Why is Crafted Gear not the best?

[Ethern]

I understand that people WANT the gear as a form of progression. My point is they neither NEED nor DESERVE it for that matter.

 

Once again, if gear is the only means of progression at max level that is a design flaw. Unfortunately, it is a design flaw that quite a lot of MMOs have.

I heard your point, but it does not solve anything.

 

As for the design, flaw; it's a themepark, all about loot, as the devs claimed. The flaw is to reserve the best gear to only one type of content, here aka raids. It does not have to be that way. It shows narrow-mindness/laziness.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Ethern

[PjPablo]

It does not have to be less challenging. Just because devs never bothered in making alternative content as difficult as in group content, does not mean it is impossible.

 

Didn't say it was impossible. It just doesn't exist today. That is why I have repeatedly said if folks have issues with progression options that a conversation for BW.

 

EDIT: As far as narrowmindedness and laziness...I completely agree.

Edited January 28, 2012 by PjPablo

[Spymaster]

Sorry I cannot explain my position any clearer.

 

Because it's false. You're telling me, a solo player who knows exactly how important gear is to my playstyle, that I don't need it. How can you even pretend to make such a claim?

 

All solo content is a cakewalk in this game and can be beaten with greens.

 

Stop right there. You're not understanding my POV at all. First of all, whether or not solo content is a "cakewalk" is a matter of design. It's usually that way in MMOs... it doesn't NEED to be. They can make solo content that requires better and better gear as you progress, if they want to. The fact that they do this while leveling (as you already pointed out) proves that they could design solo content to require BIS gear if they want to.

 

The other point you're missing is that solo players don't ONLY do solo content. We do group content too. Especially after level 50, when the solo content is done. We just solo it, or get as far as we can. The idea that I don't need anything better than greens to do that is completely wrong.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Spymaster

[Spymaster]

Exactly, not nearly as many people would run end game content. They would just to solo and craft the best gear. This would ruin the game for sure.

 

So letting people chose how they play as opposed to forcing them to raid whether they want to or not would ruin the game? Makes no sense.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Spymaster

[amnie]

Because best things in MMORPGs comes from aspects that needs grouping.

 

then let's do it like in FFXI. unless you had a loooot of time on your hands you definitely needed more than one person to craft the truly epic items. and a 'lot' of time in FFXI used to mean a lot more than it does in most newer MMOs (think months)

[PjPablo]

then let's do it like in FFXI. unless you had a loooot of time on your hands you definitely needed more than one person to craft the truly epic items. and a 'lot' of time in FFXI used to mean a lot more than it does in most newer MMOs (think months)

 

I'd be ok with the ridiculous timesink approach. Let BOP gear that is pretty much on par with BIS raid gear be allowed to be crafted, but make it take a month to craft one piece. Something like that would work to me.

[Ethern]

Didn't say it was impossible. It just doesn't exist today. That is why I have repeatedly said if folks have issues with progression options that a conversation for BW.

 

EDIT: As far as narrowmindedness and laziness...I completely agree.

We can agree. Therefore to get back on the concerns raised by the OP, namely why crafted gear is not the best; as long as such design is adopted, aka raids >> all, we can safely conclude that crafted gear is useless at endgame.

By extension, most of the crafting in that kind of design is useless.

[Spymaster]

then let's do it like in FFXI. unless you had a loooot of time on your hands you definitely needed more than one person to craft the truly epic items. and a 'lot' of time in FFXI used to mean a lot more than it does in most newer MMOs (think months)

 

I'd be ok with the ridiculous timesink approach. Let BOP gear that is pretty much on par with BIS raid gear be allowed to be crafted, but make it take a month to craft one piece. Something like that would work to me.

 

/agree

[grandmthethird]

its the age old argument. and really its a preference thing

 

player A) crafted gear should be the best coz it takes a long long long time to make.

 

player B) looted gear should be the best or there is no reason to do the dungeons

 

the fact is, there is no correct answer to this argument. some1 will always be upset. but the best MMO would alternate between loot gear and crafted gear being the best in the game, in updated patches and expansions

[amnie]

I'd be ok with the ridiculous timesink approach. Let BOP gear that is pretty much on par with BIS raid gear be allowed to be crafted, but make it take a month to craft one piece. Something like that would work to me.

 

oh I'd definitely be a fan, that's why I mentioned it.

 

I loved crafting in FFXI. ok, it was a bit borderlining waiting for a certain moon phase and stuff like that, but i'm sure if BW really wanted to they could figure something out.

 

LotRo has (had?) a similar crafting system with legacy items needing special mods from crafting. while you could do three crafting jobs, you could only join a crafting guild for one of them, and could only start crafting the legendary item parts after spending weeks upgrading your standing with said guild. I really like that one, aswell. (and the epic recipes had a one week cool-down)

[wifeaggro]

Why cant games get this right? Player crafted gear should be the best possible in game armor. Everything craftable should be the best possible. Still having good gear drop from PvE but being able to break it down into crafting supplies. Or strait up credit rewards or something. After level 50 in this game crafted gear is a waste.

 

Example: If you ever played DAoC and built a template. Crafted gear had to be in the template to get things right. You had drops from PvE in there etc etc but you put Crafted gear in to fill in holes in your stats.

 

I dont really want DAoC style, I loved making templates dont get me wrong but I dont want a stat cap. If I want to put Aim on every single piece and only have Aim as a stats and gimp the rest why cant I do that. (I wouldnt btw)

 

Anyways, I do enjoy the game as it is. Hit 50 last week and my Trooper struggled at first in WZ's but in about half Champ gear now it aint so bad. I like the grind of PvP'ing for something but I dont want it to be gear. Id be happy just PvP'ing for a nerver ending Valor rank. Or PvP for titles for everyone to see. Something like that, you get gear from everything else. Dont need it for PvP. Having crafted gear be the best and able to put what stats you wanted you could make your own sets for both PvE and PvP putting more into End for certain things or Aim for example for PvP. Dont need Expertise either.

 

PvP needs to be SKILL based not gear based.

there are several things wrong with gear at the moment and the rate of aquiring. its pretty botched once you figure it out. PVP gear is insanely easy to grind and can be better then some of the FP commendation gear in PVE. Crafting should be an alternate way to aquire the second tier raiding gear, it should never be the best it will make the pve content pointless.

[amnie]

oh I'd definitely be a fan, that's why I mentioned it.

 

I loved crafting in FFXI. ok, it was a bit borderlining waiting for a certain moon phase and stuff like that, but i'm sure if BW really wanted to they could figure something out.

 

LotRo has (had?) a similar crafting system with legacy items needing special mods from crafting. while you could do three crafting jobs, you could only join a crafting guild for one of them, and could only start crafting the legendary item parts after spending weeks upgrading your standing with said guild. I really like that one, aswell. (and the epic recipes had a one week cool-down)

 

 

 

edit: I don't even think crafted gear has to be the .best.

but it should be at least equal or relatively equal.

 

either you have 'epic' gear hard to come by to begin with - or you should be able to get it equally 'hard' from all ways (crafting, PVE, PVP)... I really don't see a reason why one set should be superiour to the other in all regards.

 

I remember when games even had bonusses for crafting only (iirc FFXIV had those still but I don't know if they changed that)

 

some people only care about one of the three aspects in games... and it always saddens me when people are limited too much. if I was still as much of a 'hardcore' crafter as I was back in FFXI I would not be happy with ToR at all (half of my lvl ups I used to do with crafting back when it was still possible. we had people in our linkshell that didn't do any PVE .at all. and only crafted...)

 

edit2: ok I guess I pressed quote instead of edit and didn't even notice. bwahahaha

Edited January 28, 2012 by amnie

[Karraway]

At the end of the day getting gear through raiding is not really that hard,yes you may have to have a few runs before you get the drops you need but after figureing out the boss any half decent guild can progress easy.Therefore if you made crafting time consuming enough there is no good reason that people should not be able to craft equally good and possibly different looking gear.

People would still raid because you get the gear quicker that way and people like myself who have had my complete fill of raiding after doing it for years could still get decent gear it would just take more time.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Karraway

[gurugeorge]

its the age old argument. and really its a preference thing

 

player A) crafted gear should be the best coz it takes a long long long time to make.

 

player B) looted gear should be the best or there is no reason to do the dungeons

 

the fact is, there is no correct answer to this argument. some1 will always be upset. but the best MMO would alternate between loot gear and crafted gear being the best in the game, in updated patches and expansions

 

There is no argument because B is correct for this type of MMO ("themepark"- EQ, WoW, most MMOs since WoW), it couldn't be any other way, it's the logic of the game.

 

A is correct for sandbox MMOs (UO, SWG, EVE), because, again, it couldn't be any other way, it's the logic of the game.

 

Different fundemental game design logically requires a different attitude to crafted gear.

[Khayleth]

At the end of the day getting gear through raiding is not really that hard,yes you may have to have a few runs before you get the drops you need but after figureing out the boss any half decent guild can progress easy.

 

I disagree. People that really bang their head against the wall and beat hardmode/nightmare mode content which most players aren't going to see do deserve the best gear and titles as recognition for their achievement. (Normal mode though, should be able to beaten by at least a moderate to average skilled group).

 

A lot of vitriol in this thread and so it got me thinking, the solo players want gear but don't want to raid and the raiders don't think they deserve the best gear, rather than argue I decided to be solution oriented. Make raids drop craftable BoE recipes for all slots nearly as good as the raid gear and visually different, this has two purposes.

 

1. It provides raiders ways of filling gear slots until they get their drop.

 

2. Solo players can get gear that way, granted they have to buy it but if the mats are available outside of raid (which they should be) they can pay someone to craft it.

[Valkanna]

Crafted gear shouldn't be the best but it should be an option, it should be relevant

 

ATM crafting is pointless except for bio for stims and medpacs. Armor/synth being a possibility because modable belt/bracers are rare, also if you care about the look of you character (though ofc atm it's virtually pointless as high end gear gives no options because armour is part of the gear not a mod)

Everything else is pointless. Not just because HMs and PvP give better gear but even the dailies get's better gear...

 

Quick group for some daily heroics and do the rest solo and you have majority of what you need. barrels/hilts, armour, mod, enhancment, ears, implants..

Pick up some relics from LS/DS vendor, hunt for belt & bracers and you have what you need with a grand total of ZERO flaspoints or warzones.

 

There should be aproximately equal options for gearing up. right now the options are:

Warzones

Flashpoints

Dailies

 

Crafting is NOT an option, it's only usefulness is to make leveling easier, that's it...

[veyl]

If crafted gear had more relevance at end game, you wouldn't see every raider with half a brain as a Biochemist. (Rakata flask + alacrity/power/crit/surge juice > every other profession in raids) There would be a lot more diversity and REASON to be something other than Biochem.

 

Bioware had been told about this in Beta from people with a raiders perspective, the answer was "we'll keep an eye on it."

 

There absolutely should be crafting recipes at end game for people who do and do not raid.

 

For the people that do raid: Only available in Hard/Nightmare mode. Make the materials be found off bosses inside the place and if it's potentially a BiS piece, have that main item only drop within Nightmare modes.

 

For the people that do not raid: Have alternative ways to get the materials for a high quality crafting recipe. IE: You have to complete different Hard modes within a specific time limit. Think of it like the original bear mount for ZA. This would inspire a group of determined individuals to push their limits to the max in order to craft something very pretty. or, have the materials be at an abundant amount so that even completing hard modes and receiving the crafting material would have to be done over the course of a few weeks. You could then have the crafting time of the epic be something extremely long. (the longest one is 40 minutes I believe? Make it 4 days and only allowed to craft one per 4 days so the market isnt flooded.)

[Chromiie]

There is no argument because B is correct for this type of MMO ("themepark"- EQ, WoW, most MMOs since WoW), it couldn't be any other way, it's the logic of the game.

 

A is correct for sandbox MMOs (UO, SWG, EVE), because, again, it couldn't be any other way, it's the logic of the game.

 

Different fundemental game design logically requires a different attitude to crafted gear.

 

No that's just wrong. It just takes a studio to have the balls to try it.

[Lokai]

 

Dont need it for PvP. Having crafted gear be the best and able to put what stats you wanted you could make your own sets for both PvE and PvP putting more into End for certain things or Aim for example for PvP. Dont need Expertise either.

 

PvP needs to be SKILL based not gear based.

 

While i am all for crafted gear being some of best you can get(in fact i'd be giddy if that was the case as it creates a player based economy) i however need to stop you right there...and say YES yes pvp does in fact need gear. Reason why is that if you take the gear away, and make it sheerly " titles and modable items" basically destroy reason many of us pvp.

 

Also whole issue of not everyone liking pve and some of us DON'T want to do it! i personality HATE raiding, and refuse to do it. Why should i be forced to raid to compete in pvp? that's right i shouldn't have to! Is why pvp stat exists stops pve raiders from walking in and DOMINATING pvp! you say you want it to be skill based, and well that is all well and good! however if you remove expertise you actually make it less skill based. Why? because anyone that raids instantly is better then anyone that doesn't!

 

if you want to pvp, then pvp to attain pvp gear to be good at pvp...

 

if you want to pve... raid and get raid gear and be good at pve...

 

if you want to be good at both, then do both and get a set for each and call it a day.

 

/thread.

 

Edit:

 

btw if anyone actually read his thread what he was meaning with " crafted gear should be the best " is that end game tier gear should be CRAFTED! not dropped or attained from a vender.

 

X boss drops X materials, and crafters turn those materials into tier gear. Now means that you are forced to craft in your guild and could theoretically buy teir gear on GTN however, that said still need to RAID to get materials to make the gear, and those mats could be bop! so still means you have to raid in order to get best stuff, just way its gained is better in my opinion!

Edited January 28, 2012 by Lokai

[crowncrow]

its the age old argument. and really its a preference thing

 

player A) crafted gear should be the best coz it takes a long long long time to make.

 

player B) looted gear should be the best or there is no reason to do the dungeons

 

the fact is, there is no correct answer to this argument. some1 will always be upset. but the best MMO would alternate between loot gear and crafted gear being the best in the game, in updated patches and expansions

 

Exactly, innovating means creating something new end exiting, BTW such "improvements" always threaten the status quo of the hardcore players: "if it doesn't fit what I know it must be bad" - change and resistance go hand in hand. So far Bioware has been rather conservative and careful, they simply try to copy and improve upon the biggest, which is WOW. It is an understandable strategy if you simply want to make a lot of money of the theme park loving players. The real question is: will they challenged themselves and dare to create something "out of the (sand)box" to enrich our experience beyond hack and slash.

Edited January 28, 2012 by crowncrow

[Truga]

Didn't say it was impossible. It just doesn't exist today. That is why I have repeatedly said if folks have issues with progression options that a conversation for BW.

 

EDIT: As far as narrowmindedness and laziness...I completely agree.

 

Actually, this content already exists. Ever tried to do a flashpoint solo at-level? It's often quite doable, but not unless you're in the best possible gear for your level, and so is your companion.

[Gleneagle]

Gear is there is allow folks to take on ever more difficult content. If you aren't tackling that content then you don't need the gear.

...

I didn't realize I was speaking to a demigod who gets to decide for everyone what mere mortals need.

 

I still don't believe I am. I have a suspicion you are just another mere mortal.

[PjPablo]

I didn't realize I was speaking to a demigod who gets to decide for everyone what mere mortals need.

 

I still don't believe I am. I have a suspicion you are just another mere mortal.

 

Why do you need the gear then?

[Gleneagle]

Why do you need the gear then?

 

It isn't about need, it is a game.

 

You don't get to judge whether my reasons are good enough. I do.

[PjPablo]

It isn't about need, it is a game.

 

You don't get to judge whether my reasons are good enough. I do.

 

You want. You don't need.

 

I may not get to decide but BW does.