I'm Confused. How do you call for a Nerf with No Metrics?

[XenonParsec]

Thread title says it all. Everyone screaming for nerfs, please explain how you arrive at these conclusions without any combat log or parsed data?

 

If you're going by how you "feel," or what you've apparently experienced in PvP, aren't you guilty of the exact same thing some of you accuse the Devs of doing? Making balance adjustments based on feeling and impressions, instead of hard data? And if you still think the Devs are wrong, please explain how your impressions and feelings are more accurate?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited January 27, 2012 by XenonParsec

[XenonParsec]

Why am I not surprised this got zero replies.

[Jestunhi]

Thread title says it all. Everyone screaming for nerfs, please explain how you arrive at these conclusions without any combat log or parsed data?

 

If you're going by how you "feel," or what you've apparently experienced in PvP, aren't you guilty of the exact same thing some of you accuse the Devs of doing? Making balance adjustments based on feeling and impressions, instead of hard data? And if you still think the Devs are wrong, please explain how your impressions and feelings are more accurate?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Do you think actual data is the source for most nerf threads in any MMO?

 

Welcome to pvp forums. Anyone who kills me is OP and my class is UP.

[Kellindell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

 

You watch videos like this, which you could potentially record all the numbers you see flying around.

 

How anyone can watch this and not see this class needed to be toned down is beyond me.

 

In no world, no matter how often they can do it, should anyone get a win that easy. Let alone over and over and over again. The huttball footage is just one huttball match. So even if we saw ALL of that players kills, that is how many times they can just faceroll someone easily in one 15 minute match, assuming it went 15 minutes.

 

That is insanity, and it needed to be changed.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kellindell

[RoadtoArkham]

Things like this have always confused me...and I've come up with a theory.

 

The next big MMO is always put on a pedestal before it comes out and is always heralded as the fabled "WoW Killer".

 

None of them ever kills WoW.

 

And I think I know why.

 

This community we're seeing? The complainers, the QQers, the whiners, the people who can barely play, the people who make up crap to justify nerfing everyone but themselves, the trolls, the jerks...WoW made this people. I played that game. I wrote on their forums. I recognize the patterns.

 

The reason noone has ever killed WoW is that WoW created a wretched, entitled community that preemptively shuts down and kills other MMOs like a virus, hassling the developers and driving away other members of the community.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Thread title says it all. Everyone screaming for nerfs, please explain how you arrive at these conclusions without any combat log or parsed data?

 

If you're going by how you "feel," or what you've apparently experienced in PvP, aren't you guilty of the exact same thing some of you accuse the Devs of doing? Making balance adjustments based on feeling and impressions, instead of hard data? And if you still think the Devs are wrong, please explain how your impressions and feelings are more accurate?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

You don't need combat logs or parsed data to come up with a conclusion that is somewhat accurate.

 

The first clue that a class may, or may not be, overpowered is simply to look at populations. Sorcerers are a disproportionately high percentage of the player base. This is an indicator that the class needs to be looked at, though you are correct it does not confirm a need for the class to be nerfed.

 

The Sorcerer is simply in possession of too many abilities.

 

It can DPS from range.

It has better defensive abilities than a Jedi Guardian tank.

It has a lot of CC, including but not limited to knock backs, stuns, mezzes, snares, and roots.

It can also heal.

 

This is all done via a hybrid spec which makes it the best class presently in the game.

[ducksmyth]

PvP is the one place that we do have metrics. The score screen can be pretty telling. Edited January 27, 2012 by ducksmyth

[Darth_Philar]

It's called Confirmation Bias. If you believe that something is true then you will find evidence that proves it and are not able to see evidence that disproves it.

[Jestunhi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

 

You watch videos like this, which you could potentially record all the numbers you see flying around.

 

How anyone can watch this and not see this class needed to be toned down is beyond me.

 

In no world, no matter how often they can do it, should anyone get a win that easy. Let alone over and over and over again. The huttball footage is just one huttball match. So even if we saw ALL of that players kills, that is how many times they can just faceroll someone easily in one 15 minute match, assuming it went 15 minutes.

 

That is insanity, and it needed to be changed.

 

A video can raise a potential issue.

 

But unless it details every stat for all involved parties (so we know the expertise of both chars, the cunning, power, crit & surge of the op, the armour, health, damage reduction, shield rate, shield absorb, etc of the target) then it can't really be used as anything more than that.

[Cogbyrn]

Do you think actual data is the source for most nerf threads in any MMO?

 

Welcome to pvp forums. Anyone who kills me is OP and my class is UP.

 

Basically this. 95% of the people here have no idea what data-driven decisions are, and 99% of those are victim to sample spaces of 1 with regard to their balance decisions.

 

Game development companies create these sorts of forums so people can vent, not so they can gather good ideas. People seem to think that these forums are direct conduits to the developers with all of the entreaties for Bioware to "READ THIS POST OMG!"

 

Everyone has a professional opinion and knows exactly how to make this game perfect.

 

Unfortunately, 99% of them are idiots.

 

I avoid forums such as this except when I'm extremely bored and want distraction.

[Jestunhi]

PvP is the one place that we do have metrics. The score screen can be pretty telling.

 

Rarely.

 

It's far too easy to stat pad (damage with AoE, healing b y injuring self, etc) to use those numbers for anything.

[Roak]

according to Gabe the only solid nerf we have so far, Operative/scoundrel, is because they "weren't scored exactly correctly or some of the data was missed"

 

metrics.

 

Edited January 27, 2012 by Roak

[Kellindell]

It's called Confirmation Bias. If you believe that something is true then you will find evidence that proves it and are not able to see evidence that disproves it.

 

It could also be social desirability bias, in the sense that people come to the forums and ask for nerfs to something because they see the majority of people doing it and want to have a desired response.

[Cogbyrn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

 

You watch videos like this, which you could potentially record all the numbers you see flying around.

 

How anyone can watch this and not see this class needed to be toned down is beyond me.

 

In no world, no matter how often they can do it, should anyone get a win that easy. Let alone over and over and over again. The huttball footage is just one huttball match. So even if we saw ALL of that players kills, that is how many times they can just faceroll someone easily in one 15 minute match, assuming it went 15 minutes.

 

That is insanity, and it needed to be changed.

 

I had an Op trying to do this to me for an entire Huttball match. He got 0 kills.

 

You see these people get CC'd but don't break the CC. Why is that? Probably because they were CC'd prior and blew their CC break in a silly situation. Some of them come out of the CC, then backpedal around until they die.

 

As previously mentioned, we don't even know what sort of gear this person is wearing over the others.

 

You know absolutely nothing about the situations, you just see numbers, and you think you can draw conclusions.

 

I keep tabbing back to the window to watch this person fight others, and the other person seems to just flail around stupidly most of the time. No knockbacks, no CC, no anything in response besides being terrible players.

 

In short, we live in a gaming world of Veruca Salts. A slew of vocal bad eggs who wouldn't know how to analyze a situation because they're too busy touting their unsupported opinions based on emotional reactions to situations.

[RoadtoArkham]

In short, we live in a gaming world of Veruca Salts. A slew of vocal bad eggs who wouldn't know how to analyze a situation because they're too busy touting their unsupported opinions based on emotional reactions to situations.

 

^this. +1 for the reference.

 

Oom-pah-loompa-doopity-do

Ops need a nerf, Q Q Q

[JBloom]

The thing that really makes me laugh is that people really seem to believe that bioware uses these awful forums for information on which classes to nerf.

[XenonParsec]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3ti-dfdA&list=UU-zp15utO36E86N60p85P-A&index=1&feature=plcp

 

You watch videos like this, which you could potentially record all the numbers you see flying around.

 

All I saw were BIG DAMAGE NUMBERZ. The video is (of course) cropped so you can't see the rest of the information we need to make even a half way informed conclusion.

 

Is it really responsible to make balance decisions on a prepared and edited video that does nothing but highlight key moments, potentially from many many hours of mediocre game play?

[Jestunhi]

The thing that really makes me laugh is that people really seem to believe that bioware uses these awful forums for information on which classes to nerf.

 

/agree.

 

forum logic: If whine threads = high & nerf = applied then nerf was caused by whine threads and anyone saying anything different is a fanboi!

[Cogbyrn]

/agree.

 

forum logic: If whine threads = high & nerf = applied then nerf was caused by whine threads and anyone saying anything different is a fanboi!

 

Every forum should have an entrance exam that forces you to prove that you understand the relationship between correlation and causation.

[XenonParsec]

You don't need combat logs or parsed data to come up with a conclusion that is somewhat accurate.

 

The first clue that a class may, or may not be, overpowered is simply to look at populations. Sorcerers are a disproportionately high percentage of the player base. This is an indicator that the class needs to be looked at, though you are correct it does not confirm a need for the class to be nerfed.

 

This is more of what I'm talking about. First you assert there's a "high perentage" playing sorc. From what source do you draw this conclusion? A couple screen shots you saw posted, or can you link to a game resource that gives us the true population breakdown by class and AC?

 

Secondly, how do you make the leap in logic that a lot of sorcs = they must be OP. There was much forum whining about concealment Ops/Scoundrels, and they must be played less than sorc since you assert sorc is high percentage, yet a sorc cant knock you down and inject 10-15k worth of damage to you over one knockdown. So why didn't we see Ops everywhere? Please cite the data and sources for your conclusions.

 

The Sorcerer is simply in possession of too many abilities.

 

Based on what established metric? Please link to your source.

 

It can DPS from range.

It has better defensive abilities than a Jedi Guardian tank.

It has a lot of CC, including but not limited to knock backs, stuns, mezzes, snares, and roots.

It can also heal.

 

This is all done via a hybrid spec which makes it the best class presently in the game.

 

What method of measurement did you use to conclude sorc has more defense than a tank, or has "a lot" of CC (we really should quantify things with numbers before making balance changes, right?), or that it's the "best" class? What established measurement is there that determines the "best" class in a team pvp setting, and I assume you can show the numbers and data that determines this?

 

Looking forward to your reply!

Edited January 27, 2012 by XenonParsec

[genericcc]

Here is why you might think a class is OP. You have 2 different characters, gear equivalent, and yet you find that one of them is a lot more effective, does higher damage, better defensive/cc options, easier, whatever, than the other. To the point that in most situations you're better on one of the 2 classes. Ofc it could be one scales better with gear, or is better in different situations, or has a lower skill cap, or your computer can't handle it.

[Kolbenito]

Things like this have always confused me...and I've come up with a theory.

 

The next big MMO is always put on a pedestal before it comes out and is always heralded as the fabled "WoW Killer".

 

None of them ever kills WoW.

 

And I think I know why.

 

This community we're seeing? The complainers, the QQers, the whiners, the people who can barely play, the people who make up crap to justify nerfing everyone but themselves, the trolls, the jerks...WoW made this people. I played that game. I wrote on their forums. I recognize the patterns.

 

The reason noone has ever killed WoW is that WoW created a wretched, entitled community that preemptively shuts down and kills other MMOs like a virus, hassling the developers and driving away other members of the community.

 

I kinda see your point, and to be honest I don't read the WoW forums for this very reason. It's a deep pit of trolling and crying with the exception of a couple of specific forums.

 

Did it ever occur to you though that some of it is the new games really aren't as good as people hoped? Maybe some people saw the combination of Bioware and Star Wars and are floored that it isn't the best game ever made in the genre. As far as the leveling process goes it blows everything I have seen away, so they totally nailed that part.

 

What a lot of new MMOs do so badly is combat. Animations taking precedence over fluid, visceral combat is the dumb mistake everyone keeps making and the main thing WoW got right (built on the WC3 engine which astonishes me).

 

On topic, nerfs based on crying are pathetic so I genuinely hope that isn't what happened. Until we know otherwise I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they at least used their own data to make any decisions.

[savionen]

Nerf threads are based off who is decreasing a person's fun the most.

 

Do I think Sorcerors damage is OP? Not really.

 

Are they annoying as **** on every character I have? Yes.

Does every Empire team have 4-8 of them? Yes.

[RoadtoArkham]

Did it ever occur to you though that some of it is the new games really aren't as good as people hoped? Maybe some people saw the combination of Bioware and Star Wars and are floored that it isn't the best game ever made in the genre.

 

Yes, it certainly has. But it goes along with the "on a pedestal comment". We build up our hopes before each release, until the dream MMO is released, only for reality to ensue.

 

I am definitely one of the people that saw Bioware + Star Wars and promptly creamed myself. And I think they have done an excellent job. But the reality is never so great as the dream, sadly.

 

And that's still no excuse for the behavior of some individuals here. I had really hoped for a strong, supportive community, united in our desire to see this game succeed and our love of Star Wars. Instead, I got...well...reality. People aren't nice.

[BadNewzzz]

I attacked a sentinel today on ilum, good class with great balance to other, i beat hit easy

But 5 min after he was back and this time he beat me? ***? OP class!! sentinels really need to get nerfed

 

Nerf or i cancel sub BW!!oneone111!!!one111