Can we trade some story for some MMO?

[Varteras]

That's very well said and I understand your point. I think FFXI is the other extreme and the reality is that a lot of players cannot allocate so much time to group events that eat away hours.

 

That doesn't mean we can't have balance however. That doesn't mean that the game needs to hold your hand in a linear fashion.

 

I've lvled one empire to 50 (sith jug) and am leveling a trooper now. The path is exactly the same besides for balmorra and taris being inverted. Those planets are such a joke, they have the gaul to actually flag you on them? ROFL? Flag you for what, you can't see the other faction, their balmorra or taris is in another time (see another phase).

 

I like solo content as well, but that doesn't mean take me away from other players completely and put me in my own little world.

 

Yeah FFXI was probably one of the most extreme examples I could come up with but I suppose that since it was the one I was familiar with and that it illustrated my point of how far a company can take the idea of grouping I used it.

 

As far as the linear fashion in which Bioware had us leveling I completely agree with you. For a game that was touted for its 'choice' I didn't really have one when it came to that. Vanilla WoW was great in that regard. I could level from 1 to 25 in Eastern Kingdoms and then decide I want to go to Kalimdor instead and there would be quests I could do there. Then I could decide at 40 that I want to go back and experience Eastern Kingdoms again from 40 to 60. I had a choice. I could also level a character completely on one continent and then the next character I created could be done entirely on the other. Then I could roll the opposite faction and have either completely different or somewhat different quests in those same areas. Bioware got that part right. Republic and Empire have completely different quests in the same areas and in the case of Balmorra and Taris (you don't seem to like how they did those but I enjoyed them) it was completely my faction's playground there.

 

Being forced to level up through the worlds (zones) in a rigid order just didn't feel right. I know they're trying to tell a story and I commend them for the effort but you can still give us options here. As an example, Tatooine and Alderaan could have both been 24-32 worlds. Even if you want our class stories to take us to every world that's fine but still allow me to decide at least at certain points what part of the faction story I level through. I could decide on one toon that I want to go through those 8 levels on Tatooine and then run off to Taris, completely skipping Alderaan since I outlevel it. Then the next toon I skip Tatooine and go to Alderaan instead. Add in the fact that I have dialogue choices to make which can even change how I do certain quests and you now have a game that offers way more choice in your experiences. I would even like to see them go as far as allowing us to make class story decisions. I can choose if I either want to go to Tatooine to go after my target's former teachers and draw them out that way or instead go to Alderaan and target their family connections to draw them out. Whichever choice I make locks me out of the other.

 

It's too late now but I really hope they take this route for expansions. Sorry for the long post.

[RowanThursday]

So... what are the problems?

 

In turn, I'll accept that grouping is desirable. I *don't* think that sacrificing story of the sake of it is a good plan- because an awful lot of people, myself included, are playing primarily for the story, and considering the other players an interesting phenomenon that we'll get to when we're not so busy with story.

 

Now... according to some that makes us part of the problem. However, having advertised 'an MMO with story', Bioware's not actually going to define productive, playing, non-trouble-making subscribers as part of the problem, luckily.

 

So... the question is... how do you encourage people who aren't grouping... to group, without alienating them.

 

Forced grouping, by any means, isn't going to work... because grouping, currently, has so many problems associated with it that for a lot of players, forced grouping feels like a lock-out from content.

 

That means that imposing Heroics *anywhere* in the Class Storyline, for instance, would be a diabolically bad idea.

 

So... there's two issues.

 

1) Where do you draw the line- what level of important content is it right to fence behind the grouping barrier... as incentive, without being penalisation?

 

2) How do you make grouping less of a barrier to many?

 

 

Time will solve parts of these problems. More players, more experience, will lead to more people being group-willing. As far as one goes, I'd say the level of content's about right- nobody should be blocked from carrying out important storylines by the group barrier... *but* perhaps there needs to be a more innovative and integrated means of 'advertising' group content in-game. Flashpoint Courier droids, and Heroic-Quest touting-NPCs are currently rather like can-carriers on the street, pestering passers by with their inconvenient missions, and fairly easily ignored.

 

Suppose instead... instead of the highly irritating 'bonus quest updating' things, the Heroics functioned akin to WoW (yes, I know, I said it) Battlegrounds- so that on completing a certain portion of the main Planetary Quest Chain (*Not* the Class one), in Conversation, the mission giver then remarked "Milord, we've just had an emergency report... X is happening at Y, Darth Timmy has ordered all troops to converge on this area... a shuttle can be ready to pick you up shortly" (or something like that)- conversation wheel pops up with replies along the lines of: a) Tell them I'm ready whenever they are, b) I have... other priorities [Refuse Flashpoint], or c) You can tell Darth Timmy to fight his own wars, thanks.

 

If you pick the accept option, you're then queued for the next assembled group- if you're already in a group, and accepting the quest is the result of the group roll on the conversation, then your group is queued for it. When enough people to fulfil the group quest requirement are queued, a 'shuttle' picks you up and, without penalty, quick travels you to the group quest starting point- and back again at the end.

[Dalex]

Yeah FFXI was probably one of the most extreme examples I could come up with but I suppose that since it was the one I was familiar with and that it illustrated my point of how far a company can take the idea of grouping I used it.

 

As far as the linear fashion in which Bioware had us leveling I completely agree with you. For a game that was touted for its 'choice' I didn't really have one when it came to that. Vanilla WoW was great in that regard. I could level from 1 to 25 in Eastern Kingdoms and then decide I want to go to Kalimdor instead and there would be quests I could do there. Then I could decide at 40 that I want to go back and experience Eastern Kingdoms again from 40 to 60. I had a choice. I could also level a character completely on one continent and then the next character I created could be done entirely on the other. Then I could roll the opposite faction and have either completely different or somewhat different quests in those same areas. Bioware got that part right. Republic and Empire have completely different quests in the same areas and in the case of Balmorra and Taris (you don't seem to like how they did those but I enjoyed them) it was completely my faction's playground there.

 

Being forced to level up through the worlds (zones) in a rigid order just didn't feel right. I know they're trying to tell a story and I commend them for the effort but you can still give us options here. As an example, Tatooine and Alderaan could have both been 24-32 worlds. Even if you want our class stories to take us to every world that's fine but still allow me to decide at least at certain points what part of the faction story I level through. I could decide on one toon that I want to go through those 8 levels on Tatooine and then run off to Taris, completely skipping Alderaan since I outlevel it. Then the next toon I skip Tatooine and go to Alderaan instead. Add in the fact that I have dialogue choices to make which can even change how I do certain quests and you now have a game that offers way more choice in your experiences. I would even like to see them go as far as allowing us to make class story decisions. I can choose if I either want to go to Tatooine to go after my target's former teachers and draw them out that way or instead go to Alderaan and target their family connections to draw them out. Whichever choice I make locks me out of the other.

 

It's too late now but I really hope they take this route for expansions. Sorry for the long post.

 

Don't be sorry, that was summed up very nicely and I agree completely. That was one part of the story I didn't touch on as much. The illusion of choice is very easily seen as you put it. That's almost ok in the side missions, but not ok in the class quests. That is one thing that WoW got right and you mentioned it, you could level in completely different zones at different times. Choice should be more meaningful if you want the story to flourish.

 

To use the Sith Warrior story that you mentioned since I just played through it, it's trying to trick you into thinking you always had the choice to go to Alderaan or Tatooine, but you must go to both *and* it makes no sense to go to Alderaan first since they are different levels as you mentioned.

[StonySpider]

The Warcraft mythos interests me too and the direction they eventually took it dissapoints me greatly... Especially starting with Wrath, which as you say was a major clickfest. The thing is though, TOR is just disguising the same quests we did in WoW with cut scenes and attempts to slow down the leveling process, because there is nothing at the end to keep you playing your main character for more than a few weeks.

 

I'm one of the few people that actually enjoyed reading those quests in WoW. At least in Vanilla you actually needed to read them to know where to go. The game was also not as linear as this one where I'm literally doing the same planets in the same order all the time. Even in WotLK I could decide where to level at least.

 

Here I outlevel the zone I'm in so incredibly fast that the quests get almost all gray before I'm done with a planet. Even then getting to 50 is so incredibly quick.

 

You make some good points about outlevling the zone very quickly, I often leave the planet I'm on with many many little triangles over peoples heads because I'm just so far ahead of the level I have to be.

 

However, when you talk about disguising the same quests we had to do in WoW, and the linear progression of the areas, I disgree. I think that the quests in WoW were all interesting, for the most part, and if they were fully realized with dialogue they'd it would be far more fun to quest in WoW, in essence I believe that it isn't so much of a disguise as much as it is a more entertaining re-telling.

 

As for the linear progression, I think it's just more obvious in SWTOR because of the seperate planets. When you think about it, a Tauren would start in Mulgore, up to Thunderbluff, then to the Barrens, then to Orgrimmar, eventually to BC content, where they'd start in Hellfire, then move on to Zangarmarsh, etc. etc. You couldn't just go quest around Shattrath at level 60 because you wouldn't be strong enough. WoW just gives us the illusion of choice by connecting all the areas to each other.

[Mekrath]

Did I say those games were better? I've played WoW from release to 2010 on and off, but at release it felt like an MMO. Zones were vibrant and full of people. PVP servers actually meant something and I had to watch my back while leveling. I've seen 3 republic players lvling my sith juggernaut to 50. Yes WoW got worse after TBC, that goes without saying.

 

Rift just copied WoW, but without the same quality behind it and without a strong IP like TOR has.

 

Still WoW is terrible now, but at least it lets you group easily, and not every 2 seconds of its zones are instanced (phases).

 

I played EQ for a couple years and then WoW at release as well, and you are right, both games felt alive and had much more community than anything these days.

 

I believe the main difference is leveling speed. In EQ, it took forever to level. Where these days you arrive at a planet in SWTOR and out-level it in a couple hours, back then you were in a zone adventuring around the same people for a long time. You ran into them more than once and got to know people.

 

WoW wasn't always insta-max level. Back at the beginning the leveling speed, while much faster than EQ, was very slow by today's standards.

 

Games these days are in too much of a rush to get you to endgame, in my opinion.

[Dalex]

 

 

Suppose instead... instead of the highly irritating 'bonus quest updating' things, the Heroics functioned akin to WoW (yes, I know, I said it) Battlegrounds- so that on completing a certain portion of the main Planetary Quest Chain (*Not* the Class one), in Conversation, the mission giver then remarked "Milord, we've just had an emergency report... X is happening at Y, Darth Timmy has ordered all troops to converge on this area... a shuttle can be ready to pick you up shortly" (or something like that)- conversation wheel pops up with replies along the lines of: a) Tell them I'm ready whenever they are, b) I have... other priorities [Refuse Flashpoint], or c) You can tell Darth Timmy to fight his own wars, thanks.

 

If you pick the accept option, you're then queued for the next assembled group- if you're already in a group, and accepting the quest is the result of the group roll on the conversation, then your group is queued for it. When enough people to fulfil the group quest requirement are queued, a 'shuttle' picks you up and, without penalty, quick travels you to the group quest starting point- and back again at the end.

 

That's actually an amazing idea, I support it wholeheartedly and it makes complete sense. I was going to mention that is another thing missing, quest chains that end in heroics... Not all quest chains should end in heroics, but it would give heroics personality. A lot of them in their current state are not even voice acted but are posted on some little terminal. They are almost an after thought and are easily skipped/missed.

 

To bring up another example from WoW (yes, yes I know, how dare I), I'm sure people remember the Defias series in Westfall. All the side missions in that zone led to you doing Deadmines with a group. You wanted to see Van Cleef, to see where those Defias all spawned from. There was a direct quest chain to it, but also all the other little quests in the zones had something to do with it, so people wanted to do it.

[Mekrath]

Provided they stay at it and weather the post-launch storm without laying everyone on the development team off (I'm looking at Sony here). There is potential to turn this game into something really awesome though. If they get their noses to the grindstone and start churning out functional modern MMO systems and content this game could evolve into something very special.

 

I sure hope so. Before I cancelled my sub, I paid for a 6 month subscription. I have been following this game since October of 2008 and have a lot invested in it. It's not worth my time to play right now, but hopefully someday soon it will be.

[Kachindahl]

Can you make this an MMO?

[Dalex]

You make some good points about outlevling the zone very quickly, I often leave the planet I'm on with many many little triangles over peoples heads because I'm just so far ahead of the level I have to be.

 

However, when you talk about disguising the same quests we had to do in WoW, and the linear progression of the areas, I disgree. I think that the quests in WoW were all interesting, for the most part, and if they were fully realized with dialogue they'd it would be far more fun to quest in WoW, in essence I believe that it isn't so much of a disguise as much as it is a more entertaining re-telling.

 

As for the linear progression, I think it's just more obvious in SWTOR because of the seperate planets. When you think about it, a Tauren would start in Mulgore, up to Thunderbluff, then to the Barrens, then to Orgrimmar, eventually to BC content, where they'd start in Hellfire, then move on to Zangarmarsh, etc. etc. You couldn't just go quest around Shattrath at level 60 because you wouldn't be strong enough. WoW just gives us the illusion of choice by connecting all the areas to each other.

 

If part of the quests in WoW had the realization of TOR, we'd have an incredible game, no argument there.

 

The problem I think WoW didn't have at launch that TOR does (WoW might have it too now, but it's gotten so huge and it's got a lore more MMO tools), is that it took a reasonable amount of time to level.

 

The serious flaw with TOR is that it seems to try so hard to slow you down from reaching endgame (because there isn't anything waiting for you there) by engrossing you with fully realized cut scene quests that are supposed to be a major time sink (yes a positive time sink, that is possible), but they fail at that objective.

 

I've played my Sith Jug from 1-50 without skipping one cut scene, without skipping one planet and without skipping one quest (I'm sure its possible I missed some, but a handful at most) and I was not only constantly out leveling everything, but I got to 50 in a heartbeat.

 

Now the game, hell even the developers seem to push for you to enjoy all the story lines and I can't for the life of me understand why they would say that in an MMO. I happen to love my Sith Juggernaut, why does he need to languish doing nothing?

[SirUrza]

I can't say I ever leveled in a group in any MMO I've ever played.. aside from Dungeon content that is.

 

BioWare has incentive, social points. You skip that, you miss out on the social gear.

[Zeodic]

As much as I enjoy the class quests, I can assure you that as a long time MMO player, two minute cutscenes of a guy explaining why I need to go kill an arbitrary number or people and click on an arbitrary amount of glowing blue items is the LAST thing I wanted out of a "next gen" MMO.

 

How about more features that encourage socialization and large scale exploration and combat? You know, like MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER kind of suggests.

 

And I can assure you as a longtime MMO player I didnt want more click click click go kill quest info I never read.

 

You do realize socializing is something that you have to initiate don't you??

 

ahh thats right long time mmo player sorry ...

[Dalex]

And I can assure you as a longtime MMO player I didnt want more click click click go kill quest info I never read.

 

You do realize socializing is something that you have to initiate don't you??

 

ahh thats right long time mmo player sorry ...

 

It's quite hard to initiate when the incentive is tiny for a few reasons.

 

1) You are so isolated from other players due to the phases and planets that even the chat channel (which is an archaic tool to find groups btw) isn't very effective if you are on planet and are looking for a FP group.

 

2) The Heroic quests are posted as afterthoughts and don't have the same quality story telling that the class story does. They barely have the same quality as the solo missions and people are busy doing those as the rewards are similar anyway.

 

3) There are so many servers that do not have healthy populations and obviously they won't be merged as that is seen as an act of weakness. Couple that with the incredible faction imbalance going on and you have a hell of a hard time finding groups.

[Aroseby]

Hmmm.....would dropping story from a story-based mmorpg be an oxymoron??

[StonySpider]

I think the real problem here is several different groups demanding to be pleased at once. This game has to have one of the most divided fanbases in terms of the reason they subbed, that it's inevitable that something Bioware does will rub people wrong.

 

On the one hand there are people who bought the game because it's Knights of the Old Republic 3, which as I can attest to is something that people have been wanting since the second one was released. These people would much rather Bioware focus on the story, as it is a story they've been wanting to continue for a very long time.

 

One the other hand there are the hardcore MMO players that left WoW because they were tired of all the BS Blizzard is implementing these days, and they want Bioware to focus more on the MMO aspects of it.

 

As a member of both groups, it's pretty clear to me that the problem is simply a matter of conflicting interests. Developing both would take way too much resources than Bioware can manage at the moment, so by definition someone is always going to be disappointed at the direction the game is going.

 

My advice, give it time, if SWTOR becomes even near as popular as WoW, Bioware will be raking in millions, and they'll be able to devote so much more resources to make it the game everyone wants to play. Until then enjoy what it actually is, which is a really, really fun game.

[Dalex]

I think the real problem here is several different groups demanding to be pleased at once. This game has to have one of the most divided fanbases in terms of the reason they subbed, that it's inevitable that something Bioware does will rub people wrong.

 

On the one hand there are people who bought the game because it's Knights of the Old Republic 3, which as I can attest to is something that people have been wanting since the second one was released. These people would much rather Bioware focus on the story, as it is a story they've been wanting to continue for a very long time.

 

One the other hand there are the hardcore MMO players that left WoW because they were tired of all the BS Blizzard is implementing these days, and they want Bioware to focus more on the MMO aspects of it.

 

As a member of both groups, it's pretty clear to me that the problem is simply a matter of conflicting interests. Developing both would take way too much resources than Bioware can manage at the moment, so by definition someone is always going to be disappointed at the direction the game is going.

 

My advice, give it time, if SWTOR becomes even near as popular as WoW, Bioware will be raking in millions, and they'll be able to devote so much more resources to make it the game everyone wants to play. Until then enjoy what it actually is, which is a really, really fun game.

 

Never looked at it like that, but yes that is quite well put.

 

I'm sure I fall in the second camp (the MMO one), but I did play Kotor 1 and 2 with multiple runthroughs. I loved those games, and yes I used to love WoW. Maybe you are right, maybe combining them is impossible for Bioware to do.

 

I just wish they would come close, and what we have today is not it unfortunately

[jestertron]

once again the entire game consists of a 1-50 grind with plenty of gold sinks

the endgame consists of PVP - 3 level 50 bracket WZs and a Open PVP world

2 raids (tried those yet?)

All "heroic" versions of each flashpoint

and if you haven't done it all, there are bonus series of quests, and datacrons to collect towards titles you can obtain.

 

 

 

Soooooo, yeah, I see a MMO here. What's the deal, guys?

Edited January 30, 2012 by jestertron

[Meleagaunt]

Did I say those games were better? I've played WoW from release to 2010 on and off, but at release it felt like an MMO. Zones were vibrant and full of people. PVP servers actually meant something and I had to watch my back while leveling. I've seen 3 republic players lvling my sith juggernaut to 50. Yes WoW got worse after TBC, that goes without saying.

 

Rift just copied WoW, but without the same quality behind it and without a strong IP like TOR has.

 

Still WoW is terrible now, but at least it lets you group easily, and not every 2 seconds of its zones are instanced (phases).

 

Wonder why people have to bash other games to justify their purchase.

 

Anyways, this game will mature and add things like LFG system which should alleviate some issues.

[StonySpider]

Wonder why people have to bash other games to justify their purchase.

 

Anyways, this game will mature and add things like LFG system which should alleviate some issues.

 

LFG is for lazy, un social people. Finding a group really isn't that hard, and my server is light pop, maybe 40 people on the fleet at peak hours.

[SkilledSeeker]

Right, because WoW, the standard by which all other MMOs are measured, is so terrible for solo-ing. Like all the questing areas aren't total ghost-towns and you play with other players ALL THE TIME outside of running random dungeons.

 

What the hell. You completely misunderstood my post. I'm agreeing with you idiot.

[Dalex]

LFG is for lazy, un social people. Finding a group really isn't that hard, and my server is light pop, maybe 40 people on the fleet at peak hours.

 

Not sure I see how LFG is lazy. Its more of a necessary evil, especially for this game where grouping is quite poorly implemented due to the linearity and phasing and utter lack of need of it. In a perfect world we wouldn't need it if the incentive to group would be there and well implemented.

[StonySpider]

What the hell. You completely misunderstood my post. I'm agreeing with you idiot.

 

The person you quoted wanted more solo material and to play by himself, so you criticized him for playing an MMO where it isn't the focus, the focus is playing with other people, right?

 

If that's the case then no, I didn't misunderstand your post. I just used massive doses of sarcasm to say that most of WoW is soloed by most people anyway and that the on;ly time people run a group is random dungeons or raids with strangers, and since WoW is the standard model of MMOs these days, your statement makes no sense.

 

Of course if that wasn't what you meant at all, then I apologize.

[StonySpider]

Not sure I see how LFG is lazy. Its more of a necessary evil, especially for this game where grouping is quite poorly implemented due to the linearity and phasing and utter lack of need of it. In a perfect world we wouldn't need it if the incentive to group would be there and well implemented.

 

But see, it's not a necessary evil, because I'm on a light pop server and have absolutely no problems grouping for flashpoints of Heroic quests. The fact that you can flag yourself for LFG and specify through notes what you want to do should be an ample tool to find people willing to do content with you, if people actually used it instead of just speaking in general.

[Dalex]

But see, it's not a necessary evil, because I'm on a light pop server and have absolutely no problems grouping for flashpoints of Heroic quests. The fact that you can flag yourself for LFG and specify through notes what you want to do should be an ample tool to find people willing to do content with you, if people actually used it instead of just speaking in general.

 

That flagging for LFG thing has to be one of the poorest things I've seen in this game by far. It's next to completely ignored by everyone on the planet. It's not convenient, its amazingly awkward in implementation. Even spamming general is nicer, at least its in the relevant time frame where as you might have just forgotten to turn your LFG off or completely moved on.

 

You also must be on a great server, since all I play are tank and healers and actually spend a lot of my walking around trying to find groups for the out of the way heroic content. It's hilarious how much of an afterthought it is in an "MMORPG"

[StonySpider]

That flagging for LFG thing has to be one of the poorest things I've seen in this game by far. It's next to completely ignored by everyone on the planet. It's not convenient, its amazingly awkward in implementation. Even spamming general is nicer, at least its in the relevant time frame where as you might have just forgotten to turn your LFG off or completely moved on.

 

You also must be on a great server, since all I play are tank and healers and actually spend a lot of my walking around trying to find groups for the out of the way heroic content. It's hilarious how much of an afterthought it is in an "MMORPG"

 

What usually works for me is offering to do all the Heroics in one go. People aren't likely to pass up a definite group to help with all those quests, not just one, find another group, one, find another group so on and so forth.

 

Plus, making friends who play regularly helps.

[Saitada]

I've ran I think all of two or three flashpoints. Done a fair bit of grouping to help others, or simply because we were doing the same quest at the same time and it was more efficient to work together, than to work separately. However, I do agree that this game seems to be lacking any REAL incentive to group up unless you are doing the flashpoints etc.

 

I have several characters that haven't grouped with anyone at all, and have had no need to group with anyone at all, for any of the content they are doing. To me that honestly... kinda defeats the purpose of an MMO if you can literally do everything you need to do, w/o any help at all.

 

Granted... I am also one of those types of people who prefer to do everything I can solo, and only group when the content is such that it requires me to group or is simply more efficient to group to accomplish it.

 

Overall, I like this game, even when I see some glaring issues that do need addressed. One of them (which ironically goes against my own grain) is the shortage of content that REALLY requires a group to accomplish. I'd LOVE to see BW add more group related content. Maybe some quest lines that are not class based but that require a group to team up to finish the entire quest series together over different areas of the planet, etc.

 

Or (a thought) increase the difficulty of class quest bosses so they actually require a group to accomplish their defeat. This would in effect.. encourage people to quest together a bit more often. Just a thought.

 

I'm patient though. Games new. I deff don't expect BW to churn out massive amounts of new content while at the same time fixing bugs and other known issues. I'm an old hand at gaming. If they get some decent stuff out within a year... then they'll have done their jobs.

 

~Saitada

Edited January 30, 2012 by Saitada