Lagmonster Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=237425 Figure I'd just link this thread for my fellow stealth buddies, worth a good laugh. Edited January 26, 2012 by Lagmonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=63 Figure I'd just link this thread for my fellow stealth buddies, worth a good laugh. You didn't link the thread, you just linked to the Operative forum. Anyhow, the thread that you meant to link to is probably this one. Looks like it's generally more whining than it is constructive criticism. Since there's no damage log right now, I'm not sure that those whiners really have a leg to stand on when they accuse Bioware of being clueless about sustainted PVE DPS. Edited January 26, 2012 by Azaranth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) You didn't link the thread, you just linked to the Operative forum. Anyhow, the thread that you meant to link to is probably this one. Looks like it's generally more whining than it is constructive criticism. Since there's no damage log right now, I'm not sure that those whiners really have a leg to stand on when they accuse Bioware of being clueless about sustainted PVE DPS. Your right, not sure why it linked to there lol. copy and pasted the link right out of the thread. We don't have constructive game design at this point in terms of balancing. Our abilities are being balanced based on a score system, and he said they'll look at it later if it effects Pve. Sounds like pretty "constructive and thought out" game design /sarcasm off Edited January 26, 2012 by Lagmonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecup Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Since there's no damage log right now, I'm not sure that those whiners really have a leg to stand on when they accuse Bioware of being clueless about sustainted PVE DPS. While I think it's a bit wrong to twist the words in an interview too much, I'd say a fair criticism here would be that the response about PvE getting nerfed as a result of PvP actually focuses on how they went about finding out a PvP nerf was needed, with PvE merely as an afterthought. But it would be wise to avoid namecalling and such in this thread. Discussing the points made in such an interview is valid enough as long as we focus on them and only them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 While I think it's a bit wrong to twist the words in an interview too much, I'd say a fair criticism here would be that the response about PvE getting nerfed as a result of PvP actually focuses on how they went about finding out a PvP nerf was needed, with PvE merely as an afterthought. But it would be wise to avoid namecalling and such in this thread. Discussing the points made in such an interview is valid enough as long as we focus on them and only them. yep, that is what is so annoying about this entire thing. Not taking how a balance decision effects the class in both areas of the game. With no combat logs to prove the viability of the class. People will just view it as the "nerfed" melee class, and regret or just flat out refuse to bring the class into operations as dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaranth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) People will just view it as the "nerfed" melee class, and regret or just flat out refuse to bring the class into operations as dps. I find that unlikely. I find it hard to believe that the 20% armor pen reduction on Flachette Round is going to leave Scoundrels unable to get a DPS slot in raids. (The Shoot First nerf has no significant effect on sustained raid DPS) Anyhow, the entire thread there is filled with people hearing what they want to hear, not what Gabe was trying to say. He describes that both abilities and classes are scored by various metrics in both PVE and PVP (@10:26). He goes on to say that the changes involved should not bring the class outside of expected score ranges (@11:28), and that if it DOES bring the class outside of those ranges, then they'll make further changes. He also explicitly said (@12:45) that they are balancing around both PVE and PVP, and if a skillset cannot be balanced for both, then they'll address the issue. (but that they don't think that will be necessary). Trying to twist those explicit statements into "Balance is based on a PVP score system!" is a heinous misrepresentation. It seems to me that people are just looking for an excuse to be mad about getting nerfed. Edit: To be clear, I don't take issue with anyone arguing against a nerf. I just bristle at people misrepresenting what was actually said. Edited January 26, 2012 by Azaranth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorna Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 "But this one did go over and above, because it did not, uh, did not apply those modifiers correctly if you will." It required stealth and a positional... and now it does barely more damage than back blast. I'm uncertain which modifiers he's talking about. In fact, back blast will become a more reliable damage source because of the 2 piece pve set bonus. With that said, I'm a sawbones specced Scoundrel, and I had the delightful situation yesterday where a sorc I never even 'shot first' said to me in a wz that he couldn't wait for the nerfs to my class. Oh, did I ever enjoy telling him that my spec wasn't getting nerfed (just my ability to possibly kill my infernal council mob on higher difficulties...). But it made me think, perhaps part of the issue here is that people can't differentiate the skill sets. A full stabby Scou/Op with the survivability (weak though it may be against other healers) and utility of a healing Scou/Op? Yes, that would look overpowered. It can't exist, but it would look overpowered. Perhaps the devs are confused as well? And yes, that is a depressing thought. I should also note, that even with the current ability of the Scrapper/Concealment spec, using them in high end pve is kind of gimping yourself. Pretty much every fight favors range, and even the ones that don't, the spec doesn't have anything that someone else can't do better. EV: Annihilator droid- Favors ranged. Gharj- Definitely favors ranged. Infernal Council- Positional based class is screwed. Soa- Ha! you'd think a boss that gave you small windows to burst them would favor the spec, it doesn't because the crystal drops and instakills dps, so you have to run in during the small window to do damage. So again, heavily favors range. KP: Bonethrasher- With the set up, you don't want people moving for the most part, so doesn't favor positional damage. Jarg & Sorno- A boss that doesn't punish melee (odd indeed), unfortunately the one thing that's really needed here, interrupts, JKs can do better. Foreman Crusher- Favors ranged. Fabricator droid- Fire drops insta kill, have to stay out of range until it's dropped. Also can't do the puzzle up top and also dps like ranged can. Karagga- Heavily favors ranged. Very Heavily. We've never done any of the ops with a scrapper, and honestly, I suspect it would drag us down considerably. On the other hand, currently we've been liking a dual slinger set up for the scrambling fields and other utility. I personally like slingers more than commandos in ops as a healer. So, if they ever allow AC changes, the nerfed dps Scrappers/Concealment Ops will not have a dead character. And yes, that is another depressing thought. They need to desperately stop making bosses that so heavily favor ranged, and they need to buff the damage Scou/Op for pve. Changes already needed to be made to make them useful in pve, that they're getting nerfed here is a travesty, and shows the complete ineptitude of the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecup Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 [*]He describes that both abilities and classes are scored by various metrics in both PVE and PVP (@10:26). He specifically talks about the PvP team using the scoring system. THEN he talks about PvE and how they'll be monitoring it. So it can really go both ways. To me it sounds like they balanced the class due to PvP only, then hoped it would be good enough for PvE, but I'll admit that it isn't 100% clear. Edit: To be clear, I don't take issue with anyone arguing against a nerf. I just bristle at people misrepresenting what was actually said. I can understand that. But as I've pointed out, your own view was also an interpretation. But this is my conclusion for now: It's not 100% clear what was actually meant, so it's pointless to argue about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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