The Klingon Defence Forces Vs The Imperial Fleet

[PeepsMcJuggs]

Hasn't Superman won this fight already?

 

KRYPTONITE LIGHTSABER CRYSTAL!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

herpderp

[J-Sheridan]

and a single A-wing takes out the SSD.

 

Right, the entire fleet shooting the SSD, the screwed up mess of the battle and the failure of the bridge deflector shields had NOTHING to do with it.

 

Clearly a single A-Wing ramming into the bridge instantly KO'ed the ship on it's own.

 

Which somehow translates into the Klingons being able to defeat the Empire... how ?

 

 

You almost got the Han Solo quote here it is

 

"The entire Star Fleet couldn't destroy a whole planet it would take 1,000 ships with more fire power...."

 

1,000 ships - The Empire has more than that, simple logic would make that obvious

Do you realise how big the Star Wars galaxy is ?

 

Do you realise THOUSANDS of ships were being hurled back and forth by both the Republic and the Sepratist forces in SINGLE BATTLES and those were just SKIRMISHES.

 

The Empire reached a peak of 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers

 

it was estimated that the combined firepower of the entire fleet could almost do as much damage as two Death Stars.

 

The Empire has a lot more than 1,000 ships which as a result makes Han Solo's dialogue wrong both from simple logic and direct canon examples.

 

So from that we get that planet killers don't exist in the Empire's age (with the exception of the Death Star), the entire Empire fleet is less then 1,000 ships and finally they are not as powerful as the EU tends to make them.

 

EU is canon. Deal with it.

 

Result: Base Delta Zero

 

The ability to destroy planets has existed for a long time. Taris makes that abundantly clear with a single Star Destroyer causing the damage we see ingame.

 

As far as the EU is concerned, other super-weapons were created.

The Sun Crusher,

Corellian Centerpoint Station

Galaxy Gun

 

Infact: Here is just the complete list

 

Now I think you are also getting that line confused with what Doddana says about the Death Star during the briefing

 

"The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a

firepower greater than half the star fleet. It's defenses are designed

around a direct large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be

able to penetrate the outer defense."

 

He is saying that all the defensive turrets combined are about half the strength of the fleet. Hence the reason why they don't send in all their capital ships in against it. They would get their butts kicked.

 

This is also why in RotJ they CAN send all their capital ships in because it's not finished yet and doesn't have the defensive abilities of Death Star 1.

 

ROTJ was a desperate move by the Rebellion and they stayed far away from the Death Star. Throw in the obvious plot point of the Emperor forcing everyone to hold back because he wanted to make a dramatic show of force.

 

Han Solo's number was wrong.

The Death Star Defences equal half the star fleet - You dont know how big that Star Fleet is which puts the FULL starfleet firepower anywhere from equal to greater than the Death Star.

 

If we use 25,000 Star Destroyers - That means the Death Star has more firepower than 13,000 Star Destroyers.

 

 

It required the combined alliance of the Klingons, Federation and Romulans to beat the Dominion.

 

The sheer amount of Star Destroyers the Empire has alone would obliterate any AQ power without including all the OTHER ships they have.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

EU is canon. Deal with it.

 

Result: Base Delta Zero

 

The ability to destroy planets has existed for a long time. Taris makes that abundantly clear with a single Star Destroyer causing the damage we see ingame.

 

As far as the EU is concerned, other super-weapons were created.

The Sun Crusher,

Corellian Centerpoint Station

Galaxy Gun

 

Infact: Here is just the complete list

 

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Indri_VIII

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trilithium_weapon

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Genesis_Device

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_superweapon

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Red_matter

 

This is why superweapons make these conversations boring.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Superweapons are OP, they need to be nerfed.

[BigBadBert]

Imperial fleet would win against KDF depending on what time period you pick and which galaxy. The imperial fleet has force users and they may be able to sense the cloaked klingon ships, and the force is the most powerful thing in the star wars universe. The Klingons have no defence against the force. The Klingons have not discovered the force or it simply doesnt exist in our galaxy.

 

Im not to sure exactly but the Imperial space travel and technology has been around for tens of thousands of years. The Klingons and the Star Trek universe is much newer and space travel is relatively new to the Klingons compared to the Imperials. If you took the Klingons and Imperials with the exact same amount of time to develop, the Klingons may have develop some sort of technology that is superior to the Imperials. In Star Trek the Technology seems to develop at a faster rate than in Star Wars. The Klingons or some other faction may even discover the force.

 

The force is the biggest advantage the Imperials have.

[enigmayshi]

These debates are often pointless since it usually de-evolves into sheer fandom and random blurbs thrown back and forth. Which I am now contributing to.

 

I mainly want to deal with a few things that I've seen brought up.

 

 

A. Lasers being ineffective against Star Trek Ships like the enterprise due to the Navigational Deflector Array.

 

1. Star Wars Turbo-Lasers, Blasters, and such are not Coherent Light Beams, they are essentially standard flare Energy Weapons and had the word 'Laser' in it because it was the word of the day for Sci-Fi when Star Wars was first made. But they function in no way that is similiar to how Lasers in our world and ST function with firing beams of coherent light.

 

2. Even if one allowed the Nav Array to render immune to Star Wars Laser weaponry(Which it wouldn't but we're pretending here for this paragraph anyway) The Navigation Array only gives about a 45 degree arc of coverage IN FRONT of the ship. Fire a Laser from any other direction at the Enterprise and you will need shields to stop it. The Nav Deflectors primary purpose is to deflect/destroy small space material like micro-meteorites in the ships path. Hence why it only has a limitted forward arc since that is the direction of travel the ship takes for 99% of its life.

 

B. Cloaking Being the Trump Card that Defeats all for we will use ambush tactics that the Empire will never stop ever....no really they never will because Cloak is awesome.

 

Cloaking in the ST universe comes with severe drawbacks, the only ship that managed to overcome those drawbacks entirely was the Reman Warbird Scimitar. Every other ship with a Cloaking device has had to deal with the drawbacks even the Klingons.

1. Cloaking and Decloaking present a window of weakness where the Ships Shields are down, and its Weapons are offline leaving it extremely vulnerable to attack. You cannot hit the 'Decloak' button and open fire instantly the ship has to divert power back into the weapon systems as well as bring the shield arrays back online to deflect harm. Both of these actions take time.

 

2. Cloaking severely limits a ships speed. That is if they want to remain undetected, generally in trek the faster a ship decides to move at warp the more easily they can be detected. If I recall correctly most vessels don't exceed Warp 4 or 5 while cloaked because of this.

 

 

What does this mean for the Empire? Well it means your massive armada of cloaked ships will travel slowly unless they wish to be found. Which only exasperates the Empires FTL speed advantage even further. Given the fleet you set out to destroy might be long gone by the time you arrive.

 

It also means the Klingons would probably do what they generally do, IE enter the system at high warp and then cloak before reaching optimal combat range and crawl up to their target.

 

Empire Sensor systems would be able to detect a vessel at warp for the sole reason that the ship doesn't leave this plane of space. And since Warp Requires a lot of energy they would pick up high energy signatures on approach.

 

So the Empire is possibly alerted to the enemy presence, but lets give best case scenario. Klingon squadron manages to sneak up undetected on the Imperials. For the scenario we are assuming that Both sides are aware of each other on a galactic scale and warring.

 

Klingons do the fans patented unbeatable 'Decloak' and surprise attack one of the Imperial Star destroyers, the closests ships opening Salvo would possibly make it through and hit the destroyers rather beefy armor(Even the command section is armored, the A-Wing at Endor got lucky because the Stars had completely aligned for that plot moment)

 

Command Section armor gets rather badly damaged from the alpha, and her shields come on promptly preventing any further salvos, and by this point the empire ships are already readying to counter attack. The Klingon ships initiate the next phase of their unbeatable cloaking strategy and start to recloak.

 

Recloaking presents about a 2 second time span of vulnerability. As the shields drop the instant a ship starts to cloak and takes around 2 seconds or so for it to fully cloak. (Plus I can specifically quote Riker stating "We'll have two seconds of vulnerability...")

 

The Klingon ships would mostly likely manage to recloak just as the Star Destroyers began to fire. Now what happens?

 

The Star Destroyers KEEP firing, an Imperial Star Destroyer has several dozen Turbo Laser battiers in addition to a couple dozen Ion Cannons. They also have their own local reactors that can be used independently of the ships main reactor. They would fill the local area of space with so much firepower that the klingon squadron would start getting destroyed by 'Lucky Shots' revealing where they were and the guns then training in. Hell the lucky shot alone would probably be enough to knock the ship out of Cloak since they are shieldless during this time.

 

For as much as people tout about Star Trek ships being able to run circles around Star Wars ships, I've never in any of the shows seen them perform any maneuvers or feats of speed that would significantly impair the chances of a Turbo Laser being able to hit them.

 

If the Klingons wanted to continue this battle they would withdraw to a safe distance to decloak without being ripped to shreds and fight fully visible so they'd have the protection of their shields. As a Cloak and dagger strike won't win against an enemy utilizing large and very durable ships that can filled the nearby area of space with weapons fire. Because that 2 second window of vulnerability would get their ships ripped apart.

 

And before someone states the Klingons would just strike from long range, every time I've seen Klingon ships fight they almost always fight at Knife Range, close in they don't strike at extremely long range. And they aren't going to magically alter their inbred instincts on fighting at a whim. This knife fighting strategy also reflects the Klingon disposition for fighting in close combat with knives and Bat'leths

 

This entire scenario was more to illicit the fact that Cloaking Devices do not make a ship immune to counterattack. They aren't even commonly used as part of tactics once the battle has started in the Star Trek universe. They are most commonly used for the initially surprise salvo to try and gain a tactical advantage and after wards the fight resumes as a normal mano e mano fight with the cloaking device used if the commander decides to attempt a withdrawal.

 

 

 

Klingons would get trounced due to the superior War Machine of the empire in the long run, coupled with the fact the Empire could strike anywhere at will in less time the Klingons would have to respond due to the speed superiority of Hyperdrives.

 

Star Trek ships are not usually designed for endurance battles, they tend to attempt to end the fight quickly by punching through and destroying or disabling the other ship.

 

Star Wars ships however are designed for Slugging matches, they are designed around beating each other into a pulp over time with big guns.

 

A Trek ship like the Klingons simply wouldn't be able to outlast a Star Destroyer in endurance. And about the whole rear arc of Star Destroyers being fairly weaponless? That is why Star Destroyers often times operate in small squadrons to cover each other and make up for arc weakness, and remember because of that limited rear arc and by virtue of their wedge like design. a Star Destroyer can field pretty much its entire arsenal in every other direction.

Edited February 5, 2012 by enigmayshi

[jarjarloves]

Right, the entire fleet shooting the SSD, the screwed up mess of the battle and the failure of the bridge deflector shields had NOTHING to do with it.

 

Clearly a single A-Wing ramming into the bridge instantly KO'ed the ship on it's own.

 

Which somehow translates into the Klingons being able to defeat the Empire... how ?

 

 

 

 

1,000 ships - The Empire has more than that, simple logic would make that obvious

Do you realise how big the Star Wars galaxy is ?

 

Do you realise THOUSANDS of ships were being hurled back and forth by both the Republic and the Sepratist forces in SINGLE BATTLES and those were just SKIRMISHES.

 

The Empire reached a peak of 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers

 

 

 

The Empire has a lot more than 1,000 ships which as a result makes Han Solo's dialogue wrong both from simple logic and direct canon examples.

 

 

 

EU is canon. Deal with it.

 

Result: Base Delta Zero

 

The ability to destroy planets has existed for a long time. Taris makes that abundantly clear with a single Star Destroyer causing the damage we see ingame.

 

As far as the EU is concerned, other super-weapons were created.

The Sun Crusher,

Corellian Centerpoint Station

Galaxy Gun

 

Infact: Here is just the complete list

 

 

 

ROTJ was a desperate move by the Rebellion and they stayed far away from the Death Star. Throw in the obvious plot point of the Emperor forcing everyone to hold back because he wanted to make a dramatic show of force.

 

Han Solo's number was wrong.

The Death Star Defences equal half the star fleet - You dont know how big that Star Fleet is which puts the FULL starfleet firepower anywhere from equal to greater than the Death Star.

 

If we use 25,000 Star Destroyers - That means the Death Star has more firepower than 13,000 Star Destroyers.

 

 

It required the combined alliance of the Klingons, Federation and Romulans to beat the Dominion.

 

The sheer amount of Star Destroyers the Empire has alone would obliterate any AQ power without including all the OTHER ships they have.

 

again EU is only canon IF it doesn't contradict something from

 

a. the movies

b. the script

c. the official novelizations

d. what George Lucas Says.

 

 

So Han Solo says the empire has less then 1,000 ships this is assuming he means capital Ships like Star Destroyers.

 

We do know how big the Star Fleet is as it would be around 1,000 ships.

 

Remember in a movie information about the world the characters live in is revealed primarily by dialogue. So Han saying it would take more then 1,000 ships and more fire power... isn't just something he is saying it is an actual fact about the universe.

 

it would be a piss poor movie if the characters constantly lied about the universe they lived in.

 

Look at the movies.

 

In A New Hope they have 1 Star Destroyer at Tattoine and it's only there to look for the missing droids.

 

In Empire they only send what? 5-10 SD to attack the base on Hoth. You would think if you found the rebel base they would send more ships. But they don't they say they send the FLEET.

 

RoTJ we see the most at one time during the Battle of Endor and even then at most you only see maybe 100 SDs. Common sense would dictate that if they had 25,000 ships and they where going to crush the rebels they would send a lot more star ships.

 

 

Logically 1,000 Star Destroyers is about right for the size of the Star Wars Universe. Star Destroyers are supposed to be mobile bases in a way like our Aircraft Carriers. The US only has 11 aircraft carriers and only ever deploys about 5 of them at any given time.

 

In the Star Wars universe with the speed of their Light Speed drives there is no need to have that many of them as they can get any where fast. They Empire made it all the way to Hoth in the Outer rim in less then 1 day.

 

Look also at the Clone Wars and Prequels. You never see more then 20 or 30 of those old Star Destroyers even at the huge battle at the beginning of ROTS.

 

Hell look at the size of the clone army in Attack of the Clones they say

 

200,000 clones are ready with a million more on the way.

 

now take a look at Venator class Star Destroyer.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator-class_Star_Destroyer

 

 

needs a crew of 7,400 and can hold 2,000 troops.

 

If you just use them to transport troops then you would need 600 of them to move 1.2 million troops.

 

If they are also running the ship then you only need 127 ships. Which seems more in line with what we see in the clone wars.

 

 

Now take a look at the Imperial Class II SD

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer

 

they require 37,000 people to man it. So if you have 1,000 ships already that would require 37 million men just to operate it and over 46.7 million if all those ships are full loaded.

 

That seems more inline with what we see in the movies.

 

By your numbers if they have 25,000 ships then they would need 925 MILLION people just to fly them.

 

That is not right. If it was then the Rebellion would have been crushed. They could have had over 1 million troopers hiding on the moon of endor.

 

hell they could have Wiped out the Ewoks in 2 days with that many people.

[J-Sheridan]

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Indri_VIII

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trilithium_weapon

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Genesis_Device

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Xindi_superweapon

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Red_matter

 

This is why superweapons make these conversations boring.

 

Not really, Empire still wins because Star Trek is either incapable or spinless to use such weapons.

 

None of these technologies were seen again after the one-shot point they were introduced. Even when they had their backs against a wall. Either these technologies cannot be replicated or they are insanely squeemish.

 

Star Trek powers all use warp drive

Warp Drive takes decades to travel across their own galaxy

Star Wars hyperspace can travel across the galaxy in hours

 

1) Empire had at peak 25,000 Star Destroyers

2) 3 Star Destroyers are capable of roasting a planet with a BDZ in a day

3) KOTOR Establishes a single Star Destroyer can destroy a planet like Taris

 

The Feds had 150 member planets

 

150 / 3 = 50 Star Destroyers each

 

Result: Within 24 hours every single Federation world is toast...

 

The Imperial fleet at Endor had 30 Imperial Star Destroyers.

 

30 / 3 = 10 Planets

 

10 Star Trek planets can be roasted per day

 

150 / 10 - 15 Days to roast every planet in the Federation

 

 

Simple fact of the matter is Star Wars massively outguns any single Star Trek power both technologically and numerically.

[enigmayshi]

again EU is only canon IF it doesn't contradict something from

 

a. the movies

b. the script

c. the official novelizations

d. what George Lucas Says.

 

 

So Han Solo says the empire has less then 1,000 ships this is assuming he means capital Ships like Star Destroyers.

 

We do know how big the Star Fleet is as it would be around 1,000 ships.

 

 

So...Han Solo a smuggler that is not even an imperial somehow knows their exactly fleet numbers? Yea right.

 

You're misquoting him. Han said

 

"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more fire..." before he got cut off by the Tie fighter. Based on what he had started saying the entire quote of what he would of said was.

 

"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more fire[power than I've ever seen.]"

 

Nothing in that quote indicates the Empire's fleet size, other than it its large. The latter doesn't indicate that the Empire doesn't have a thousand ships or more. Just that it'd take that many with far more firepower than Han has ever seen in order to do it.

[jarjarloves]

So...Han Solo a smuggler that is not even an imperial somehow knows their exactly fleet numbers? Yea right.

 

You're misquoting him. Han said

 

"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more fire..." before he got cut off by the Tie fighter. Based on what he had started saying the entire quote of what he would of said was.

 

"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more fire[power than I've ever seen.]"

 

Nothing in that quote indicates the Empire's fleet size, other than it its large. The latter doesn't indicate that the Empire doesn't have a thousand ships or more. Just that it'd take that many with far more firepower than Han has ever seen in order to do it.

 

1. Han was a Storm trooper so yeah he would know.

2. If you ignore that back story then he is a smuggler who has to avoid the empire and thus he would know a lot about them so he could avoid them.

3. Much like the Soviet Union dictator ships like to flaunt their power so everyone would have an idea on how large they would be. This is to crush any hope of a rebelion

4. The important thing is that The ENTIRE STAR FLEET COULDN"T DESTORY A PLANET.

 

I could argue that you can't assume what he is going to say next but even if he was going to say "more firepower then i've ever seen" it would still indicate the strength of the empire and of Star Destroyers.

 

it shows that the idea of destroying a planet is not common and something the Empire hasn't done before.

Edited February 6, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Talkative]

LOL Star Trek

[J-Sheridan]

By your numbers if they have 25,000 ships then they would need 925 MILLION people just to fly them.

 

That is not right.

 

If it was then the Rebellion would have been crushed. They could have had over 1 million troopers hiding on the moon of endor.

 

hell they could have Wiped out the Ewoks in 2 days with that many people.

 

That is where you completely fail.

 

How many people live on Earth ?

 

Your trying to argue that an intergalactic Empire that has existed for thousands of years and spans thousands of worlds... is limited to armies of millions in a galaxy that would generate a population in TRILLIONS.

 

Coruscant alone would generate a population in the Billions so being able to get 925 Million to crew a fleet would be hilariously easy for an intergalactic empire.

 

The industry in SW is already significant enought for the DSII to be constructed in 6 Months.

 

25,000 Star Destroyers is a drop in the bucket and hilariously LOW for an intergalactic Empire capable of building something that has TWICE the firepower of their fleet in 6 months.

[enigmayshi]

1. Han was a Storm trooper so yeah he would know.

2. If you ignore that back story then he is a smuggler who has to avoid the empire and thus he would know a lot about them so he could avoid them.

3. Much like the Soviet Union dictator ships like to flaunt their power so everyone would have an idea on how large they would be. This is to crush any hope of a rebelion

4. The important thing is that The ENTIRE STAR FLEET COULDN"T DESTORY A PLANET.

 

I could argue that you can't assume what he is going to say next but even if he was going to say "more firepower then i've ever seen" it would still indicate the strength of the empire and of Star Destroyers.

 

it shows that the idea of destroying a planet is not common and something the Empire hasn't done before.

 

Keep in mind we are talking about destroying a planet as in blow it into little chunks. Not simply bombard it to slag. So yea destroying a planet is a rather holy crap deal in both SW and ST. Bombarding it to slag is a rather 'eh' deal in both universes in terms of being impressed by the technology required to do it.

 

And yes, my interpretation of what he was going to say next could be wrong but it is a logical assumption.

[jarjarloves]

That is where you completely fail.

 

How many people live on Earth ?

 

Your trying to argue that an intergalactic Empire that has existed for thousands of years and spans thousands of worlds... is limited to armies of millions in a galaxy that would generate a population in TRILLIONS.

.

 

right there.

 

the galactic Empire only lasted at most what 30 years?

 

George Lucas tells you how big the empire is. G-canon overrrides C-canon.

 

BTW what percent of the world is in the military? Should give you an idea of the size of the Empire keep in mind its not a government people like either AND they distrust aliens so you are looking at what percentage of HUMANS could be in the empire.

 

Answer? very small.

[Rayla_Felana]

again EU is only canon IF it doesn't contradict something from

 

a. the movies

b. the script

c. the official novelizations

d. what George Lucas Says.

 

 

So Han Solo says the empire has less then 1,000 ships this is assuming he means capital Ships like Star Destroyers.

 

We do know how big the Star Fleet is as it would be around 1,000 ships.

 

Remember in a movie information about the world the characters live in is revealed primarily by dialogue. So Han saying it would take more then 1,000 ships and more fire power... isn't just something he is saying it is an actual fact about the universe.

 

it would be a piss poor movie if the characters constantly lied about the universe they lived in.

 

Look at the movies.

 

In A New Hope they have 1 Star Destroyer at Tattoine and it's only there to look for the missing droids.

 

In Empire they only send what? 5-10 SD to attack the base on Hoth. You would think if you found the rebel base they would send more ships. But they don't they say they send the FLEET.

 

RoTJ we see the most at one time during the Battle of Endor and even then at most you only see maybe 100 SDs. Common sense would dictate that if they had 25,000 ships and they where going to crush the rebels they would send a lot more star ships.

 

 

Logically 1,000 Star Destroyers is about right for the size of the Star Wars Universe. Star Destroyers are supposed to be mobile bases in a way like our Aircraft Carriers. The US only has 11 aircraft carriers and only ever deploys about 5 of them at any given time.

 

In the Star Wars universe with the speed of their Light Speed drives there is no need to have that many of them as they can get any where fast. They Empire made it all the way to Hoth in the Outer rim in less then 1 day.

 

Look also at the Clone Wars and Prequels. You never see more then 20 or 30 of those old Star Destroyers even at the huge battle at the beginning of ROTS.

 

Hell look at the size of the clone army in Attack of the Clones they say

 

200,000 clones are ready with a million more on the way.

 

now take a look at Venator class Star Destroyer.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator-class_Star_Destroyer

 

 

needs a crew of 7,400 and can hold 2,000 troops.

 

If you just use them to transport troops then you would need 600 of them to move 1.2 million troops.

 

If they are also running the ship then you only need 127 ships. Which seems more in line with what we see in the clone wars.

 

 

Now take a look at the Imperial Class II SD

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer

 

they require 37,000 people to man it. So if you have 1,000 ships already that would require 37 million men just to operate it and over 46.7 million if all those ships are full loaded.

 

That seems more inline with what we see in the movies.

 

By your numbers if they have 25,000 ships then they would need 925 MILLION people just to fly them.

 

That is not right. If it was then the Rebellion would have been crushed. They could have had over 1 million troopers hiding on the moon of endor.

 

hell they could have Wiped out the Ewoks in 2 days with that many people.

 

BIG problem with your theory, the star wars galaxy is huge, I mean HUGE, the Outer Rim sieges themselves had so many battles at a time that they had to split the 15,000 strong jedi Order into having groups of two jedi, for each planet, generally a master and padawan, because of the sheer amount of battles being waged at any one time.

 

The Galactic Civil War was even larger, the Rebellion was not small, it was massive, and far larger than people seem to think, if it was so small, the Empire really would have crushed it in a matter of months, but it didn't, a real look at the EU reveals the Galactic Civil War was called galactic for a reason.

 

The fleet at the Battle of Endor was just the Executor's escort with the Death Star II's defense fleet, there were far more SSD fleets than just the Executor, and in fact, the Imperial IIs were used as regular patrol ships, because they were reliable and could take on almost anything thrown at it, with an entire galaxy to run AND a huge war waging over the entire galaxy, 25,000 seems far more believable than just 1,000.

 

As a matter of fact, the Death Star was built with the specific purpose of scaring Rebel Sympathizers into staying out of the war, a true look at the era reveals the Empire was having massive problems with the sheer amount of systems revolting, the Grand Moffs were paranoid, the Navy was stretched across the galaxy, the rebellion was getting bigger and bigger, the Emperor was growing impatient with the lack of progess in dealing with the Rebel Alliance, Vader wasn't doing his job properly and they were plagued with resource shortages, taking any metals they could find to keep the warmachine rolling.

 

At the same time as the Battle of Endor, a massive number of strikes were taken against the Empire, the fleets were tangled up, losing fourteen different fleets at the same time as the Second Death Star, etc.

 

You claim 975(?) million is a ridiculous number to just pilot the Star Destroyers, think about the amount of manpower the Empire would have from a Galactic population.

 

Also, as far as Solo's analysis goes, you realise that leading up to ESB he made many mistakes about the Empire, Hoth was one of them, he claimed the Empire didn't have the system in their records, guess what? a month later it got assaulted by Vader himself and was wiped out very quickly.

 

He claimed Bespin wasn't under Imperial control, guess what?

 

He claimed many things, and fell through when those same claims were inaccurate, hell Leia continued to pick on him for it for quite awhile, the only thing Solo really knew was Imperial procedure, and he knew it very well, because he has escaped from them so many times he isn't even afraid to land on Imperial planets.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well Solo was technically right about Hoth and Bespin, for Hoth it took one of a thousand probe droids to find the shield generator and lead the Empire there. For Bespin, it was because Boba somehow knew they were going to the place so he contacted the Empire to get ahead of them seeing as the Falcon didn't have a hyperdrive so it took them longer getting to Bespin. Edited February 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[enigmayshi]

Well Solo was technically right about Hoth and Bespin, for Hoth it took one of a thousand probe droids to find the shield generator and lead the Empire there. For Bespin, it was because Boba somehow knew they were going to the place so he contacted the Empire to get ahead of them seeing as the Falcon didn't have a hyperdrive so it took them longer getting to Bespin.

 

....Wait...HOW DID BOBA know they were going to Bespin anyway?

 

He was Shadowing them, and after they didn't jump to Lightspeed knew they didn't have a working hyperdrive. Thus knew there were only a limitted number of nearby places they could go to in a timely fashion. And seeing as he is following them their own trajectory would intersect perfectly with bespin so at that point....

 

 

Boba simply had to make a call.

[Wolfninjajedi]

He was Shadowing them, and after they didn't jump to Lightspeed knew they didn't have a working hyperdrive. Thus knew there were only a limitted number of nearby places they could go to in a timely fashion. And seeing as he is following them their own trajectory would intersect perfectly with bespin so at that point....

 

 

Boba simply had to make a call.

 

Ya I just figured that out after posting, was gonna edit.

[Liquidacid]

lol the numbers are so skewed in favor of SW both in amount of resources and power of units it's not even worth considering... the KDF would be wiped from existence in a matter of days and be worth nothing more than a footnote on the bottom of some Moff's weekly report

[jarjarloves]

BIG problem with your theory, the star wars galaxy is huge, I mean HUGE, the Outer Rim sieges themselves had so many battles at a time that they had to split the 15,000 strong jedi Order into having groups of two jedi, for each planet, generally a master and padawan, because of the sheer amount of battles being waged at any one time.

 

The Galactic Civil War was even larger, the Rebellion was not small, it was massive, and far larger than people seem to think, if it was so small, the Empire really would have crushed it in a matter of months, but it didn't, a real look at the EU reveals the Galactic Civil War was called galactic for a reason.

 

The fleet at the Battle of Endor was just the Executor's escort with the Death Star II's defense fleet, there were far more SSD fleets than just the Executor, and in fact, the Imperial IIs were used as regular patrol ships, because they were reliable and could take on almost anything thrown at it, with an entire galaxy to run AND a huge war waging over the entire galaxy, 25,000 seems far more believable than just 1,000.

 

As a matter of fact, the Death Star was built with the specific purpose of scaring Rebel Sympathizers into staying out of the war, a true look at the era reveals the Empire was having massive problems with the sheer amount of systems revolting, the Grand Moffs were paranoid, the Navy was stretched across the galaxy, the rebellion was getting bigger and bigger, the Emperor was growing impatient with the lack of progess in dealing with the Rebel Alliance, Vader wasn't doing his job properly and they were plagued with resource shortages, taking any metals they could find to keep the warmachine rolling.

 

At the same time as the Battle of Endor, a massive number of strikes were taken against the Empire, the fleets were tangled up, losing fourteen different fleets at the same time as the Second Death Star, etc.

 

You claim 975(?) million is a ridiculous number to just pilot the Star Destroyers, think about the amount of manpower the Empire would have from a Galactic population.

 

Also, as far as Solo's analysis goes, you realise that leading up to ESB he made many mistakes about the Empire, Hoth was one of them, he claimed the Empire didn't have the system in their records, guess what? a month later it got assaulted by Vader himself and was wiped out very quickly.

 

He claimed Bespin wasn't under Imperial control, guess what?

 

He claimed many things, and fell through when those same claims were inaccurate, hell Leia continued to pick on him for it for quite awhile, the only thing Solo really knew was Imperial procedure, and he knew it very well, because he has escaped from them so many times he isn't even afraid to land on Imperial planets.

 

you are getting the EU confused with what is actually canon.

 

the EU has a tendcy to keep making things bigger and bigger to try and get more people to read each of the writers books.

 

It still has to conform with the movies. If it makes it more then what we know from the movies then it's not canon.

 

 

as for the Galactic Rebelion it's all about scale. With about 1,000 Star Destroyers and so fourth the rebelion size we see in the movies is correct.

 

Remember Hoth and Yavin give you a size of the rebellion.

 

Actually the best show of how large the Rebellion is the battle of Endor. The Rebellion throws EVERYTHING they have at the empire in a last ditch effort to take out the empire and destroy the empire which is what they do. (George Lucas confirms this is the last stand of the empire and it is destroyed)

 

 

As for Han not sure I follow where did he say that Hoth was not in their system? Was that in the Book if so what page?

 

Anyhow this should be another indication of the size of the Empire. They say they have Thousands of probe droids searching the galaxy.

 

If the empire had 25,000 ships then they would have millions of probe droids searching the galaxy as a million probe droids would be a drop in the bucket.

 

Hoth was wiped out by 5-10 ships with maybe 20 AT-ATs. If they had the numbers you say their would have been more troopers there and more ships. The Empire can't afford to keep letting Skywalker escape.

 

Han wasn't wrong about Bespin either it wasn't under imperial control until the end of Empire.

[Rayla_Felana]

Well Solo was technically right about Hoth and Bespin, for Hoth it took one of a thousand probe droids to find the shield generator and lead the Empire there. For Bespin, it was because Boba somehow knew they were going to the place so he contacted the Empire to get ahead of them seeing as the Falcon didn't have a hyperdrive so it took them longer getting to Bespin.

 

He didn't claim they wouldn't have guessed or something, he claimed they had absolutely no knowledge of it's existence, evidently from their extensive knowledge shown in ESB, they knew exactly where it was.

 

The sole reason Han didn't trust Lando was because of his connections to the Empire, several times they tried to intimidate and persuade him into joining them, for the massive amount of resources at Bespin.

[Wolfninjajedi]

He didn't claim they wouldn't have guessed or something, he claimed they had absolutely no knowledge of it's existence, evidently from their extensive knowledge shown in ESB, they knew exactly where it was.

 

The sole reason Han didn't trust Lando was because of his connections to the Empire, several times they tried to intimidate and persuade him into joining them, for the massive amount of resources at Bespin.

 

Yes they figured out where the rebels were due to probe droids they knew the planet was there but not the rebels, as for Lando...I don't seem to recall him every liking the Empire remember what Han said?

 

"Can you trust him?" Leia

 

"No...but hes got no love for the Empire I can tell you that"Han

 

Lando seemed pretty much forced to let the Empire come on to Bespin, due to reasons of his own.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Liquidacid]

Enterprise D Main phasers output 3.6 GW and it can kill KDF ships

 

Slave 1 (a small system patrol craft) main gun output 64000 GW...

 

so a small privately owned single pilot patrol ship can has close to 18,000 times the damage potential of a very large Federation ship which has repeatedly beaten KDF ships...

 

 

Conclusion

 

A soldier in a Vac suit with a blaster rifle could take down a KDF ship of the line

 

 

In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the KDF like a bug. Even with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the KDF like a bug. Even if we gave the KDF a massive numerical advantage the Empire still squashes it like a bug. Accept it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Liquidacid

[jarjarloves]

Enterprise D Main phasers output 3.6 GW and it can kill KDF ships

 

Slave 1 (a small system patrol craft) main gun output 64000 GW...

 

so a small privately owned single pilot patrol ship can has close to 18,000 times the damage potential of a very large Federation ship which has repeatedly beaten KDF ships...

 

 

Conclusion

 

A soldier in a Vac suit with a blaster rifle could take down a KDF ship of the line

 

 

In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the KDF like a bug. Even with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the KDF like a bug. Even if we gave the KDF a massive numerical advantage the Empire still squashes it like a bug. Accept it.

the numbers for the Star Wars weapons are not canon.

[Rayla_Felana]

you are getting the EU confused with what is actually canon.

 

the EU has a tendcy to keep making things bigger and bigger to try and get more people to read each of the writers books.

 

It still has to conform with the movies. If it makes it more then what we know from the movies then it's not canon.

 

as for the Galactic Rebelion it's all about scale. With about 1,000 Star Destroyers and so fourth the rebelion size we see in the movies is correct.

 

Remember Hoth and Yavin give you a size of the rebellion.

 

Actually the best show of how large the Rebellion is the battle of Endor. The Rebellion throws EVERYTHING they have at the empire in a last ditch effort to take out the empire and destroy the empire which is what they do. (George Lucas confirms this is the last stand of the empire and it is destroyed)

 

 

As for Han not sure I follow where did he say that Hoth was not in their system? Was that in the Book if so what page?

 

Anyhow this should be another indication of the size of the Empire. They say they have Thousands of probe droids searching the galaxy.

 

If the empire had 25,000 ships then they would have millions of probe droids searching the galaxy as a million probe droids would be a drop in the bucket.

 

Hoth was wiped out by 5-10 ships with maybe 20 AT-ATs. If they had the numbers you say their would have been more troopers there and more ships. The Empire can't afford to keep letting Skywalker escape.

 

Han wasn't wrong about Bespin either it wasn't under imperial control until the end of Empire.

 

The word of Han Solo isn't the word of god, if we took that as word of god canon, how many other things should we take as G canon? point is, we don't, Kreia claims many things in KotOR II, does that mean it is canonical fact?

 

But we have seen in god knows how many other canon sources that wars were being waged all over, hell Thrawn and others were heading into the unknown regions with entire fleets to quell wars we have no actual information about, it's safe to say that with 30 years of galactic uprisings and ever growing threats to the Empire, they would have continued to churn out warships at an ever growing pace.

 

And, this is not necessarily so, the Battle of Endor was being fought at the sametime as other battles all over, with fourteen fleets being taken out before, during and after Endor.

Point being, in a galaxy spanning war, there are going to be more ships than what we see at Endor, much more, I imagine the Rebels threw everything they could spare from other systems into the combined fleet at Endor, also we have seen how lax the Empire treats the Rebellion, especially the Emperor, who never even imagined the Deflector Shield going down and the Rebel fleet actually putting on a good show to the point of victory, taking out not only the Death Star but SSD Executor as well.

 

Also, With the sheer volume of GCW canon i've read/played/watched over the years, I can't give you a direct source, just my long memory.

 

Also, as we have seen with the Empire on occasion, they tend to under/over-exaggerate numbers when it comes to basically anything, Grand Moff Tarkin tried to claim that the size of the Rebels on Yavin IV were pitiful and nothing more than a demonstration and were no real threat, not even deploying a serious amount of fighters to combat back with when under attack, and he was one of the smartest Grand Moffs in the Empire.

 

Again I refer to my spread thin comment, they only sent the Executor and it's escort fleet to attack Hoth, probably because Vader was in a rush to find the pilot that destroyed the Death Star.

 

In all seriousness, I don't think, unless you put Thrawn at the head of the Imperial Navy, that the Empire would actually take the Klingons seriously, their biggest weakness was arrogance and a slow reaction to events, the Klingons could use this along with their Ambush tactics to cause fairly decent casualties to the Imperial Navy, but once the Navy actually realises the threat, then the Klingons will start to crack under the weight of numbers.

 

EDIT: It's 01.20AM in England right now and I need to rest before work, We can continue this later on in the day.

 

Also, I believe the conversations I am talking about are in the Shadows of the Empire novel, I may be wrong, I am quite tired now so I'll have to sort this later on in the day.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Rayla_Felana