An educated look at the Operative nerf.

[PaZZo]

/thread.

[lepyr]

It does. But it takes a healer less time and energy to dispell your dots before they can do serious damage, than it takes to heal them. So it's hardly a win, really.

 

The only reason why it's rarely seen in PUGs atm is that there are about 1-2lethality specced Ops per Server:rolleyes: and PvE at large doesn't require any dispel so far.

Should any of that change, though, healers won't break a sweat adapting.

 

This is completely wrong. Dispelling DOTs is stupid when you could use that GCD to drop a 4000+ heal instead. Unless you catch the DOT before the first tick, and good luck doing that when my corr grenade hits 3 people.

[Skurkanas]

This is completely wrong. Dispelling DOTs is stupid when you could use that GCD to drop a 4000+ heal instead. Unless you catch the DOT before the first tick, and good luck doing that when my corr grenade hits 3 people.

The 4000+heal takes ~1,5secs to cast, costs 25energy and requires me to stand still. And I'd still end up needing to heal all 3 of these people.

So why is tabbing through my allies, using a 10 energy instant cast that'll also prevent their hp from dropping in the first place wrong or stupid?

 

It's a little harder than reactonary healing, but it's certainly not impossible.

People in PUGs might still ignore it for a while, but if Lethalty happens to become more popular, or if you happen to come across an actual team instead of a PUG, someone will dispell

[SWToRBurns]

Yes.

I've been with my team plenty of times, I'm dead before the first heal is done on me. If my second team member isn't either 1. A guardian that built up for the before mentioned 5k Sweeps or 2. A Scoundrel, Im dead. Unless My teammates got their stuns up. Yet again that brings up a weird situation. Should we balance the game around having stuns you MUST save for ONE class? Doesn't work.

 

Important parts bolded ^

 

 

As an Op, you have a 3-5 second window to kill someone. If your healer cant see you take a giant hit, react, and get something on you to stop the following hits coming in at 1.5 second (long GCD is long) then you need a better healer, better gear, or to just quit the game because you are terribad....

 

Ops have 2 stuns not counting Hidden Strike knockdown, 1 that breaks on damage. 1 Fills resolve 75% the breakable fills it 50%

 

Every other class has either:

 

1.) Knockback

2.) Shields

3.) Defensive CDs that will make those stabby moves hit like a pillow

 

You say above that no one should have to "save" their stuns for just one class. Ops have to save their stuns for all other classes, because out of stealth, without CDs they are fodder for anything with a charge/root/30m range.

Edited January 30, 2012 by SWToRBurns

[lepyr]

The 4000+heal takes ~1,5secs to cast, costs 25energy and requires me to stand still. And I'd still end up needing to heal all 3 of these people.

So why is tabbing through my allies, using a 10 energy instant cast that'll also prevent their hp from dropping in the first place wrong or stupid?

 

It's a little harder than reactonary healing, but it's certainly not impossible.

People in PUGs might still ignore it for a while, but if Lethalty happens to become more popular, or if you happen to come across an actual team instead of a PUG, someone will dispell

 

I use one GCD to corr grenade 3 people. You use 3 GCDs to cleanse it. Think about that. Or, you notice my Corr Dart on someone when it has 4 ticks left and cleanse it (saving ~2000 damage) instead of healing them for 4000. You'd have to purge both my DOTs before the second tick to make that a better use of a GCD than a standard heal. Also, you can only Toxin Scan every 4s. I can cast 3 Corr Darts during that time. How do you possibly expect to keep up? Maybe if you did nothing but run around trying to cleanse people on CD in the most efficient way possible it would be an annoyance to me - but your team would get rolled in the process so it most definitely IS a win in that scenario.

 

Also, I play against premades all the time. We always roll with 4 and we come up against at least 4-5 other good guilds that do premades on the Imperial side, and probably 3 guilds that go good premades on the Republic side. Never has a healer (no matter how good) had a significant impact on my damage. As a healer running against premades YOU will get shut down much faster than an operative running around casting DOTs. If you try to sit there cleansing my DOTs instead of healing yourself (or whoever else our focus target is) you will drop like flies. What you are saying might make sense to you in theory, but I assure you I would LOVE it if you healed that way against me in practice.

[GengisKahn]

LOL because you think a healer has the time to take a look at the crapload of tiny icons on a friendly target to see if there's some leth OP dots rolling, while keeping an eye on the mini watching health, and the other eye on the screen to see if anyone even just looks like he's about to beging to think to come and spank you? you sir are delusional. Not to mention that i'd rather drop a 5k heal (1.4 sec cast time after resurgence) anyway rather than dispell something (and with the bazillion effects on a guy it's not even remotely certain you're gonna dispell them). I'd rather have a tank punt the OP away and prevent the cull, which can be said for ANY melee dps.

 

aoe snare is awesome in alderaan too, drop it on those 2-3 meleers chasing your healer and you saved his ***, drop it on their guys kiting and you guaranteed kills. On both /alderaan/voidstar corrosive grenade pretty much means no one's gonna plant/defuse the bomb/cap the point, the only stuff that comes close to that level of effectiveness is sniper's plasma probe (i think it's called, the GTAOE dot probe in eng tree if i remember right). THAT is the stuff that wins games mate.

 

also, you're IMP, you play hutball 80% of the time, so your argument is invalid, get over it

 

Lol, my argument is invalid because i'm imperial?

 

So, you play with healers that cant play, i understand you dotn understanding my point.

 

Yes, little icons are awful, but good players still know when to dispell.

 

You rather heal 5k than eliminating the dps of one enemy... thats your mistake. Cleanse the lethality dots and lethality damage wont be a problem, but you rather heal 5k.

 

Snares can get you kill in all the warzones, yes, but its effectiveness will only change the course of battle in huttball.

If you want to argue that, then fine, argue with yourself, or maybe start playing with good players.

 

I am not surprised Bioware decided to balance their game based on bad players, since its more than 80% of the warzone population (they should fix warzones being so easy to get gear since many people that dont know a thing about PVP use them to get initial gear to raid), that fact will destroy any competitive pvp in the game, but if they balanced around good players qq about bads not being able to counter certain classes woul be too much.

 

I think this game's PVP will end even worse than warhammer online.

[GengisKahn]

Healers don't have time to dispel DOTs. I have healed 100+ WZs as an Op. If you don't use every GCD to cast a heal people die. Dispel a DOT, someone dies. My damage as lethality is over 500k all the time. DPS over 600. The small amount of dispels have little to no noticeable effect, unless you are trying to solo an intelligent healer. You can't touch that damage as concealment doing your cheesy opener over and over. I'm speaking based on hundreds of hours of testing both specs. You are simply hoping what you say is true because you are a concealment fanboy. I would use whichever was better bc it's better, that's why I did objective analysis to figure it out.

 

And how hard do you think it is to keep DOTs up in PVE? Instants that work from 30m that need to be hit every 18-21s are about the easiest thing in the world to cast on cooldown. Also, raiding is about DPCT not DPS of abilities. The highest DPCT of lethality are the DOTs, followed by weakening blast, and finally cull. I don't know why I'm bothering to argue with you TBH. Almost everything you say is grossly incorrect, and it seems like you have zero desire to actually know the truth. You just want to blindly defend your pre-conceived notions.

 

Bad healers dont dispell. Good healers will dispell when there is a lethality op in the other team, because if not that lethality op will do 500k damage. Against a healer that dispells, you wouldnt reach 100k, which is why against certain classes dispelling is BETTER than healing.

 

bad healers dont have time to dispell because since they dont dispell the enemy team is doing too much damage. If you as a healer dispell, then you wont need to heal that much.

 

I'm not a concealment fanboy, i dont even have a concealment operative, my operative is a healer. Another fail for you and the count is about to reach the roof.

 

Have fun playing with bad players and thinking you are the best of the world.

[GengisKahn]

The 4000+heal takes ~1,5secs to cast, costs 25energy and requires me to stand still. And I'd still end up needing to heal all 3 of these people.

So why is tabbing through my allies, using a 10 energy instant cast that'll also prevent their hp from dropping in the first place wrong or stupid?

 

It's a little harder than reactonary healing, but it's certainly not impossible.

People in PUGs might still ignore it for a while, but if Lethalty happens to become more popular, or if you happen to come across an actual team instead of a PUG, someone will dispell

 

 

Its useless, they just dont get it, let them spam their heals and think they are good players.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[lepyr]

Bad healers dont dispell. Good healers will dispell when there is a lethality op in the other team, because if not that lethality op will do 500k damage. Against a healer that dispells, you wouldnt reach 100k, which is why against certain classes dispelling is BETTER than healing.

 

If you think your job as a healer is to shut down a single other player on the enemy team then you are playing seriously wrong. Also, and again I don't know why I bother arguing with you, it is *impossible* to cleanse every DOT a leth op is casting because Corr Grenade hits 3 targets at once and I can cast Corr Dart every GCD. You, on the other hand, have one cleanse every 4s. Also your cleanse only removes 2 effects. That means if they have other bleeds/DOTs on them only 2 are going away. Only a moron would think removing 2k remaining damage across 2 DOTs is a better use of a GCD then healing for 4000+. If you want to be that moron, then please - go ahead.

Edited January 30, 2012 by lepyr

[Thefriar]

Great post. First post I have seen by someone who played a PT and then an OP.

 

The players who take issue with the burst damage are exactly what you describe in your post. Players that get bursted down once by an op in a huttball but that kill had very little to do with winning the overall objective of the warzone. Some players only think its about them when in fact its about the team and the objectives. I 100% agree that ops are one of the least effective if not the least effective players adding to a huttball. Since 70% of my warzzones are huttballs, when I play as an op I realize how fun the burst may be but how useless I typically am to the overall score of the game. If people would just realize this point and not make it all about themselves in a one v one there would be less nerd rage on this issue.

 

IF they make hidden strike not fill a resolve bar then then the whiners will be even worse because if you think you were locked down before then you haven't seen anything yet when you get hidden striked and then debilitated right after for 5.5secs of just sitting there taking damage.

 

If hidden strike still feels a resolve bar then you will see many more hybrid conceal/medics but I don't think most people have the patience to play this way. My guess is the agent class will vanish from battleground play except for a few hardcore holdouts not unlike the sniper. Instead of 50% sorcs we will see 60% sorcs - sounds fun? Not to me but I am leveling one right now anyway.

 

Think about the nerfs. Especially the operatives that actually PVE - they don't deserve this.

[PaZZo]

Lol, my argument is invalid because i'm imperial?

 

So, you play with healers that cant play, i understand you dotn understanding my point.

 

Yes, little icons are awful, but good players still know when to dispell.

 

You rather heal 5k than eliminating the dps of one enemy... thats your mistake. Cleanse the lethality dots and lethality damage wont be a problem, but you rather heal 5k.

 

Snares can get you kill in all the warzones, yes, but its effectiveness will only change the course of battle in huttball.

If you want to argue that, then fine, argue with yourself, or maybe start playing with good players.

 

I am not surprised Bioware decided to balance their game based on bad players, since its more than 80% of the warzone population (they should fix warzones being so easy to get gear since many people that dont know a thing about PVP use them to get initial gear to raid), that fact will destroy any competitive pvp in the game, but if they balanced around good players qq about bads not being able to counter certain classes woul be too much.

 

I think this game's PVP will end even worse than warhammer online.

 

 

rrrrite. so i guess your healers don't have a CD on their cleanse either, so good they are, and i guess they're so good they can direct their dispel exactly at that specific OP's dot rather than to the other dozen of effects rolling.

 

it is a FACT that a gcd is better spent healing rather than dispelling in the great majority of cases. but let's do some math shall we. Dispelling a DOT would negate how much of the OP's damage: 1-2 tick before he realizes he has to reapply? that's negligible damage. 1 part of cull's bonus damage? Even considering all this, it doesn't even come close to the amount of health i can restore in 1 GCD if i heal instead of cleanse.

 

And this, especially considering when there are other ways to negate enemy's dps, way more efficient than cleansing a dot, namely, CC.

 

In case you missed it in my previous posts, i'm talking about this from a healer's perspective, since when on my sorc i pretty much only heal.

 

Oh, also, about the "bad player" thing... i was in a top 10 guild world wide in GW, i guess people really must have gotten better in this last couple years

 

 

That said, cheers, office time's over, leaving my desk and forums debate for today xD

 

 

ps the "your argument is invalid" was clearly a joke, but i'll explain it better, since you missed it it seems: you said aoe snare is game deciding only in hutball, i say you're imperial, thus you play hutball the most. got it? wasn't that hard >_>

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo

[GengisKahn]

If you think your job as a healer is to shut down a single other player on the enemy team then you are playing seriously wrong. Also, and again I don't know why I bother arguing with you, it is *impossible* to cleanse every DOT a leth op is casting because Corr Grenade hits 3 targets at once and I can cast Corr Dart every GCD. You, on the other hand, have one cleanse every 4s. Also your cleanse only removes 2 effects. That means if they have other bleeds/DOTs on them only 2 are going away. Only a moron would think removing 2k remaining damage across 2 DOTs is a better use of a GCD then healing for 4000+. If you want to be that moron, then please - go ahead.

 

I am shutting you down at the same time i keep my teammate from getting damage.

 

If you use your toxicity scan and dispell two effects that will most of the time be better than one 4k heal if your enemy team has a lethality op.

 

Go spam corrosive grenade and we will see how much it takes you to go ooe.

 

Also, it would be hard for you to spam corrosive grenade and get so many people stacked in a 5 m radius without the effect all the time.

 

Again, keep being bad, more easy wins for me.

[GengisKahn]

ps the "your argument is invalid" was clearly a joke, but i'll explain it better, since you missed it it seems: you said aoe snare is game deciding only in hutball, i say you're imperial, thus you play hutball the most. got it? wasn't that hard >_>

 

For your sake, dont try to earn your life as a comediant.

 

Also, we get it, you cant see the little icons. Good players can. Those icons are awfull, unconfortable, very little user friendly, but good players still see them.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[lepyr]

Go spam corrosive grenade and we will see how much it takes you to go ooe.

 

This by itself proves you have no idea *** you are talking about.

 

Corr Grenade is on a 12s cooldown and costs 20e. Our DOT ticks restore 2 energy per cirt - and we have a ~50% crit chance on DOTs. With 8 ticks for each Corr Greande per target (it ticks once at 0s and every 3s after for 21s) we will have 24 ticks total on 3 targets. If half of those crit we have 12 crits for a total of 24 energy restored. Now let's think. 20 energy to cast minus 7.5 energy regained during the GCD = 12.5 energy per Corr Grenade. We get 24 energy back on top of that for a total net cost of NEGATIVE 11.5 energy. If you do this same math for Corr Dart you see it costs 16 energy - 7.5 regen during GCD = 8.5 total cost. 6 ticks (we'll pretend the 25% double-tick didn't proc) gives us 3 crits. 3 crits = 6 energy back. That's a net loss of 2.5 energy, or only 0.5 if we did proc a double-tick. Now keeping in mind we have that energy GAIN from Corr Grenade and we get an additional 3 energy every 3s from stim boost it becomes obvious that we can cast ALL our DOTs on CD while staying at MAX energy.

 

I know math is probably hard for you, but at least try to do rough estimations before posting blatantly wrong statements.

Edited January 30, 2012 by lepyr

[GengisKahn]

This by itself proves you have no idea *** you are talking about.

 

Corr Grenade is on a 12s cooldown and costs 20e. Our DOT ticks restore 2 energy per cirt - and we have a ~50% crit chance on DOTs. With 8 ticks for each Corr Greande per target (it ticks once at 0s and every 3s after for 21s) we will have 24 ticks total on 3 targets. If half of those crit we have 12 crits for a total of 24 energy restored. Now let's think. 20 energy to cast minus 7.5 energy regained during the GCD = 12.5 energy per Corr Grenade. We get 24 energy back on top of that for a total net cost of NEGATIVE 11.5 energy. If you do this same math for Corr Dart you see it costs 16 energy - 7.5 regen during GCD = 8.5 total cost. 6 ticks (we'll pretend the 25% double-tick didn't proc) gives us 3 crits. 3 crits = 6 energy back. That's a net loss of 2.5 energy, or only 0.5 if we did proc a double-tick. Now keeping in mind we get an additional 3 energy every 3s from stim boost it becomes obvious that we can cast ALL our DOTs on CD while staying at MAX energy.

 

I know math is probably hard for you, but at least try to do rough estimations before posting blatantly wrong statements.

 

You wont have all that energy back because i will be dispelling it. Thats the whole point. You said you will be pamming corrosive grenades and your dots while i dispell them.

 

You will end up without energy and i wont, with my team having more than enough health.

 

Try to keep up with the conversation, be coherent.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[lepyr]

You wont have all that energy back because i will be dispelling it. Thats the whole point. You said you will be pamming corrosive grenades and your dots while i dispell them.

 

You will end up without energy and i wont, with my team having more than enough heTry to keep up with the conversation.

 

You can - at best - dispel 1/3 of the DoTs a lethality op is casting due to the 4s cooldown of TS. And that is in a "perfect" situation where no other DoTs are on the targets and you are doing nothing but casting Toxin Scan. BUT, if you do that your HPS will be lulz low and your team will get rolled. How is it that you fail to realize such a ridiculously simple point that various people have made 3-4 times already. You keep saying the same crap without addressing (because you can't) the fatal flaws in your argument.

 

Try keeping up with the conversation yourself.

Edited January 30, 2012 by lepyr

[GengisKahn]

You can - at best - dispel 1/3 of the DoTs a lethality op is casting due to the 4s cooldown of TS. And that is in a "perfect" situation where no other DoTs are on the targets and you are doing nothing but casting Toxin Scan. AND if you do that your HPS will be lulz low and your team will get rolled. How is it that you fail to realize such a ridiculously simple point that various people have made 3-4 times already. You keep saying the same crap without addressing (because you can't) the fatal flaws in your argument.

 

Try keeping up with the conversation yourself.

 

I will dispell more damage than what i would have healed, thats what you dont understand. I will heal in the TS cd intervals, but you will do ****** damage and i will have erased you from the fight, my team wont even have to bother hitting you and my team will destroy yours because of that.

 

You know what? You want to be lethality in PVP? Fine, do it, more wins for me since you wont be in my team ever.

 

If you cant understand that dispelling 2 effects while destroying one enemy's dfamage is not worth 4k damage healed then you are a lost case. Also, 4k if it crits, trauma doesnt affect dispells, you know..

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[lepyr]

I will dispell more damage than what i would have healed, thats what you dont understand. I will heal in the TS cd intervals, but you will do ****** damage and i will have erased you from the fight, my team wont even have to bother hitting you and my team will destroy yours because of that.

 

You know what? You want to be lethality in PVP? Fine, do it, more wins for me since you wont be in my team ever.

 

If you cant understand that dispelling 2 effects while destroying one enemy's dfamage is not worth 4k damage healed then you are a lost case. Also, 4k if it crits, trauma doesnt affect dispells, you know..

 

You have an overly simplified view of things. I will have DOTs running on your ENTIRE team. In addition to that, each of those people will have DOTs from other players running as well - in addition to other debuffs. NOTHING guarantees that your Toxin Scan will hit my DOTs, it might hit an immobilize or slow effect from someone else, or maybe it will remove the last tick of an Acid Blade or a Marauder's bleeds. It picks 2 mental/physical/tech effects and removes them - you don't get to choose. It might ignore a full debuff with 6 ticks left and remove a bleed with a single tick left. In that case you just wasted a GCD doing like 600 healing.

 

You are not going to shut me down. You are not going to shut anyone down. You are going to get your team killed. I would love to see your average HPS as well as win ratio. I'm guessing both are miserable from your overall lack of understanding of strategy and mechanics.

[GengisKahn]

You have an overly simplified view of things. I will have DOTs running on your ENTIRE team. In addition to that, each of those people will have DOTs from other players running as well - in addition to other debuffs. NOTHING guarantees that your Toxin Scan will hit my DOTs, it might hit an immobilize or slow effect from someone else, or maybe it will remove the last tick of an Acid Blade or a Marauder's bleeds. It picks 2 mental/physical/tech effects and removes them - you don't get to choose. It might ignore a full debuff with 6 ticks left and remove a bleed with a single tick left. In that case you just wasted a GCD doing like 600 healing.

 

You are not going to shut me down. You are not going to shut anyone down. You are going to get your team killed. I would love to see your average HPS as well as win ratio. I'm guessing both are miserable from your overall lack of understanding of strategy and mechanics.

 

You wont have dots in my entire team, my entire team wont be stacked in a 5 m range and you will dot 3 at a time.

 

If TS hits the inmovilize, its still a good tradeoff, it could be a bad tradeoff if just happens to take out two vengeance dots for example, which are pathethic, but that's a low posibility.

 

I am goind to frop your damage at less than half what you would do if you have to constantly renew your dots and wont be able to hit hard.

 

You just dont get it... maybe you should roll a healer and the you will see. Althoug you seem to be bad enough to dont even reralize it after rolling the healer.

Edited January 30, 2012 by GengisKahn

[lepyr]

You just dont get it... maybe you should roll a healer and the you will see. Althoug you seem to be bad enough to dont even reralize it after rolling the healer.

 

I have healed 100s of WZs. I have a full champion set of healing gear. I consistently got 400-500k healing and had an incredibly high win rate. I just switched roles with my buddy a few weeks ago because he wanted to heal for a bit and I wanted to DPS. So you see, I'm arguing against you with knowledge of both sides. What a twist!

[GengisKahn]

I have healed 100s of WZs. I have a full champion set of healing gear. I consistently got 400-500k healing and had an incredibly high win rate. I just switched roles with my buddy a few weeks ago because he wanted to heal for a bit and I wanted to DPS. So you see, I'm arguing against you with knowledge of both sides. What a twist!

 

Well, then you are just bad or havent faced a high dot based team, or they are part of your lose ratio.

[Crowleyz]

This isn't educated, saying so is an outright lie. This is guesstimation at its finest by a person who hasn't played the post-balanced operative. Pointless, rediculous, unecessary and completely fictionbased thread.

 

Arguing that the Operative/Scoundrel class should be left as it is is an insult to the people paying to play this game. In my opinion you have two choices: Balance the Operatives/Scoundrels, or enjoy an overpowered class in an empty game world. Obviously a lot of people choose the latter(and put in excessive crying to emphasize it).

Edited January 30, 2012 by Crowleyz

[lepyr]

Well, then you are just bad or havent faced a high dot based team, or they are part of your lose ratio.

 

I'm not, I have and they aren't.

[Kyuss]

For those saying that 75%+ of the community can't be wrong (ie. that amount agrees that the nerfs are 'good'):

 

Just because you believe something doesn't mean that it's evidence -- it's rather ignorance. If this were the case, if I believed that the moon is made of cheese, the pure & simple fact that I believe it is enough to make it true.

 

For those saying that you were 'practically one-shot', ie. taken to ~25% health with your X number of battlemaster pieces:

 

So, you have ~15k health with a generous amount of expertise, correct? Right, then please explain to me how anyone can hit you for ~12k in one shot. Perhaps you were damaged for that much over 3 GCD's, providing for crits and buffs (which have been nerfed) applying... meaning 4.5 seconds -- 1/3 of which you will definitely be 'free' to retaliate' or possibly even 3.5-4 seconds if you us your CC breaker.

 

For those saying that BW's metrics (the fabled ability/class scoring techniqué) proves that Concealment/Scrappers were OP:

 

As mentioned previously by people; how come these proposed class changes were announced only a few days after the real problem was fixed. Yes, with stacking buffs (Biochem) and huge damage from grenades (Cybertech) nerfed and level 50s put into their own bracket damage was reduced by far. But these 'metrics' had enough data gathered in this short period of time to properly & accurately show that Scrapper/Concealment was still overpowered? Either the data used to calculate what needed to change didn't take the new data into consideration, as what should have happened, or BW just didn't bother... bad development and implementation.

 

---

 

Just swinging this back on topic *cough* GK & Lepyr arguing some random crap *cough*

 

Nice OP and I'm a bit disapointed that this turned into a Concealment vs Lethality thread :/

 

(edit = grammar)

Edited January 30, 2012 by Kyuss

[Izumal]

Never has a healer (no matter how good) had a significant impact on my damage.

 

Really?