rules of canon, which they made, before they approved it... your interpretations, assumptions and opinions on it don't matter

 

Because numbers with no basis in science are totally valid. Hey remember back to the future? The delorean could generates over a jiggawatt of energy off a few pounds of plutonium. So by your logic the delorean is better than a SSD

[Liquidacid]

Because numbers with no basis in science are totally valid. Hey remember back to the future? The delorean could generates over a jiggawatt of energy off a few pounds of plutonium. So by your logic the delorean is better than a SSD

 

maybe you don't understand what "fiction" is?

[jarjarloves]

your vague assumptions and interpretations of what appear in the movies are just that.. assumptions... and since you aren't even a factor in the deciding equation of what is or isn't in the IP's canon or what does and doesn't contradict it they are irrelevant...

 

printed canon > your guesses

 

the printed weapon outputs were published AFTER the films and Leeland Chee and his department used the rules of canon, which they made, before they approved it... your interpretations, assumptions and opinions on it don't matter

 

sigh.....

 

ok you are still under the idea that if it gets printed it's canon.

 

First thing you need to understand that is not true.

 

here is the list of canon

 

Now do you agree this is the official rules of Star Wars Canon?

 

 

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

 

T-canon[2] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[3]

 

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

 

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

 

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

 

So you do agree that is how the canon system is set up right? And you agree that anything in the EU universe to be considered Canon must conform to G-canon right?

[WowWasBetter]

maybe you don't understand what "fiction" is?

 

I understand perfectly, my point (yet again) is that you cannot compare the power of the technologies because they are INTERNALLY INCOSISTENT. Meaning how powerful any given piece of technology is changes depending on who is writing it and what is more convienent for the story at that time.

 

If we are going to do this we must remove the whole "lawlz SSD has more energy output than the sun" BS.

[Liquidacid]

sigh.....

 

ok you are still under the idea that if it gets printed it's canon.

 

First thing you need to understand that is not true.

 

here is the list of canon

 

Now do you agree this is the official rules of Star Wars Canon?

 

 

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

 

T-canon[2] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[3]

 

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

 

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

 

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

 

So you do agree that is how the canon system is set up right? And you agree that anything in the EU universe to be considered Canon must conform to G-canon right?

 

you completely miss the point... every "fact" you have used to prove that said things don't conform to g-canon are nothing more than your opinions and assumptions... the only people's opinion on if something contradicts g-canon or not that matter are from LucasArts and the team dedicated to it... which have approved the numbers into canon... those rules are not for YOU to use to decide what's canon they are the rules THEY (the IP owners and employees) use... and they have said it is canon and not retconed it since..

 

Just because YOU have the opinion something contradicts g-canon doesn't me THEY do and they have all the say.. it's why they have a whole department who do official retcons

 

 

I understand perfectly, my point (yet again) is that you cannot compare the power of the technologies because they are INTERNALLY INCOSISTENT. Meaning how powerful any given piece of technology is changes depending on who is writing it and what is more convienent for the story at that time.

 

If we are going to do this we must remove the whole "lawlz SSD has more energy output than the sun" BS.

 

oh look you made a semi-coherent post... you are right that in all reality the numbers arbitrary because it is a work of fiction and done for effect not consistency... but then you also have to dismiss every single effect or act you witness in the work because they are all also arbitrary and done for only for effect and lack consistency... SO EVERYTHING IN A WORK OF FICTION IS ARBITRARY.... you can't disprove imaginary facts that are dictated solely by fiction writers... you also can't ignore one set of arbitrary facts or another set

 

throwing out the arbitrary printed numbers in favor of your opinions and interpretations of the arbitrary special effect makes no more sense than doing it the other way around

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Kabloosh]

I understand perfectly, my point (yet again) is that you cannot compare the power of the technologies because they are INTERNALLY INCOSISTENT. Meaning how powerful any given piece of technology is changes depending on who is writing it and what is more convienent for the story at that time.

 

If we are going to do this we must remove the whole "lawlz SSD has more energy output than the sun" BS.

 

For all we know maybe you do need the energy of a small star to produce a defensive shield strong enough to protect a ship of it's size and have enough power to fire its laser cannons.

 

The way I compared the 2 civilizations is their base sizes.

 

Ones been in space for several thousand years and has been a Galactic power for several thousand years with hundreds of thousands of star systems with so much varying degree of technology. The other has only 150 planets under its control. I'm saying despite the technological differences the Galactic power has an overwhelming advantage just due to it's size.

 

They had enough resources to produce 2 moon sized battleships which I'm willing to bet did not consume their entire manufacturing capabilities. They might of sucked and are vulnerable to small aircraft but The United Federation doesn't really field any fighters or bombers like in the Star Wars universe so the Death Stars would be able to pretty much free reign zapping ships and planets to oblivion.

 

Again. The stage of which the Galactic Republic(or Empire) fights at a Galactic scale. Something the United Federation can't even think about at this time with only 150 planets under it's banner.

[Rayla_Felana]

For all we know maybe you do need the energy of a small star to produce a defensive shield strong enough to protect a ship of it's size and have enough power to fire its laser cannons.

 

The way I compared the 2 civilizations is their base sizes.

 

Ones been in space for several thousand years and has been a Galactic power for several thousand years with hundreds of thousands of star systems with so much varying degree of technology. The other has only 150 planets under its control. I'm saying despite the technological differences the Galactic power has an overwhelming advantage just due to it's size.

 

They had enough resources to produce 2 moon sized battleships which I'm willing to bet did not consume their entire manufacturing capabilities. They might of sucked and are vulnerable to small aircraft but The United Federation doesn't really field any fighters or bombers like in the Star Wars universe so the Death Stars would be able to pretty much free reign zapping ships and planets to oblivion.

 

Again. The stage of which the Galactic Republic(or Empire) fights at a Galactic scale. Something the United Federation can't even think about at this time with only 150 planets under it's banner.

 

This is basically what I am trying to put across, The United Federation is simply dwarfed by the Galactic Empire, same as the Klingon Empire, a MUCH better fight would be the Dominion against the Galactic Empire, i just read up on the Star Trek main powers and they seem a far better fit, but more over, if the Galactic Empire faced the Borg, I would easily say the Borg wins there.

[Liquidacid]

This is basically what I am trying to put across, The United Federation is simply dwarfed by the Galactic Empire, same as the Klingon Empire, a MUCH better fight would be the Dominion against the Galactic Empire, i just read up on the Star Trek main powers and they seem a far better fit, but more over, if the Galactic Empire faced the Borg, I would easily say the Borg wins there.

 

I dunno about the Borg... they seem to be more powerful but then again they constantly get stomped by the federation

 

it's one of those that are hard to even imagine because the fights are always just decided by deus ex machina... in the ST universe the Borg reasonably should have already crushed everyone yet they are beat constantly almost every single time they are encountered (because they are the bad guys)

 

but hey if the Feds can beat the Borg almost everytime and the Empire can ROFLstomp the Feds then logically the Empire can stomp the Borg too (again baring any deus ex machina ****)

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Rayla_Felana]

I dunno about the Borg... they seem to be more powerful but then again they constantly get stomped by the federation

 

it's one of those that are hard to even imagine because the fights are always just decided by deus ex machina... in the ST universe the Borg reasonably should have already crushed everyone yet they are beat constantly almost every single time they are encountered

 

From what I remember of Voyager, when I watched it and First Contact(?) on multiple occasions they only ever sent one Borg cube, or something a long those lines to battle the other races, now imagine what would happen if they sent about five Borg cubes to Earth, Star Fleet gets crushed and the United Federation is assimilated, wouldn't I be right in stating the Borg has a massive part of Space, much bigger than any other race? at least from what I remember.

[jarjarloves]

you completely miss the point... every "fact" you have used to prove that said things don't conform to g-canon are nothing more than your opinions and assumptions... the only people's opinion on if something contradicts g-canon or not that matter are from LucasArts and the team dedicated to it... which have approved the numbers into canon... those rules are not for YOU to use to decide what's canon they are the rules THEY (the IP owners and employees) use... and they have said it is canon and not retconed it since..

 

Just because YOU have the opinion something contradicts g-canon doesn't me THEY do and they have all the say.. it's why they have a whole department who do official retcons

 

sigh..... I see we need to go really slow

 

again do you agree with the rules of the Star Wars Canon system?

[Liquidacid]

From what I remember of Voyager, when I watched it and First Contact(?) on multiple occasions they only ever sent one Borg cube, or something a long those lines to battle the other races, now imagine what would happen if they sent about five Borg cubes to Earth, Star Fleet gets crushed and the United Federation is assimilated, wouldn't I be right in stating the Borg has a massive part of Space, much bigger than any other race? at least from what I remember.

 

ya but then ask yourself why they never actually do that... in reality we know it's because the good guys have to win so even if the entire Borg race came they would be beat in some way... but in-universe it's anyone's guess

 

their whole deal is a single trump card (assimilation) .. who's to say if it would even work on SW tech or biology

 

if it does they have a great chance... (depending on what superweapons the empire breaks out) if it doesn't they are flat out screwed

 

sigh..... I see we need to go really slow

 

again do you agree with the rules of the Star Wars Canon system?

 

I'm gonna go ahead and drop it with you because it can't possibly be explained to you any simpler than I did and I refuse to believe you honestly don't understand... so have fun trying to argue that your opinions are more valid than established canon

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[MustrumRidcully]

About the carrier is a space faring carrier is going to be something like in Battlestar Galactica. Its going to be a capital ship and we will most likely surround it with smaller frigate/destroyer type ships used to protect the carrier from whatever weapons we throw at them.

 

The problem with science fiction is they always came up with something to counter act weapons while in real life there is no armor in the world that can really save you from any level of weapon system we have today. This has led to everything being highly vulnerable and stealth and mobility is your ONLY real form of protection.

True, except for one thing: Stealth in space is basically impossible. One of the biggest problems for space ships is actually that they risk heating up rapidly and have no way to lose that energy except radiation. Mass Effect basically is relatively close to the truth in that regard - stealth would -if at all - only possible for short period of time, otherwise you risk everyone in your ship boiling. Combat presents the same issue - the weapon firing will heat up your ship, and you would need to retreat at some point.

 

Even shields seem a bit "eh" cause the amount of power to generate a shield is ENORMOUS and since you can produce that amount of energy to protect something for a long time you can guarantee you can produce a weapon that can generate an equal amount of power and even focus it on 1 area blowing through a shield system quite effortlessly.

Shields as depicted in most Science Fiction universes - and definitely Star Trek - don't make physical sense and will never be possible.

 

The Galactic Republic maybe stagnant but the Federation or any Star Trek civilization just isn't even near the scale of The Galactic Republic. It would be like pitting Ireland vs China in all out war. China could arm their population with pitchforks and they could just zerg rush the hell out of them and still win.

Well, it depends really on how high we put our made-up numbers for the respective techs - if Star Wars Star Destroyers can't even scratch a Neg'Var's shields, it doesn't matter how many you field. But of course, currently it looks as if Star Wars fans and writers managed to make up higher numbers, so it's moot.

 

I think the Empire would lose anyway, since both Startrek and Star Wars are universes where the good guys win. And the post-TNG Klingons are good guys.

[Liquidacid]

currently it looks as if Star Wars fans and writers managed to make up higher numbers, so it's moot.

 

I think the Empire would lose anyway, since both Startrek and Star Wars are universes where the good guys win. And the post-TNG Klingons are good guys.

 

that's about it right there

 

if the Klingons are still bad guys the empire crushes them via bigger made up canon numbers

 

if they are the good guys they win by default because the good guys always do

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[PeepsMcJuggs]

ya but then ask yourself why they never actually do that... in reality we know it's because the good guys have to win so even if the entire Borg race came they would be beat in some way... but in-universe it's anyone's guess

 

their whole deal is a single trump card (assimilation) .. who's to say if it would even work on SW tech or biology

 

The Borg are also about adaptation. When they come across a problem they don't have an immediate solution to, they collectively analyze the problem until they can resolve it (this is how adaptation to absorb phasers works: they let a few drones get killed until they understand how the phasers work and adapt to render them useless).

 

The Borg are able to assimilate humans easily, and there's nothing to indicate the humans in the Star Wars galaxy are any different than the humans in our galaxy. And once a human is assimilated, their knowledge is immediately absorbed into The Collective. Through this process, assimilating a Star Destroyer's crew (which is 100% human), they would know and understand how the SD's technology works, and therefore find a way to assimilate it and adapt it.

Edited February 7, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs

[jarjarloves]

Here you go Liquid Acid

 

This is Leeland Chee stating that not everything in the EU is considered Canon

 

 

Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?

 

"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.

 

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

 

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.

[WowWasBetter]

For all we know maybe you do need the energy of a small star to produce a defensive shield strong enough to protect a ship of it's size and have enough power to fire its laser cannons.

 

The way I compared the 2 civilizations is their base sizes.

 

Ones been in space for several thousand years and has been a Galactic power for several thousand years with hundreds of thousands of star systems with so much varying degree of technology. The other has only 150 planets under its control. I'm saying despite the technological differences the Galactic power has an overwhelming advantage just due to it's size.

 

They had enough resources to produce 2 moon sized battleships which I'm willing to bet did not consume their entire manufacturing capabilities. They might of sucked and are vulnerable to small aircraft but The United Federation doesn't really field any fighters or bombers like in the Star Wars universe so the Death Stars would be able to pretty much free reign zapping ships and planets to oblivion.

 

Again. The stage of which the Galactic Republic(or Empire) fights at a Galactic scale. Something the United Federation can't even think about at this time with only 150 planets under it's banner.

 

My view is more of a "federation doesn't have the manpower to conquer the empire but the empire can't take out the federation " mainly because it would require an inordinate amount of resources to conquer the federation compared to what they would win. So the end result is the federation chilling in their territory and the empire leaving them alone. Much like the result of Vietnam

[Liquidacid]

The Borg are also about adaptation. When they come across a problem they don't have an immediate solution to, they collectively analyze until they can.

 

The Borg are able to assimilate humans easily, and there's nothing to indicate the humans in the Star Wars galaxy are any different than the humans in our galaxy. And once a human is assimilated, their knowledge is immediately absorbed into The Collective. Through this process, assimilating a Star Destroyer's crew (which is 100% human), they would know and understand how the SD's technology works, and therefore find a way to assimilate it and adapt it.

 

true but I could say "convergent evolution" or some such excuse because there is no canon link between SW humans and Milky Way Humans... or that SW tech is advanced enough to vaccinate against or not be affected by borg nanites... we know they have nanite technology just not if it is even remotely similar or how well it is or isn't protected against...

 

lol... again why I say it's up in the air unless we set out our own specifics before we debate it

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[Rayla_Felana]

ya but then ask yourself why they never actually do that... in reality we know it's because the good guys have to win so even if the entire Borg race came they would be beat in some way... but in-universe it's anyone's guess

 

their whole deal is a single trump card (assimilation) .. who's to say if it would even work on SW tech or biology

 

if it does they have a great chance... (depending on what superweapons the empire breaks out) if it doesn't they are flat out screwed.

 

One Burg cube attacks Earth, the Federation is beat to hell, until Captain Picard turns up and knows a Borg Cube inside out from his time as Locutus(?) and gives the Federation the ace in the hole, five Borg Cubes would flat out annihilate Star Fleet and assimilate everything.

 

Also, they could assimilate any tech or Bio but Species 8472 and there were specific reasons for that, the Empire is made up of Humans, we've seen the Humans in our universe are easily assimilated, Star Wars Humans have absolutely no difference whatsoever but Midichlorians, and they aren't cells in the blood, they are just a symbiotic lifeform that gives varying degrees of force sensitivity.

 

The Borg can also adapt to the Empire's weaponry.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[nethervoid]

Death star. </thread>

 

They'd just lawl Klingon and call it a day.

[Liquidacid]

One Burg cube attacks Earth, the Federation is beat to hell, until Captain Picard turns up and knows a Borg Cube inside out from his time as Locutus(?) and gives the Federation the ace in the hole, five Borg Cubes would flat out annihilate Star Fleet and assimilate everything.

 

Also, they could assimilate any tech or Bio but Species 6472 and there were specific reasons for that, the Empire is made up of Humans, we've seen the Humans in our universe are easily assimilated, Star Wars Humans have absolutely no difference whatsoever but Midichlorians, and they aren't cells in the blood, they are just a symbiotic lifeform that gives varying degrees of force sensitivity.

 

The Borg can also adapt to the Empire's weaponry.

 

Borg show up... empire launches newly remade Sun-crusher and annihilates every star the borg show up in very easily by the fact they can travel millions of time faster and don't give a crap about killing innocent... or how about Emperor uses the force to move his consciousness into the Borg queen now the empire controls them

 

it's all Deus ex machina powers and baseless assumptions at this point

 

SW humans are the same as ST humans -- no lore only assumptions

Borg nonotech is compatible with SW tech -- no lore assumptions

The force works on Borg -- no lore assumptions

 

it's why I prefer to keep arbitrary comparisons like this to basic military forces and weapons ...

Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid

[WowWasBetter]

Death star. </thread>

 

They'd just lawl Klingon and call it a day.

 

Doomsday machine > death star. Yes I just called out your gray golfball with my bugle corn chip. Its on!

But seriously, beam a photon torpedo on the bridge/ into the vent and GG

[jarjarloves]

Borg show up... empire launches newly remade Sun-crusher and annihilates every star the borg show up in very easily by the fact they can travel millions of time faster and don't give a crap about killing innocent... or how about Emperor uses the force to move his consciousness into the Borg queen now the empire controls them

 

it's all Deus ex machina powers at this point

 

see this is why it is important to have a discusiion about what is canon and what is not.

 

THE SUN CRUSHER IS NOT CANON

 

Leeland Chee answered this question

 

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

 

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.

 

 

It is not up to YOU to decide what is canon it is up to the George Lucas and his employees

 

Both George Lucas and Leeland Chee both have said that nothing after ROTJ is G-canon

 

But please try to tell me both George Lucas and Leeland Chee are wrong. I dare you

Edited February 7, 2012 by jarjarloves

[WowWasBetter]

Borg show up... empire launches newly remade Sun-crusher and annihilates every star the borg show up in very easily by the fact they can travel millions of time faster and don't give a crap about killing innocent... or how about Emperor uses the force to move his consciousness into the Borg queen now the empire controls them

 

it's all Deus ex machina powers and baseless assumtions at this point

 

Borg transwarp is on par with hyperspace travel so no on the speed thing. And can the emperor take control of someone he can't see/doesn't know the existence of? And would his will be stronger than the entire collective?