The Klingon Defence Forces Vs The Imperial Fleet

[jarjarloves]

Well Porkins was completely destroyed by turbolasers....and that one X-wing with Arvel before he crashed his A-wing into the bridge of the SSD was completely destroyed.

 

the A-wing got hit several times which caused him to spin out of control.

 

 

In Phantom Meance the Queens ship is shot several times (one shot some how destroys the deflector sheild generator before their shields go down) it then takes several more hits and it is fine.

 

Lukes Snow Speeder is hit several times before it goes down and it doesn't explode either.

 

In Attack of the Clones Obi Wan had Slave 1's blasters hit right at his feet which caused a large explosion but he was un hurt just pushed back.

 

In A New Hope. Wedge is hit several times and just has to fly away.

 

In Empire The Milineium Falcon gets hit repeadtly by the Star Destroyers guns even after their shields fail and yet they barely get scratched.

 

So yeah there is no way the power levels for the weapons are at the Million megaton that the ISC says they are.

Edited February 6, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Rayla_Felana]

the A-wing got hit several times which caused him to spin out of control.

 

 

In Phantom Meance the Queens ship is shot several times (one shot some how destroys the deflector sheild generator before their shields go down) it then takes several more hits and it is fine.

 

Lukes Snow Speeder is hit several times before it goes down and it doesn't explode either.

 

In Attack of the Clones Obi Wan had Slave 1's blasters hit right at his feet which caused a large explosion but he was un hurt just pushed back.

 

In A New Hope. Wedge is hit several times and just has to fly away.

 

In Empire The Milineium Falcon gets hit repeadtly by the Star Destroyers guns even after their shields fail and yet they barely get scratched.

 

So yeah there is no way the power levels for the weapons are at the Million megaton that the ISC says they are.

 

I don't believe they are nearly as powerful as the ISC states either, but we cannot just assume they are strong/weak as we don't have actual facts to debate with, also I am fairly sure the TIE Fighters hit the Millennium Falcon not the Star Destroyer, even if the shields and weaponry on a Star Destroyer aren't as powerful as on a Klingon warbird(?) the sheer amount of SDs and other ships would simply win through attrition.

 

The difference here is, the Klingon Empire is a part of the Alpha quadrant(Delta?) the Galactic Empire is a galaxy spanning war machine, built specifically by Sidious to answer the threat of the Vong.

[jarjarloves]

I don't believe they are nearly as powerful as the ISC states either, but we cannot just assume they are strong/weak as we don't have actual facts to debate with, also I am fairly sure the TIE Fighters hit the Millennium Falcon not the Star Destroyer, even if the shields and weaponry on a Star Destroyer aren't as powerful as on a Klingon warbird(?) the sheer amount of SDs and other ships would simply win through attrition.

 

The difference here is, the Klingon Empire is a part of the Alpha quadrant(Delta?) the Galactic Empire is a galaxy spanning war machine, built specifically by Sidious to answer the threat of the Vong.

 

before the MF gets into the asteroid field its the SD hitting the MF. Also when they get out of the Asteroid Field before they get onto the back of the SD.

 

but yeah weapon strenght is the big arguement of these things and it's bascilly just a big circle. with no end in site.

 

as for the Vong statement.... well no not really that goes against the canon. Not to mention the Vong storyline was written well after the movies.

 

 

ok got to go teach a class now.

Edited February 6, 2012 by jarjarloves

[RoadtoArkham]

If you're going into crew make-up, Star Wars has it, hands-down. As far as I remember, Star Trek had nothing compared to the power of the Force-users. Even in the OT, Vader could force choke people in completely different starships.

 

Then, if you want, like, an "All-star Crew", Star Wars would have...

-Thrawn

-Vader

-Boba Fett

-Palpatine with his Battle Meditation

- various Dark Jedi and Sith

-and on and on and on

 

Star Trek

-Jean-Luc

-Kirk

-Spock

-McCoy

-Data

-Worf

-George Takei

-Scotty

[Ri_Aminus]

imps have big strong ships, powerful weapons etc....less maneuverability but id say their shields would be more effective than klingon ships....

 

hard to call, the sheer amount of klingon ships and their mantra "never throw it away" may give them an edge too

 

hmm....draw i think....

[enigmayshi]

It proves a lot more than that. It proves that trying to number-crunch who would beat up who is idiotic, especially when said numbers are based upon inconsistent special effects.

 

I was never trying to state the specific power outputs as anything reasonable. Despite special effects the one thing we can draw on from the scene of Star Destroyers blowing up asteroids as they move through the field is that their guns have enough concentrated power to vape asteroids with ease. As to exact numbers we can't figure any of that out due to, not knowing the asteroids make up, nor the actual explosion beyond the fact they blew up the asteroid due to the special effects conundrum.

 

So we can definately assume that Star Wars Capital Ship guns pack a big wallop if they are just casually annihilating asteroids in one shot.

[jarjarloves]

I was never trying to state the specific power outputs as anything reasonable. Despite special effects the one thing we can draw on from the scene of Star Destroyers blowing up asteroids as they move through the field is that their guns have enough concentrated power to vape asteroids with ease. As to exact numbers we can't figure any of that out due to, not knowing the asteroids make up, nor the actual explosion beyond the fact they blew up the asteroid due to the special effects conundrum.

 

So we can definately assume that Star Wars Capital Ship guns pack a big wallop if they are just casually annihilating asteroids in one shot.

 

but that goes back to the asteroids not actually being destroyed by the force of the turbo laser since it's the same special effect used when the asteroid collides with the SD.

 

thus the eternal loop of logic continues.

[Kegelz]

If you're going into crew make-up, Star Wars has it, hands-down. As far as I remember, Star Trek had nothing compared to the power of the Force-users. Even in the OT, Vader could force choke people in completely different starships.

 

Then, if you want, like, an "All-star Crew", Star Wars would have...

-Thrawn

-Vader

-Boba Fett

-Palpatine with his Battle Meditation

- various Dark Jedi and Sith

-and on and on and on

 

Star Trek

-Jean-Luc

-Kirk

-Spock

-McCoy

-Data

-Worf

-George Takei

-Scotty

 

This assumes only "good" forces from Star Trek would exist in this hypothetical battle. What about Species 8472, Borg, the Q Continuum and if we're using stats from outside of the SW movies, the Xindi (I think the theme song from Enterprise could single handedly defeat Imp forces alone!). The Xindi created a "Death Star" all their own in a relatively short amount of time. The technology surely wouldn't have been lost after a couple hundred years.

 

Power outputs from both universes would surely have to be brought in line for this hypothetical battle too. The power required to destroy a planet in SW is much MUCH greater than that in the ST universe.

 

Also, what if the Borg assimilated a Jedi or Sith? Would the collective be able to utilize the force? The Borg operate in harmony but I highly doubt it's anyway similar to that of the Jedi.

 

 

Ultimately this is pretty silly to speculate as the combined forces of ST, SW, B5, BSG and so on would easily be defeated (if Q was dismissed) if they met the forces of 40k. I think "Shaka, when the walls fell" would be a pretty good description of their attempt to defeat 40k forces.

[jarjarloves]

If you're going into crew make-up, Star Wars has it, hands-down. As far as I remember, Star Trek had nothing compared to the power of the Force-users. Even in the OT, Vader could force choke people in completely different starships.

 

Then, if you want, like, an "All-star Crew", Star Wars would have...

-Thrawn

-Vader

-Boba Fett

-Palpatine with his Battle Meditation

- various Dark Jedi and Sith

-and on and on and on

 

Star Trek

-Jean-Luc

-Kirk

-Spock

-McCoy

-Data

-Worf

-George Takei

-Scotty

well in that case the Good guys always win so

[Kelticfury]

ooh ooh! I wanna play!

 

* put on nerdgirl hat*

 

 

trek= future

wars= distant past ( and for the added record sw has cloaking too but it's considered fairly useless)

 

 

E.T was left on earth in the early 1980's

 

His species got funding for their extra galactic trip from the galactic senate and techno-union during the height of the Clone Wars.

time taken to leave their galaxy ( lets assume it's Andromeda ) cross space at X hyperspace multipliers then factor in the time it takes for the trek universe to come to what it is in our own galaxy ...

 

...carry the five......

 

Ewoks have evolved into Reapers

 

^^^ This

 

I love nerd girls.

[enigmayshi]

but that goes back to the asteroids not actually being destroyed by the force of the turbo laser since it's the same special effect used when the asteroid collides with the SD.

 

thus the eternal loop of logic continues.

 

No it doesn't, because despite that being a special effect that gets used twice for two different scenarios we can assume that their intended effect by the design team was. "Damn these guns can blow up asteroids." Since that is the most likely conclusion one would draw on when watching these movies for entertainment value.

 

Since we already know it is illogical to assume they were attempting to imply the asteroids were made up of magic material that blows up on contact.

 

The special effect is a placeholder essentially illustrating the guns can destroy asteroids. But due to the effect being a place holder we cannot make any technical assertions beyond, "Their guns are strong enough to vape asteroids."

Which while indicates a good deal of destructive power, since we lack the information as to the reality of the explosions actual size as well as what the asteroids of the field were primarily made up of still leaves a great deal of leeway in two directions as to the guns power.

[J-Sheridan]

Star Wars vs. Star Trek in five miniutes

 

Regardless, the main point remains the same. The Empire could curbstomp every single fleet in the Star Trek universe and roast their planets COMBINED let alone against individual empires.

 

Whine and moan about how many ships the Empire all you like - Based on a SINGLE line of dialogue which dosent even SAY anything about how big the fleet is.

 

You have to be extremely naive or a blatant liar to claim Han Solo says the Empire has less than 1000 ships.

 

EVEN WITH 1000 STAR DESTROYERS IT TAKES 3 STAR DESTROYERS TO DESTROY A PLANET IN 1 DAY.

 

Canon does NOT contradict this in the movies as such that number stands.

 

Empire wins.

End of Story.

Edited February 6, 2012 by J-Sheridan

[jarjarloves]

No it doesn't, because despite that being a special effect that gets used twice for two different scenarios we can assume that their intended effect by the design team was. "Damn these guns can blow up asteroids." Since that is the most likely conclusion one would draw on when watching these movies for entertainment value.

 

Since we already know it is illogical to assume they were attempting to imply the asteroids were made up of magic material that blows up on contact.

 

The special effect is a placeholder essentially illustrating the guns can destroy asteroids. But due to the effect being a place holder we cannot make any technical assertions beyond, "Their guns are strong enough to vape asteroids."

Which while indicates a good deal of destructive power, since we lack the information as to the reality of the explosions actual size as well as what the asteroids of the field were primarily made up of still leaves a great deal of leeway in two directions as to the guns power.

 

Like I said before I completly agree with you that's what happened.

 

However due to the way the star wars canon is set up is everything that is in the movies is 100% fact and that's the way it happpens we have to go by even the most primitive special effects.

 

So that means the asteroid that hits the star destroyer actually explodes like the one hit by the turbo laser

 

Stupid but that's how the star wars canon goes

[jarjarloves]

Star Wars vs. Star Trek in five miniutes

 

Regardless, the main point remains the same. The Empire could curbstomp every single fleet in the Star Trek universe and roast their planets COMBINED let alone against individual empires.

 

Whine and moan about how many ships the Empire all you like - Based on a SINGLE line of dialogue which dosent even SAY anything about how big the fleet is.

 

You have to be extremely naive or a blatant liar to claim Han Solo says the Empire has less than 1000 ships.

 

EVEN WITH 1000 STAR DESTROYERS IT TAKES 3 STAR DESTROYERS TO DESTROY A PLANET IN 1 DAY.

 

Canon does NOT contradict this in the movies as such that number stands.

 

Empire wins.

End of Story.

Hate to break it to you but stardestroyer.net and that essay have been debunked.

 

Like I said before saxtons weapon numbers are wrong and using them go against canon

 

3 SD destroying a planet breaks canon as well for several reasons. Most obviously being if they have even 1000 SD and 3 can destroy a planet then there would be no need for the death star. Also Han says the entire star fleet can't destroy a planet

[WowWasBetter]

Star Wars vs. Star Trek in five miniutes

 

Regardless, the main point remains the same. The Empire could curbstomp every single fleet in the Star Trek universe and roast their planets COMBINED let alone against individual empires.

 

Whine and moan about how many ships the Empire all you like - Based on a SINGLE line of dialogue which dosent even SAY anything about how big the fleet is.

 

You have to be extremely naive or a blatant liar to claim Han Solo says the Empire has less than 1000 ships.

 

EVEN WITH 1000 STAR DESTROYERS IT TAKES 3 STAR DESTROYERS TO DESTROY A PLANET IN 1 DAY.

 

Canon does NOT contradict this in the movies as such that number stands.

 

Empire wins.

End of Story.

 

Challenge accepted.

1) it is impossible to compare the tech between the two since both are inconsistent within their own stories much less reality (the warp scale is an example of this). Though trek is more true to real science than wars.

2) since we cannot compare the tech directly we must compare the attributes of the universes. In trek we have the captains constantly coming up with new tech and tactics. Compare to wars where we have had no tech advances in at least 4000 years. And without new advances in tech, there are no advances in tactics. The usual counter argument is that the tech has hit the ceiling which is nonsense since the rataka could teleport and the republic/empire can't.

3) trek can breed gods. Take some people with ESP slam them into the galactic barrier and BAM gods (Original series "where no man has gone")

4) I see your death star and raise you the planet killers (yes plural)

5) (fanboy) kirk could out fight the entire imperial fleet captaining a cardboard box.

[J-Sheridan]

Hate to break it to you but stardestroyer.net and that essay have been debunked.

 

Because you say so ?

Provide proof or will you continue being a dishonest troll ?

 

Like I said before saxtons weapon numbers are wrong and using them go against canon

 

Because you say so ?

Provide proof or will you continue being a dishonest troll ?

 

3 SD destroying a planet breaks canon as well for several reasons. Most obviously being if they have even 1000 SD and 3 can destroy a planet then there would be no need for the death star. Also Han says the entire star fleet can't destroy a planet

 

The Death Star was a Tarkin Doctrine battle station fool, it wasnt just to blow planets up it was designed to be a mobile fortress meant to terrorise people into doing what they were told or else.

Additionally, the Death Star was the answer to planatary shields, I.E the Things that stop 20+ ISDs from wasting entire planets and prior to this required Torpedo Spheres to breach

 

Han says exactly jack about how many ships the Empire has - End of discussion.

At best the only thing you can claim is Han BELIEVES the ENTIRE FLEET cannot cause the same level of destruction as the Death Star caused.

 

That does not contradict ANYTHING about planatary bombardments being possible or the scale of damage that can be caused. As such, BDZ operations are entirely possible and it takes 3 Star Destroyers less than 1 day to achieve.

 

Suck it up and deal with it or pony up your own numbers.

 

Even the lazy method of comparison has the Empire massively outgunning any Star Trek power. Or are you that dishonest your going to claim the Riker's dialogue clearly dosent indicate the ENTIRE COMPLIMENT OF THE E-D is unable to achieve what Jango Fett did with a single mine ?

 

Or... that Star Wars travel times and power generation is so massively more powerful than Star Trek its just sad.

 

What do you think they are using all that power for exactly ? - Its not their washing machines and the power figures ARE canon.

[jarjarloves]

At the dentist so this is gonna be quick answer me this how can an asteroid blow up rlyhe same way if it is hit by a laser or by colliding? This is the basis for Dacrsaxtons numberss. More to coke later or just read my old post Edited February 6, 2012 by jarjarloves

[J-Sheridan]

At the dentist so this is gonna be quick answer me this how can an asteroid blow up rlyhe same way if it is hit by a laser or by colliding? This is the basis for Dacrsaxtons numberss. More to coke later or just read my old post

 

Lets make this abundantly simple. Screw Saxton's numbers.

 

Jango Fett drops a mine that shreds an entire asteroid field

E-D cannot destroy one asteroid with it's entire torpedo compliment

 

It takes weeks to months for Fed ships to cross their own territory

It takes hours for Empire ships to travel across the galaxy

 

It takes 6 months for the Empire to build the DSII

The Federation takes just as long if not longer to build a single E-D

 

The E-D - one of the most powerful ships for 7 years of Star Trek could barely manage to sustain a barrage against a Borg cube for miniutes in BOBW at point blank range

 

ROTJ - The entire fleet is battling at ranges of thousands of KM until they finally reach point blank at several km

 

Star Trek - No ship has ever shown the ability to do much more than attack one target at a time

 

Star Wars - Ships have omni-directional turrets all over their hulls allowing them to engage and sustain fights against multiple target,

 

 

Result: ISD hyperspaces in between the Dominion and Fed fleet in Sacrifice of Angels and can literally engage both fleets equally AND do it before they even get within weapon range.

 

When they do - ISD zip to hyperspace and can be on the other side of the galaxy while the poor ST powers scratch their heads taking 70 years to catch up.

 

 

The numbers only ADD to the utter curbstomp the Empire can inflict. Sheer logic and onscreen evidence makes it abundantly clear SW is superior in firepower, speed and power generation.

 

Whine, lie and continue your dishonest garbage about the numbers all you want. Onscreen evidence taken direct from the movie demonstrate SW capabilities as being superior.

[jarjarloves]

This is a disscusuon not a fight. Do not get rude and do not accuse me of lying or bieing dishonest

I ask you what where the asteroids made up of and how does jangos bombs work.

[WowWasBetter]

Lets make this abundantly simple. Screw Saxton's numbers.

 

Allow me. In star trek the motion picture it shows the enterprise destroying an asteroid with a single torpedo, negating riker saying that it would take the entire payload of torpedos to destroy one. The point is TECH LEVELS ARE BULL. They change ability depending on what is more appropriate for that particular scene. Go look at memory alpha and educate yourself about both universes

[J-Sheridan]

This is a disscusuon not a fight. Do not get rude and do not accuse me of lying or bieing dishonest

I ask you what where the asteroids made up of and how does jangos bombs work.

 

Stop lying and being dishonest then.

 

Riker says E-D cannot destroy a 5km asteroid with the entire torpedo arsenal = True / False

Jango Fett dropped bombs that shreded an entire asteroid field = True / False

 

Therefore. Jango Fett can drop a bomb that does more damage than the entire torpedo compliment of the E-D.

 

You want to whine that the movies are the only thing that are canon - fine, we have a canon movie straight from Gerorge Lucas that shows what a single bomb dropped by a bounty hunter can do.

 

 

Star Trek ships take days to travel their own territory = True / False

Star Wars ships take hours to travel across the galaxy = I.E AOTC Padme states the Jedi would have to cross half the galaxy to get to Geonosis

 

In the space of a day... they get there. Hows that dialogue is always right working for you there, buddy ?

 

Continue to be dishonest but these are facts which come straight from on-screen evidence. Whine, moan and try to cloud the issue all you like but Star Wars canon > You.

[J-Sheridan]

Allow me. In star trek the motion picture it shows the enterprise destroying an asteroid with a single torpedo, negating riker saying that it would take the entire payload of torpedos to destroy one. The point is TECH LEVELS ARE BULL. They change ability depending on what is more appropriate for that particular scene. Go look at memory alpha and educate yourself about both universes

 

You just admitted the E-A is more powerful than the E-D.

However, we have dialogue straight from Picard to Scotty that states the E-D is far superior to Scotties Enterprise. TNG Relics

 

Riker + Picard + On screen Evidence > One example from the E-A.

 

By your insane logic, I can hearby use the maximum example of Empire firepower in the Death Star and say it negates anything we see later of anything less.

 

Result: Star Trek gets curbstomped even harder. Thanks for playing.

[WowWasBetter]

You just admitted the E-A is more powerful than the E-D.

However, we have dialogue straight from Picard to Scotty that states the E-D is far superior to Scotties Enterprise. TNG Relics

 

Riker + Picard + On screen Evidence > One example from the E-A.

 

By your insane logic, I can hearby use the maximum example of Empire firepower in the Death Star and say it negates anything we see later of anything less.

 

Result: Star Trek gets curbstomped even harder. Thanks for playing.

 

God you're dense. I'm pointing out that the power of the technology varies in both universes depending on what is more dramatically appropriate for that particular scene/movie. Therefore you can't compare the power levels of the technology because the power levels are INTERNALLY INCONSISTENT which eliminates them as evidence.

 

And for the record the planet killers would eat the death star for breakfast.

[J-Sheridan]

And for the record the planet killers would eat the death star for breakfast.

 

The same planet killer that was destroyed by a single ship dumping enough energy directly into the mouth ?

 

Which is going to be hilariously easy for Star Wars to do when they pour turbolasers or drop mines that shred asteroid fields down it's throat.

 

And for the record, the Klingon Empire dosent have planet killers. So... yeah, whats your point beyond your rage fulled fanboy defence of Star Trek... by reaching for something that was a one-shot wonder the Klingons dont even have access to.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

The same planet killer that was destroyed by a single ship dumping enough energy directly into the mouth ?

 

Which is going to be hilariously easy for Star Wars to do when they pour turbolasers or drop mines that shred asteroid fields down it's throat.

 

And for the record, the Klingon Empire dosent have planet killers. So... yeah, whats your point beyond your rage fulled fanboy defence of Star Trek... by reaching for something that was a one-shot wonder the Klingons dont even have access to.

 

Klingons can destroy a planet's atmosphere in seconds, dudebro.

 

And really, you don't get it. He's not pulling a rage filled fanboy defence: you are. All he's doing is telling you how silly it is to compare the two, let alone get all worked up about it like you are.

Edited February 6, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs