jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) that's not actually how it works... characters are meant to appear semi-realistic meaning what they state could be anything from hyperbole to flat out incorrect due to their perspective or lack of knowledge... Han also says the force doesn't exist and the jedi religion and lightsabers are no match for a blaster... so that MUST be 100 percent correct because he said it right???? that's not what han says either HAN: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. LUKE: You don't believe in the Force, do you? HAN: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. so yes that is EXACTLY how it works. Edited February 7, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endimar Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It would be like the Force not actually existing and everything Obi Wan told you was a lie. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WowWasBetter Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Plot mechanics were mostly in play there. Its hard to get a feel of what Star Wars tech is really capable of especially compared to Star Trek which put a whole lot more thought in that aspect in the series. <snip>Tech wise the Star Destroyer's guns can obliterate stuff. They are a hell of a lot stronger then phasers on the Enterprise and Darth Malak even used such tech to smash Taris into oblivion. Star Wars has a better understanding of their galaxy and can travel through it faster giving them a massive advantage which is the logistical aspect of fighting wars. They could readily reinforce their forces and get supplies where they need to be quicker allowing them to keep the pressure. The defining powerhouse in the Star Wars universe. Their ground forces and special units team. They would simply board their ships and kill everyone inside and seize the vessel that way. Don't say they can't cause you would be talking about highly skilled special forces teams or Sith/Jedi here. Nobody in the Star Trek universe could go toe to toe with the BS force users bring to the table. So unless these Star Trek fleets are like the god like 300 Spartans from the movie 300 they are REALLY screwed. The power of the technology can't be used because it changes on the whims of the writers. Now the presence of technology can be brought into play. The transwarp tech voyager stole from the borg is about on par with hyperspace drives (both are crazy fast) and with star treks replicators supplies are a non issue. Clone troopers are nullified by photonic soldiers (ala the doctor from voyager) and if the sith/jedi manage to board a ship they'll just be beamed out of it. The end result is we are taking a civilization that has been stagnant for a minimum of 4000 years both in tech and tactics and sending them against a civilization that can adapt to, and create, new tech and tactics extremely quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Ultimately, it may just have been an aesthetic choice. But I think it has to with several factors: 1) Startrek weapons are alwas described as very precise - at least Phasers are. Phasers are constantly used to disable subsystems and the like. Startrek vessels don't need FLAKs - they fire a phaser and hit exactly the fighter they want to hit, and the Fighter or Shuttle doesn't really have the defensive capabilities to last against that for long. 2) Shields make smaller, fighter based weaponry ineffective. In addition, the smaller size of fighters does not allow them to yield heavy energy weapons. But - shields protect well against "kinetic" weapons, e.g. torpedoes/missiles. In the real world, we don't have shields, and so missiles are a highly effective weapon. But in Startrek, you first need to break through the enemies shields before you can really deal serious damage. And a Fighter won't be able to do that. Fighter Aircraft in the real world have incredible firepower for their size. That's not the case for Space Fighters in Startrek. 3) Aircraft Carriers are slow, and cannot operate well against land targets. But they have a long range and can operate independent for extended period of times. They carry fast-moving craft close to the desination, allowing that craft to deploy, make an attack, and retreat for refuel and rearming. In Startrek, a larger space vessel is just as fast as a shuttle or fighter. It can achieve high warp speeds (in fact, the smaller vessel may be significantly slower) and fast sublight speeds. It is also armed with weapons that can attack any target on a planetary surface. There is not even a need to deploy bombers. It can also (thanks to transporters) instantly transport troops to the ground. Fighters have a certain purpose in Startrek. You cannot deploy large space ships everywhere, and sometimes just having a small craft can do the job. But that job is probably more in the realm of patrols and transport. (The fighter used in DS9, the Peregrine, is actually designated as Courier vessel, not a combat vessel.) And of course - if you really have to throw in everything because it's about losing or winning the war - you'll even send those smaller ships. And if it's just cannon fodder, each phaser hit destroying a fighter is a phaser hit not damaging a Cruiser's shields... In the end - neither Star Wars nor Star Trek has any realistic concept of space combat, and I don't think it will be like "Ship of the Line" naval warfare nor 20th/21st century naval warfare. About the carrier is a space faring carrier is going to be something like in Battlestar Galactica. Its going to be a capital ship and we will most likely surround it with smaller frigate/destroyer type ships used to protect the carrier from whatever weapons we throw at them. The problem with science fiction is they always came up with something to counter act weapons while in real life there is no armor in the world that can really save you from any level of weapon system we have today. This has led to everything being highly vulnerable and stealth and mobility is your ONLY real form of protection. Even shields seem a bit "eh" cause the amount of power to generate a shield is ENORMOUS and since you can produce that amount of energy to protect something for a long time you can guarantee you can produce a weapon that can generate an equal amount of power and even focus it on 1 area blowing through a shield system quite effortlessly. The power of the technology can't be used because it changes on the whims of the writers. Now the presence of technology can be brought into play. The transwarp tech voyager stole from the borg is about on par with hyperspace drives (both are crazy fast) and with star treks replicators supplies are a non issue. Clone troopers are nullified by photonic soldiers (ala the doctor from voyager) and if the sith/jedi manage to board a ship they'll just be beamed out of it. The end result is we are taking a civilization that has been stagnant for a minimum of 4000 years both in tech and tactics and sending them against a civilization that can adapt to, and create, new tech and tactics extremely quickly. Well regardless of all that. I still say the Galactic Republic or the Empire has a much larger production capability then the entire Star Trek universe. The Federation consists 150 planets and a few thousand colonies while the Galactic Republic fields over several hundred thousand planets under it's rule. Wars are really fought on the production line. Churn out more then the other guy and you can win. Its how America beat the pants off of Japan and how we managed to fight the Germans despite the Germans having superior firepower. The Galactic Republic maybe stagnant but the Federation or any Star Trek civilization just isn't even near the scale of The Galactic Republic. It would be like pitting Ireland vs China in all out war. China could arm their population with pitchforks and they could just zerg rush the hell out of them and still win. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kabloosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 About the carrier is a space faring carrier is going to be something like in Battlestar Galactica. Its going to be a capital ship and we will most likely surround it with smaller frigate/destroyer type ships used to protect the carrier from whatever weapons we throw at them. The problem with science fiction is they always came up with something to counter act weapons while in real life there is no armor in the world that can really save you from any level of weapon system we have today. This has led to everything being highly vulnerable and stealth and mobility is your ONLY real form of protection. Even shields seem a bit "eh" cause the amount of power to generate a shield is ENORMOUS and since you can produce that amount of energy to protect something for a long time you can guarantee you can produce a weapon that can generate an equal amount of power and even focus it on 1 area blowing through a shield system quite effortlessly. Well regardless of all that. I still say the Galactic Republic or the Empire has a much larger production capability then the entire Star Trek universe. The Federation consists 150 planets and a few thousand colonies while the Galactic Republic fields over several hundred thousand planets under it's rule. Wars are really fought on the production line. Churn out more then the other guy and you can win. Its how America beat the pants off of Japan and how we managed to fight the Germans despite the Germans having superior firepower. The Galactic Republic maybe stagnant but the Federation or any Star Trek civilization just isn't even near the scale of The Galactic Republic. It would be like pitting Ireland vs China in all out war. China could arm their population with pitchforks and they could just zerg rush the hell out of them and still win. but again the Empire lost to the Rebels who have no where near the firepower or resources that they had. Look back at US history the US won against England with fewer numbers and didn't even have close to the disipline or military strenght of England. There are examples of both kinds of wins throughout history but if we are talking about their respective universes then you have to go with the Rebels beating the Empire. Or even just the Empire getting their butts handed to them by Ewoks. Stones and Spears took out At-Sts and armored stormtrooprs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Snip. Regardless, you are making a massive assumption that the fleet they mention is the entire imperial navy, this is beyond ridiculous, there were numerous fleets each of which were headed by an SSD, nothing in the movies state otherwise, they could just as easily be talking about the fleet of one sector, as that is how the Imperial Navy works, multiple sectors with a fleet for each one, you are claiming their is just one fleet with no concrete evidence, we have evidence that states there was more than just one fleet to the imperial navy, hell Thrawn took his own fleet into the unknown regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Regardless, you are making a massive assumption that the fleet they mention is the entire imperial navy, this is beyond ridiculous, there were numerous fleets each of which were headed by an SSD, nothing in the movies state otherwise, they could just as easily be talking about the fleet of one sector, as that is how the Imperial Navy works, multiple sectors with a fleet for each one, you are claiming their is just one fleet with no concrete evidence, we have evidence that states there was more than just one fleet to the imperial navy, hell Thrawn took his own fleet into the unknown regions. well yeah the evidence we see is in the movies. You could argue that we only see a few SD and such because of the limitations due to special effects but we see the same thing in the Prequels and he did add more tie fighters in the Special Editions. So it's pretty clear that the EU version of the Empire isn't the same as the Movie version. But even saying that the empire is over 1 million ships doesn't change the power levels that we see in the movies. The Star Destroyers are just not capable of even destroying 1 planet no matter how many we see. Not to mention how large and powerfull can the Empire be if there are a bunch of planets with 0 imperial presence? Such as Yavin, Bespin, Datoonie, and Hoth? Then there are others such as Tatoonie that has a very small imperial presence. The only reason they are at ENdor is to build the Death Star 2 so since that is a secret location there obvioulsy wasn't any imperal troops there before. Edited February 7, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 but again the Empire lost to the Rebels who have no where near the firepower or resources that they had. Look back at US history the US won against England with fewer numbers and didn't even have close to the disipline or military strenght of England. There are examples of both kinds of wins throughout history but if we are talking about their respective universes then you have to go with the Rebels beating the Empire. Or even just the Empire getting their butts handed to them by Ewoks. Stones and Spears took out At-Sts and armored stormtrooprs Those aren't good examples unless the Empire/Republic is fielding an offensive force in a very distant location. England lost to America only because it was a war of attrition. They were still militarily superior but being so far away from their home and with dwindling resources and sluggish supply lines they just couldn't support it anymore especially since they were also dealing with other conflicts across the world. Yeah, the movies did make the Galactic Empire look stupid. Despite how it looked in that scene they were going to lose that battle until the Emperor was defeated. You forget that wasn't the full might of the Galactic Empire. It was 1 fleet while a big one vs a very large military presence by the Rebels. The Rebels could field a larger military force than the Star Trek universe. The scale of which Star Wars takes place is a lot larger then what is portrayed in the movies. The Galactic Empire was dealing with an insurgency not an all out war like the Clone Wars. Essentially it was still just an internal power struggle from within since the Rebels were simply just those who went against the Emperor. But since he had a massive clone army and millions, yes millions of ships made to obey him even a few hundred Jedi would be crushed easily. This fight wouldn't even be remotely fair. The Galactic Republic or Empire(it doesn't matter) would send 1 major fleet which would be far larger than what the Federation could field anyways and simply utilize a fraction of their strength to deal with a minor civilization that is not anywhere near the level of a Galactic Power yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Those aren't good examples unless the Empire/Republic is fielding an offensive force in a very distant location. England lost to America only because it was a war of attrition. They were still militarily superior but being so far away from their home and with dwindling resources and sluggish supply lines they just couldn't support it anymore especially since they were also dealing with other conflicts across the world. Yeah, the movies did make the Galactic Empire look stupid. Despite how it looked in that scene they were going to lose that battle until the Emperor was defeated. You forget that wasn't the full might of the Galactic Empire. It was 1 fleet while a big one vs a very large military presence by the Rebels. The Rebels could field a larger military force than the Star Trek universe. The scale of which Star Wars takes place is a lot larger then what is portrayed in the movies. The Galactic Empire was dealing with an insurgency not an all out war like the Clone Wars. Essentially it was still just an internal power struggle from within since the Rebels were simply just those who went against the Emperor. But since he had a massive clone army and millions, yes millions of ships made to obey him even a few hundred Jedi would be crushed easily. This fight wouldn't even be remotely fair. The Galactic Republic or Empire(it doesn't matter) would send 1 major fleet which would be far larger than what the Federation could field anyways and simply utilize a fraction of their strength to deal with a minor civilization that is not anywhere near the level of a Galactic Power yet. Again if the empire was so big then how come they are completely defeated at the end of RoTJ? (yes i say completely defeated because that is the offiical story. According to George Lucas and Leeland Chee nothing after RotJ is G-Canon) If they still had millions of star destroyers then killing the emperor and destroying a Death Star would do nothing. Also if the Emperor wasn't killed, Han and the ground troops and the Rebels still would have destroyed the Shield generator and the MF and Wedge would have still blown up the death start. Nothing Luke did or the Emperor would have done would have changed that. As for the Clone Army Where are these millions of ships? We never see them. Not in the movies or The Clone Wars televsion series. Plus in Attack of the Clones they say they have what 200,000 clones ready with another million ready to be made. That should give you an idea of how big the clone army really is. Unless they had a Star Destroyer for each clone I don't see the armies being as big as the EU makes them out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Snip. No, you assume those statements mean that is the entire Imperial Navy, no it states fleet, fleet, nothing more nothing less, there is nothing in the movies that state there is one fleet and one fleet only, where as we have multiple sources stating that one, there was 25,000+ SDs at the peak of the empire, that the Kuati and Corellians could build thousands of ships every few years, and that there was more than one fleet, you are stating the word fleet MUST translate to the entire Imperial Navy, it does not mean that, you assume it does, I will take the multiple canon sources over your assumption of two lines of dialogue, simple. Also, if the C canon was conflicting with the G canon movies, they would have been changed/retconned by Chee or some other part of LucasArts, they havent changed this, it is canon, simple. Edited February 7, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Again if the empire was so big then how come they are completely defeated at the end of RoTJ? (yes i say completely defeated because that is the offiical story. According to George Lucas and Leeland Chee nothing after RotJ is G-Canon) If they still had millions of star destroyers then killing the emperor and destroying a Death Star would do nothing. Also if the Emperor wasn't killed, Han and the ground troops and the Rebels still would have destroyed the Shield generator and the MF and Wedge would have still blown up the death start. Nothing Luke did or the Emperor would have done would have changed that. As for the Clone Army Where are these millions of ships? We never see them. Not in the movies or The Clone Wars televsion series. Plus in Attack of the Clones they say they have what 200,000 clones ready with another million ready to be made. That should give you an idea of how big the clone army really is. Unless they had a Star Destroyer for each clone I don't see the armies being as big as the EU makes them out to be. Cause you no nothing about politics and what happens when you cut off the head or military tactics. The Emperor was the Empire. He was the reason why the Galactic Republic became the Galactic Empire. The Rebels could NOT beat the Emperor in all out war so they fought in skirmishes and small battles hitting weak points such as the Death Star. The 1st one got destroyed because for one it was poorly designed and it was the only thing used to assault that moon which it failed to get in range to blow it up(I would of just blown up the Gas Giant, even if it didnt have enough firepower to "blow it up" I'm sure whatever it would do would have a severe effect on it's moons but that would of killed the movie) Its an insurgency. Just like the war in Iraq. You can't just throw the full force of your power to fight insurgents that tend to use hit and run tactics. Everything would of been fine for the Emperor if Vader didn't have a change of heart at the last second. I've been comparing these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets as of the year 2373, more than 150 member planets and thousands of colonies spread across 8,000 light years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Republic The Republic was made up of several hundred thousand worlds. The thing about the times is that the Republic was a galactic civilization in peace time for like thousands of years. There was no real need of a standing army until the Trade Federation which were the ones with the only real military force the Republic had. I'm saying that despite all that. When the Republic would need a military force I'm sure a few of those several hundred thousand planets can start producing more warships and recruiting soldiers for a conflict to fight off a Federation of 150 planets quite effortlessly. You cannot compare these 2 civilizations and pit them against each other. 1 controls an entire galaxy and has access to the resources of it's entire galaxy while another only has access to a very tiny portion of it's galaxy. Edited February 7, 2012 by Kabloosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No, you assume those statements mean that is the entire Imperial Navy, no it states fleet, fleet, nothing more nothing less, there is nothing in the movies that state there is one fleet and one fleet only, where as we have multiple sources stating that one, there was 25,000+ SDs at the peak of the empire, that the Kuati and Corellians could build thousands of ships every few years, and that there was more than one fleet, you are stating the word fleet MUST translate to the entire Imperial Navy, it does not mean that, you assume it does, I will take the multiple canon sources over your assumption of two lines of dialogue, simple. Also, if the C canon was conflicting with the G canon movies, they would have been changed/retconned by Chee or some other part of LucasArts, they havent changed this, it is canon, simple. they very rarely retcon things like that. Again even if we go with their being 25,000 ships in the empire it still doesn't change the power levels of their weapons which as I showed a few pages back There is still more evidence to show that we see the entire imperail navy at the end of ROTJ here are a few lines MON MOTHMA The data brought to us by the Bothan spies pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's new battle station. We also know that the weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But most important of all, we've learned that the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star. So he is referring to the fleet as being the whole of the imperial navy. EMPEROR Send the fleet to the far side of Endor. There it will stay until called for. But again the size of the Imperial Fleet is a mute point when we see the actual power levels of theri weapons and their inability to cause massive destruction. we see a Tie Fighter blast does the same damage to R2D2 as a blaster shot from a rifle. We see 2 logs can compleltley crush and destroy a Durasteel At-St. The list goes on and on about how their weapons are no where near as powerfull as people think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Cause you no nothing about politics and what happens when you cut off the head or military tactics. The Emperor was the Empire. He was the reason why the Galactic Republic became the Galactic Empire. The Rebels could NOT beat the Emperor in all out war so they fought in skirmishes and small battles hitting weak points such as the Death Star. The 1st one got destroyed because for one it was poorly designed and it was the only thing used to assault that moon which it failed to get in range to blow it up(I would of just blown up the Gas Giant, even if it didnt have enough firepower to "blow it up" I'm sure whatever it would do would have a severe effect on it's moons but that would of killed the movie) Its an insurgency. Just like the war in Iraq. You can't just throw the full force of your power to fight insurgents that tend to use hit and run tactics. Everything would of been fine for the Emperor if Vader didn't have a change of heart at the last second. I've been comparing these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Republic The thing about the times is that the Republic was a galactic civilization in peace time for like thousands of years. There was no real need of a standing army until the Trade Federation which were the ones with the only real military force the Republic had. I'm saying that despite all that. When the Republic would need a military force I'm sure a few of those several hundred thousand planets can start producing more warships and recruiting soldiers for a conflict to fight off a Federation of 150 planets quite effortlessly. You cannot compare these 2 civilizations and pit them against each other. 1 controls an entire galaxy and has access to the resources of it's entire galaxy while another only has access to a very tiny portion of it's galaxy. I know enough about policitcs that if the President and Vice President both die our Goverment wouldn't fall apart and completely collapse. Same goes with Dictorships. If Fidel Castro and his brother die then Cuba would still go on as a comunist country just under a different ruler. Think about Iraq we had to completely remove their entire governemnt to get them going. Same with Lybia they didn't just kill Momar they had to take out EVERYONE. I'm having a hard time even thinking of 1 country or war that lost when their leader was killed. We didn't drop the A bomb on Tokyo because we knew if we did and the Emperor was killed no one would be around to surrender. Again no even if Vadar or even LUKE turned to the Dark Side then the Death Star still would have blown up. The actions of Luke on the Death Star did NOT effect the ground or space battle. also again I don't care or even know enough about Star Trek to begin comparing I'm talking specfiically about the size and power of the Empire. Edited February 7, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 they very rarely retcon things like that. Again even if we go with their being 25,000 ships in the empire it still doesn't change the power levels of their weapons which as I showed a few pages back There is still more evidence to show that we see the entire imperail navy at the end of ROTJ here are a few lines MON MOTHMA The data brought to us by the Bothan spies pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's new battle station. We also know that the weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But most important of all, we've learned that the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star. So he is referring to the fleet as being the whole of the imperial navy. EMPEROR Send the fleet to the far side of Endor. There it will stay until called for. But again the size of the Imperial Fleet is a mute point when we see the actual power levels of theri weapons and their inability to cause massive destruction. we see a Tie Fighter blast does the same damage to R2D2 as a blaster shot from a rifle. We see 2 logs can compleltley crush and destroy a Durasteel At-St. The list goes on and on about how their weapons are no where near as powerfull as people think I blame poor writing. If you go by the movies the US military would mop the floor with any standing army Jedi included fielded in the Star Wars universe. The ONLY thing that would screw us is planetary bombdardment from the Star Destroyers. A Tie Fighter would lose to an F-16 much less the superior F-15/18 and 22. We would shoot them down before they could get into weapons range with long ranged missiles. Their army fights like its 1860 and we would artillery barrage them into oblivion. Every Jedi would be slaughtered by sniper teams and gunned down by competent foot soldiers. So in order to give this pathetic excuse for a military force some credit we gotta look at it in a boarder sense of terms and take into consideration a lot of this is not explained very well or presented well within the movies. My main point is the Galactic Republic wins simply because it's production capability is a million times greater then the United Federation. Even if they lost an entire fleet they could produce another one long before the United Federation could conquer a handful of the Republic's worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Regardless, you are making a massive assumption that the fleet they mention is the entire imperial navy, this is beyond ridiculous, there were numerous fleets each of which were headed by an SSD, nothing in the movies state otherwise, they could just as easily be talking about the fleet of one sector, as that is how the Imperial Navy works, multiple sectors with a fleet for each one, you are claiming their is just one fleet with no concrete evidence, we have evidence that states there was more than just one fleet to the imperial navy, hell Thrawn took his own fleet into the unknown regions. every single post by him has ignored all established canon and been nothing but assumptions which he mostly makes off of in-character hyperbole and vague comments maybe we should have Obi-wan's ghost come tell him how sometimes people say things that aren't true or are only true "from a certain point of view" ... lmao Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 MON MOTHMA The data brought to us by the Bothan spies pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's new battle station. We also know that the weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But most important of all, we've learned that the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star. She could very well be stating that the fleet defending the Death Star, SSD Executor's fleet, is spread out, again you assume that translates into the entire Imperial Navy. EMPEROR Send the fleet to the far side of Endor. There it will stay until called for. Again, SSD Executor's fleet, also take into account this, if Endor's fleet was what you said it was, why did they name the Executor? When something like a ship is the only one of it's kind, it is not named unless there are others of the same design, which we know there is, sorry but your argument just doesn't stand up in the face of other canon, you are interpreting dialogue and making assumptions out of it, not taking actual canon facts and showing that it is definitively so, where as there is a huge amount of canon that states exactly opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabloosh Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I know enough about policitcs that if the President and Vice President both die our Goverment wouldn't fall apart and completely collapse. Same goes with Dictorships. If Fidel Castro and his brother die then Cuba would still go on as a comunist country just under a different ruler. Think about Iraq we had to completely remove their entire governemnt to get them going. Same with Lybia they didn't just kill Momar they had to take out EVERYONE. I'm having a hard time even thinking of 1 country or war that lost when their leader was killed. We didn't drop the A bomb on Tokyo because we knew if we did and the Emperor was killed no one would be around to surrender. Again no even if Vadar or even LUKE turned to the Dark Side then the Death Star still would have blown up. The actions of Luke on the Death Star did NOT effect the ground or space battle. also again I don't care or even know enough about Star Trek to begin comparing I'm talking specfiically about the size and power of the Empire. What you don't get is the rebels represented the people of the Galactic Republic which just so happened to be most everyone in the Galactic Empire. A giant revolution happened when everyone found out the Emperor was dead. Yes, some of the loyal Imperial forces tried to quell it but without their leader they didn't have any real point anymore did they? The Galactic Empire was still in it's infancy. The Rebels represented those still loyal to the senate which was the true government of the galaxy. See where I am getting at here? Regardless, this is an entire strawman beyond the original point. Galactic Empire/Republic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> United Federation. The most important aspect of war is production and the Galactic Empire/Republic has more planets then ships the United Federation could ever dream about fielding in a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The most important aspect of war is production and the Galactic Empire/Republic has more planets then ships the United Federation could ever dream about fielding in a war. aye all about the beans and bullets it always comes down to logistics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WowWasBetter Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What you don't get is the rebels represented the people of the Galactic Republic which just so happened to be most everyone in the Galactic Empire. A giant revolution happened when everyone found out the Emperor was dead. Yes, some of the loyal Imperial forces tried to quell it but without their leader they didn't have any real point anymore did they? The Galactic Empire was still in it's infancy. The Rebels represented those still loyal to the senate which was the true government of the galaxy. See where I am getting at here? Regardless, this is an entire strawman beyond the original point. Galactic Empire/Republic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> United Federation. The most important aspect of war is production and the Galactic Empire/Republic has more planets then ships the United Federation could ever dream about fielding in a war. 1) 30 years for a government is hardly "infancy". That's an entire generation that grew up knowing only the empire. 2) production does not win wars on its own. Cases in point: American civil war was not won because the north had more men or more factories. It was won because general grant fought with the mentality of "I outnumber you 2:1 so if I kill 2 of you for every 3 I lose I'm winning ". 2ns case Vietnam. We out numbered, out gunned, out fought the Viet Cong and we still lost. Iraq and Afghanistan same story as Vietnam. 3) using red matter trek can create temporary black holes wherever and whenever the imperial fleet shows up. Doesn't matter how many ships you bring to that fight. 4) trek can literally manufacture gods by taking people with ESP and slamming them into the galactic barrier (TOS "where no man has gone") 5) time travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsdad Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 1) 30 years for a government is hardly "infancy". That's an entire generation that grew up knowing only the empire. 2) production does not win wars on its own. Cases in point: American civil war was not won because the north had more men or more factories. It was won because general grant fought with the mentality of "I outnumber you 2:1 so if I kill 2 of you for every 3 I lose I'm winning ". 2ns case Vietnam. We out numbered, out gunned, out fought the Viet Cong and we still lost. Iraq and Afghanistan same story as Vietnam. 3) using red matter trek can create temporary black holes wherever and whenever the imperial fleet shows up. Doesn't matter how many ships you bring to that fight. 4) trek can literally manufacture gods by taking people with ESP and slamming them into the galactic barrier (TOS "where no man has gone") 5) time travel. Wow, just wow... Can someone else take this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Wow, just wow... Can someone else take this one? I saw his screenname and ignored his whole post Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WowWasBetter Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wow, just wow... Can someone else take this one? Irans government was created in the 70s, do you count them as being "in its infancy"? What about israel created after ww2? As for grant, every union general before him retreated as soon as the confederacy started inflicting heavy casualties, grant fought on regardless of the body count. That method of fighting coupled with sherman burning a swath through the south won the war. Men and guns didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 every single post by him has ignored all established canon and been nothing but assumptions which he mostly makes off of in-character hyperbole and vague comments maybe we should have Obi-wan's ghost come tell him how sometimes people say things that aren't true or are only true "from a certain point of view" ... lmao no you are the one ignoring Canon. I am following the canon system set up by George Lucas and mainteined by Leeland Chee. Which states G-canon is everything in the movies, scripts, offiical novelizations, and anything George Lucas says. Everything in C-canon or the EU to be considered actual canon MUST conform to G-canon. If it doesn't then it is not canon. The movies clearly show you what the empire is capable of. You can't pick and choose what you like from G-canon. That is the word of God. Tell me how do we know how fast the Millennium Falcon can go? (hint its because of 1 offhand comment by Han.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I blame poor writing. If you go by the movies the US military would mop the floor with any standing army Jedi included fielded in the Star Wars universe. The ONLY thing that would screw us is planetary bombdardment from the Star Destroyers. A Tie Fighter would lose to an F-16 much less the superior F-15/18 and 22. We would shoot them down before they could get into weapons range with long ranged missiles. Their army fights like its 1860 and we would artillery barrage them into oblivion. Every Jedi would be slaughtered by sniper teams and gunned down by competent foot soldiers. So in order to give this pathetic excuse for a military force some credit we gotta look at it in a boarder sense of terms and take into consideration a lot of this is not explained very well or presented well within the movies. My main point is the Galactic Republic wins simply because it's production capability is a million times greater then the United Federation. Even if they lost an entire fleet they could produce another one long before the United Federation could conquer a handful of the Republic's worlds. rofl you blame poor writting? You can't pick and choose what you like out of the movies to be considered canon. G-canon is everything in the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) no you are the one ignoring Canon. I am following the canon system set up by George Lucas and mainteined by Leeland Chee. Which states G-canon is everything in the movies, scripts, offiical novelizations, and anything George Lucas says. Everything in C-canon or the EU to be considered actual canon MUST conform to G-canon. If it doesn't then it is not canon. The movies clearly show you what the empire is capable of. You can't pick and choose what you like from G-canon. That is the word of God. Tell me how do we know how fast the Millennium Falcon can go? (hint its because of 1 offhand comment by Han.) lol no.. you take lines out of context then make vague assumption on them and claim they are canon despite the fact your interpretations of them goes against established canon that has already been approved by Leeland Chee, GL and said canon rules you like to quote so often yet don't seem to understand Edited February 7, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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