The sith seem so inefficient

[DrFaroohk]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

[AngelousWang]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

Every Sith must be perfect, one failure, one sign of weakness and death.

 

This is the Sith way, might makes wright, stronger survive the weak perish.

 

This is they way the Sith have been since they were formed and is still the way they are in the last Sith Order (last that has been created in EU anyway, could still be more after the One Sith, who knows).

[blaquelotus]

That's part of the moral play. The Darkside is easier to master, and as such its seductive. Since technically anyone who is Force sensitive can easily take to the Dark Side the Sith attempt to inject some form of "discipline" in order to produce masters of a similar quality to the Jedi. Their chosen method is a sort of extreme Objectivism path.

 

However, the Dark Side is still largely self destructive (evidenced by the body's corruption with excessive use). Which is why the Light Side always prevails in the end. But inevitably there is always some Jedi who eventually thinks he/she knows how to approach the Dark Side in a way that will lead to perfection. At the end of the day though the same mistakes are made.

 

Star Wars has always been a tale of good vs evil with the lesson that evil no matter how attractively packaged leads to a bad end. So if you're looking at the Sith as a practical and sustainable philosophy then yes its completely absurd. If however you take it for what it is, an embodiment of self indulgence, and fear then you can appreciate its place in the Star Wars mythology.

[Battilea]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

Worth noting that the Sith train people the Jedi don't bother with. People the Jedi consider too weak. And, based on the movies, most likely too told and such as well.

 

The Sith aren't as worried about people's mindsets, unlike the Jedi, who have to worry about falling to the darkside. Not many darkside fall into the lightside. So the Sith can take older recruits, rather than needing to indoctrinate young, moldable minds. And the Sith want some fodder just to show the cost of failure, to inspire. So they "train" some weaker ones just so they can be an object lesson to the stronger. And, hey, maybe sometimes the weaker ones aren't as weak as they appeared to be at first...

 

So the ratio most likely isn't 5:1 on the battlefield. It'd probably be closer to 2:1, due to all the people the Jedi reject. And, as far as that goes, the Sith will most likely tend to be better warriors, while Jedi most likely have a portion of people that focus on being librarians and diplomats, that sort of thing.

 

What really hurts the Sith is their infighting after graduation. When things go well, they tend to turn on each other, play political games, and this allows the other side to avoid defeat, wastes resources. So not the lives lost during training, but rather the mindset the training encourages.

[Baz_Kahuna]

That's part of the moral play. The Darkside is easier to master, and as such its seductive.

 

I actually thought the Darkside was more powerful, but that power came with a cost. Hence it was seductive, in the 'it'll never happen to me' sort of way.

 

Also Darkside is isolationary and the Lightside triumphs due to its collective nature. Sith embrace individual power and the Jedi collectivism.

 

This may be wrong, its just my take on it.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

Worth noting that the Sith train people the Jedi don't bother with. People the Jedi consider too weak. And, based on the movies, most likely too told and such as well.

We really haven't seen anything to indicate that the Jedi of this era won't train people who are "too weak" in the force. I can't recall seeing a single NPC who says that they are force sensitive but not storng enough to be taken in by the Jedi. Maybe the Jedi have a higher standard for considering someone force sensitive though. *shrug*

 

However I do know that the Jedi of this era have no problem with a eprson's age cosnidering you regularly run accross teenage or young adult NPCs who were just recruited into the Jedi Order after their force sensitivity was discovered. Heck I can think of two companions that fall into this category.

[Nyaralath]

What really hurts the Sith is their infighting after graduation. When things go well, they tend to turn on each other, play political games, and this allows the other side to avoid defeat, wastes resources. So not the lives lost during training, but rather the mindset the training encourages.

 

Excellent post, I agree with all previous points made. I just wanted to point out that this is why the rule of two Sith came about, where there would only be the master with knowledge of the dark side, and the apprentice, who sought the knowledge.

 

I think that the galactic population is nearly limitless, so the Sith don't see death as a waste, rather a means to an end, the end being a small base of elite strong warriors rather than a large army of weak soldiers. And remember, anyone who doesn't cut it as a Sith gets "recruited" into the army core.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Nyaralath

[blaquelotus]

I actually thought the Darkside was more powerful, but that power came with a cost. Hence it was seductive, in the 'it'll never happen to me' sort of way.

 

Also Darkside is isolationary and the Lightside triumphs due to its collective nature. Sith embrace individual power and the Jedi collectivism.

 

This may be wrong, its just my take on it.

 

Well some of the EU stuff does seems to take that spin, so I see you're point. To be honest I base my theorizing on Force from the OT, and while I do read EU media I tend to view as alternate universe not "real". But that is admittedly that's just my perception.

[ActionAce]

The only time it is adressed in OT Yoda states flatly that the dark side is not stronger, and warns Luke that it dominates ones destiny. I always took that to mean the Darkside gives one a false sense of greater power, much like a drug user who thinks that a substance makes them feel they are better while using, when in fact it is a self destructive delusion.

[Zantul]

Im going to make a BIG spoiler and it has to do with the Dark Side....

 

I did promise I would never share this again but hell I am in a good mood.

 

Tattoo what I am about to say on yourself and let it be your mantra...

 

The Dark Side is like poison, the more you dilute it the weaker it becomes.

[Jedlosson]

It is like going to medical university in my country.

 

Several thousand people sign up for entrance exams.

Only several hundred of these people are accepted.

More than half is expelled during first years.

Only about one hundred people become doctors.

 

The system is not supposed to produce mass ammount of bad doctors. It is supposed to produce very capable and skilled new doctors. Quality over quantity. I would say the system is effective because it performs exactly as it is supposed to.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Jedlosson

[StSathar]

At some point it probably traces back to the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

[Lomedae]

We really haven't seen anything to indicate that the Jedi of this era won't train people who are "too weak" in the force. I can't recall seeing a single NPC who says that they are force sensitive but not storng enough to be taken in by the Jedi. .

 

How about a cave full of them in Balmorra, that enough for you? :-)

Quest is "Secret of Cave 52", where it is spelled out by an NPC that unlike the Sith Jedi don't take anyone to train and those in the cave are too weak to be trained.

[Backbones]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

The Sith as portrayed in this game are staggeringly inefficient and often just outright stupid. I have come to expect the most moronic, ***-on-head choice from any Sith I encounter in the game.

[Smugglecat]

I sort of agree.

 

I know it goes against everything Star Wars and how the universe even works.... But really, if the Jedi ran the Republic without senatorial interference, and the Sith were tools of a stronger Imperial Navy and there was no Dark Council....

 

I think both would be a lot stronger.

 

The Sith seem to waste a great deal of time on personal vendettas and power struggles, even though there are literally amazing leaders and strategists in the military that are either being killed, utilized improperly, or ignored. I know it's the Sith way and it wouldn't be as fun without it (having played a Sith Warrior and enjoying it immensely). It's just that the Empire would be waaaaaaaay stronger.

 

You could just switch the way their governments/power structures work, in a way.

[Ranadiel_Marius]

How about a cave full of them in Balmorra, that enough for you? :-)

Quest is "Secret of Cave 52", where it is spelled out by an NPC that unlike the Sith Jedi don't take anyone to train and those in the cave are too weak to be trained.

 

Ummm those NPCs are people fleeing the Sith Empire and being taken in by the Republic because they are either too weak in the force or too old to survive Sith training. Their choices in the Empire are to go train on Korriban, be killed for being force sensitive and refusing to go to Korriban, or running to Republic space.

 

I don't remember any comments about Jedi in that specific quest, but that quest was more about the politics about the Empire on force sensitives then anything else.

[GengisKahn]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

 

Wouldnt be more inneficient to train all 5 of them only to be killed in 2 secodns by a master jedi?

 

Also, one sith lord converted one jedi and killed almost every single one of the rest in the films.

 

Cant be much more efficient than that.

Edited January 26, 2012 by GengisKahn

[apantoliani]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

How do you think that one elite Sith becomes elite? Playing tea party with the other 4?

 

I can imagine the difference between Sith and Jedi is the Sith washouts die and are forgotten and the Jedi ones go become butthurt moisture farmers on Tatooine... and are forgotten. "I was a Jedi Padawan like you once, then I took a lightsaber to the knee..."

 

Either way, no one cares about them anymore.

[Nyaralath]

The only time it is adressed in OT Yoda states flatly that the dark side is not stronger, and warns Luke that it dominates ones destiny. I always took that to mean the Darkside gives one a false sense of greater power, much like a drug user who thinks that a substance makes them feel they are better while using, when in fact it is a self destructive delusion.

 

I kind of took it as the light side of the force has a kind of code of conduct. When you dedicate yourself to light side teachings you bind yourself to said rules, such as becoming self-less and using the force only for defense, never for attack.

 

When you take the dark side path there are no rules. You are bound by no code of conduct, the only pursuit is that for power, so in that way the Sith, while not necessarily stronger, can have an edge over their Jedi opponents, as they are willing to use the force in any way to get the job done. Their potential application of force abilities is unlimited; they do not frown on re-animating flesh, or creating deadly viruses using the force, where a Jedi would see these acts as "unnatural" and abominable.

[Cythereal]

How do you think that one elite Sith becomes elite? Playing tea party with the other 4?

 

I can imagine the difference between Sith and Jedi is the Sith washouts die and are forgotten and the Jedi ones go become butthurt moisture farmers on Tatooine... and are forgotten. "I was a Jedi Padawan like you once, then I took a lightsaber to the knee..."

 

Either way, no one cares about them anymore.

 

A quest on Tython talks about the latter part - you run into a Padawan, and if you take the light side path, he washes out. He is sent back to the Temple to become one of the Order's menial servants.

[wrong_turn]

If I understand how things work at the academy, a master, of which there are probably at least several, will take on a handful of recruits and train them to be sith. Say, 5 people. He picks one and everyone else dies, or is killed along the way.

 

Isn't that a tad inefficient? I know they're all about power but come on, 4 crappy Sith and 1 Elite Sith are better than just 1 Elite Sith. Don't they ever wonder why they're outnumbered 5 to 1 on the battlefield?

 

Yes, it is but the Sith philosophy is very much social darwinsim. A Sith is either strong and adaptable (not necessarily physically) or the end up dead. There are also rules though at the Academy at least. Cadets can't out right kill each other. The trails though are intentionally designed though to be potentially lethal. If a cadet dies in the process, well they weren't really Sith. And the instructors that are simply dead set on murdering you are themselves cut down because that's not a judicious or effective use of resources.

 

But your point is taken and its reflected in the game. A couple of the NPCs you interact with note that the Sith have been forced to allow aliens/slaves into the Academy on Korriban because they need to increase their numbers and their previous practices were too restrictive.

[smartalectwo]

It's worth bearing in mind that like the Jedi, the Sith are a religious cult. They do as they do because they have faith in their chosen beliefs, and believe that those beliefs will carry them to win.

 

If they discarded their beliefs to win, what'd be the point? The whole idea is to prove they're right and the Jedi are wrong.

Edited January 26, 2012 by smartalectwo

[jkcheng]

Not sure the analogy of medical school should be used here, as the potential doctors that don't make it aren't killed. They can still contribute to society through other means. The Sith acolytes that don't make it as Sith can still serve the Empire in other ways, provided they were alive to do so. Who's to say some of them couldn't have become bounty hunters or Imperial agents that serves the Empire.

 

Another easy way to point out the Sith is inefficient is this, whether you're play on Rep or Imp, you fight the Sith/Empire. Basically if Jedi doesn't destroy the Sith, the Sith will.